The Revealed Revelations of God

[McBell]

Response: To contrary, what we have witnessed from your last post is what we've witnessed throughout all of them. A consistancy to put forth ignorance. The humor of it is how you try time and time again to belittle one's credibility, despite being the obvious and least credible person on the forum. You see, that simple fact has not been unrecognized. And besides, when I can quote your own words in which you yourself have acknowledged that you've lost the debate, then the question of who is the least credible becomes rather absurd.

We add to that the consistant failure to prove the qur'an wrong, the consistancy to dodge the challenge which proves the qur'an is from Allah, all the while claiming that you can prove it, and above all, if one were to ask of your religion, we get no answer. So let's recap. When asked to prove the qur'an is not from Allah, we get nothing. When asked to partake in the challenge which proves the qur'an to be from Allah, you either run away.....or provide nothing. You're to ashamed to acknowledge your own religion or beliefs, yet at the same time denouncing someone else's, and to cap it off, you present a post (you're last post) with no intent of addressing the opening post, but to address Fatihah's post, proving you're infatuation of me. Yet my credibility is the below zero? You are more entertaining then you know.

There's the statement. Where's the proof?

Your not having any proof proves you are wrong and your denial prevents you from seeing it.

 

[Fatihah]

There's the statement. Where's the proof?

Your not having any proof proves you are wrong and your denial prevents you from seeing it.

Response: Still trolling? The fact that you're still doing so is my proof.

 

[biomystic]

It is frustrating trying to debate Islamic doctrines with Muslims. They do seem unable to grasp the concept of logic in such debates and rely like Fatihah, on repetition of Islamic dogma, e.g. "the Quran is miraculous and without errors thus proving it is from Allah", as if this repetition somehow "proved" their argument. Maybe it's the way Muslims are schooled, maybe they don't have debating societies at school, but whatever the reason after debating with Muslims on Internet talkboards for years now I come away with the conclusion Islamic doctrines cannot stand the heat of open inquiry from non-Muslims. Many Islamic doctrines just don't hold up under moral scrutiny and are held by blind faith and/or cultural inheritance alone, e.g. the concepts that Islam is a religion of peace, no compulsion in religion, which is proven wrong in some Muslim majority nation every day of the week. Having no real defense against these realities Muslims retreat into Islamic slogans and/or accusations everyone else is not addressing these Islamic slogans or accepting them as proof of the Quran's superiority over any other religious text. And of course we don't accept slogans as proof of anything, not without supporting evidence of historic and current Muslims actions following their Quranic beliefs.

 

[biomystic]

I was simply pointing out that you do not know where Jesus of Nazareth's sermon came from. Perhaps he "wanted more than anything to start a religious movement organized around his vision." I was also pointing out that the Sermon of the Mount has not "inspired" acts of compassion more than any doctrine. the rest of g If it had not existed good people would still be good and bad people bad. Do you believe that no one was good and compassionate before the sermon was given?

Where were the Jews known for their compassionate acts to Gentiles, i.e. the rest of humankind? Were the Greeks known for their compassionate acts? Or any ancient society in the known world at that time? Yet even suffering Pauline Christians with their propensity to be used as pawns in territorial warfare of emperors, popes, kings, queens and presidents, the world has still come to know what the "Christian" thing to do means. And it means acting with compassion.


The sermon spires the compassion perhaps of Christian who would likely not be compassionate if it wasn't for it. But that says more about Christians, and their historical hypocrisy, than it does about this sermon of goodness. However, Christian’s compassion based on this sermon, in order to achieve their religious desires, is perhaps in contradiction to the sermon its self. The sermon does not say "be good for goodness sake". It hints that one must be good, to achieve profit.

Please separate Pauline Christianity from Christians who follow the teachings of Christ. They are not the same thing and a very good indicator of the difference is those Christians for whom wealth of society was to be shared communistically and those who advocated blending in to existing money systems, i.e. the choice between serving Caesar or God.

I do hope your not basing your bizarre notion that Jesus taught people to be good to achieve profit on the parable stories Jesus used to make moral points. In the parables Jesus uses a kind of moral capitalist model but his direct teachings to his followers he consistently sides with the givers and not the takers of wealth.


You completely just showed how absurd certainty is. How absurd you are. I do NOT have certainty that the sun will rise and set. i do not have certainty that gravity pulls us to earth. There are very good alternatives, perhaps space pushes us away! But being as I can't imagine how to present such a hypothesis, I am not going to contradict the theory of gravity.

Thank God for that! You had me worrying there for a minute.

By your comment on my signature it is clear that you desire bliss.

And this illogical conclusion was reached how?

Desires can be very destructive, and they can be constructive, being as destruction and construction are all a part of Discord.

Is that like the Concord airliner?

The Honest Book of Truth is the most plausible Agnostic Truth. I haven't even read it, but Discord seems to be the universal drive. In any case, lying to yourself serves no one. Your bliss is but superficial because you know you are Agnostic, you were born Agnostic, animals are Agnostic, Truth is Agnostic.

The truth of agnosticism is that it without knowledge of God. Look it up.

It would be Anti-Agnostic for me to believe I would fall up to the sky. I simply do not know that. Yes, I could be in outer space. Perhaps I am dreaming. But I have found that rarely do I question my dreams while I dream, and in essence there is no reason to.
~ We are all agnostic!

Correction, you are agnostic. Here on earth most of us believe in God.

Yes doubt is not pleasant at times, but certainty is a lie. And what is less pleasant than a lie? The more we doubt the more we expose lies and shed superficial bliss for true bliss, which comes from Truth.

The fundamental Truth is that We are Holy One, i.e., God and Humanity and Creation are all in this together.

 

[McBell]

Response: Still trolling? The fact that you're still doing so is my proof.

Still lieing I see.

The fact that you cannot stop telling this lie is my proof

 

[Fatihah]

It is frustrating trying to debate Islamic doctrines with Muslims. They do seem unable to grasp the concept of logic in such debates and rely like Fatihah, on repetition of Islamic dogma, e.g. "the Quran is miraculous and without errors thus proving it is from Allah", as if this repetition somehow "proved" their argument. Maybe it's the way Muslims are schooled, maybe they don't have debating societies at school, but whatever the reason after debating with Muslims on Internet talkboards for years now I come away with the conclusion Islamic doctrines cannot stand the heat of open inquiry from non-Muslims. Many Islamic doctrines just don't hold up under moral scrutiny and are held by blind faith and/or cultural inheritance alone, e.g. the concepts that Islam is a religion of peace, no compulsion in religion, which is proven wrong in some Muslim majority nation every day of the week. Having no real defense against these realities Muslims retreat into Islamic slogans and/or accusations everyone else is not addressing these Islamic slogans or accepting them as proof of the Quran's superiority over any other religious text. And of course we don't accept slogans as proof of anything, not without supporting evidence of historic and current Muslims actions following their Quranic beliefs.

Response: To the contrary, your frustration obviously comes from your desire to be right, despite the fact that you are obviously wrong. You see, you were presented clear proofs that the qur'an is from Allah in post 65 of page 7. For anyone can read the post and see the proof. You've made several attempts to disprove the challenge and failed in doing so. But because of your own ego and desire to be right, you refuse to acknowledge so. Thus your frustration into trying to convince someone into following your own dogma persues. The unfortunate thing here is that it is not even necessary. Acknowledging that you are wrong does not make you a bad person. And when it comes to acknowledging you are wrong in the case of Allah(God), it actually makes you a great person.

 

[Fatihah]

Still lieing I see.

The fact that you cannot stop telling this lie is my proof

Response: Likewise.

 

[England my lionheart]

Mod post
People please address the OP and refrain from personal remarks,lets not spoil the debate.

Thanks
EML

 

[tumbleweed41]

The Quran, revealed to Muhammad by the angel Gabriel around 622 CE.

The Torah, revealed to Moses and other prophets and writers through direct communication with, or inspiration from, God.

The Bible (New Testament), revealed to the Gospel writers and through letters inspired by, or through communication with God.

Seven Valleys, the Four Valleys, Hidden Words and the Book of Certitude, revealed to Mirza Husayn-'Ali-i-Nuri (Baha'u'llah) through Godly inspiration.

The Book of Mormon, revealed to Joseph Smith by the Angel Moroni.

The Vedas, original authors unknown. Inspired by God.

Not to mention the many other supernaturally inspired revelations that have kick started the various world religions and faith practices.

A common theme among the revelations is God revealing him/her/itself to man. An explanation of life and the rules for living as set forth by God.
Amazingly, God allows interpretations by man to result in many sects deriving from one revelation. And contradictions between the supposed revelations themselves. Not to mention the many Godly inspired "truths' found everyday by religious leaders.
Of the many revelations, which one is a true revelation from God? Why would that one true revelation not be made to many? Or all?
What are the criteria for establishing that a revelation is truly from God?

Since physical evidence cannot be proven for supernatural intervention, what other criteria would help one to discover the "true revelation"?

 

[Fatihah]

Since physical evidence cannot be proven for supernatural intervention, what other criteria would help one to discover the "true revelation"?

Response: Physical evidence can in fact prove supernatural intervention if the physical evidence performs a miracle. The qur'an had done just that as explained in post 65 of page 7 of thread. What was accomplished with the qur'an can not be accomplished by anyone else. If one were to create a religious scripture, that' s possible. If one were to use their made up scripture to inspire followers to follow them, that's possible. But if that person used their made up scripture to inspire their followers to conquer a nation, that's impossible.

And that is the miracle of the qur'an and Muhammad. For Muhammad did use a a religious scripture to inspire followers to conquer a nation. And since it is impossible for a man-made religious scripture(or woman-made for that matter) to do such a thing, that means that the scripture Muhammad used was neither his creation, or any person for that matter. Which leads to the question, "since the scripture in which Muhammad used was neither created by him or any other person, who is the creator?" That is when you come to realize that the creator of the scripture (the qur'an) is none other than Allah (swt). Thus proving that the qur'an is the true revelation from Allah (swt).

 

[England my lionheart]

Response: Physical evidence can in fact prove supernatural intervention if the physical evidence performs a miracle. The qur'an had done just that as explained in post 65 of page 7 of thread. What was accomplished with the qur'an can not be accomplished by anyone else. If one were to create a religion, that' s possible. If one were to use their made up religion to inspire followers to follow them, that's possible. But if that person used their made up religion to inspire their followers to conquer a nation, that's impossible.

And that is the miracle of the qur'an and Muhammad. For Muhammad did use a a religion to inspire followers to conquer a nation. And since it is impossible for a man-made religion (or woman-made for that matter) to do such a thing, that means that the religion Muhammad used was neither his creation, or any person for that matter. Which leads to the question, "since the religion in which Muhammad used was neither created by him or any other person, who is the creator?" That is when you come to realize that the creator of the religion (islam) was from none other than Allah (swt).

Or was it the Men who wrote the Taurat and the books of the Bible .
The problem with revelation to a single person is it is unreasonable,revelation to many would be the most logical way to go so that there can be no mistake in the message of said revelation,Men are all capable of lies and self delusion as can be seen throughout history.
The real truth is no religious belief can be substantiated by anything Human or what Humans have written but can only be something you have faith in,there is nothing wrong in faith but should'nt be confused with facts.
As for miracles,has anyone alive now ever witnessed one? i suppose it depends what you percieve to be a miracle,for example a Muslim would consider the Qur'an challenge to be a miracle but for non believers it may be considered to be a challenge to some poorly educated Arab tribes.

 

[England my lionheart]

To address the OP my criteria would be a fully audible and visual demonstration to the masses of a feat that would be impossible for Humans.

 

[Fatihah]

Or was it the Men who wrote the Taurat and the books of the Bible .
The problem with revelation to a single person is it is unreasonable,revelation to many would be the most logical way to go so that there can be no mistake in the message of said revelation,Men are all capable of lies and self delusion as can be seen throughout history.
The real truth is no religious belief can be substantiated by anything Human or what Humans have written but can only be something you have faith in,there is nothing wrong in faith but should'nt be confused with facts.
As for miracles,has anyone alive now ever witnessed one? i suppose it depends what you percieve to be a miracle,for example a Muslim would consider the Qur'an challenge to be a miracle but for non believers it may be considered to be a challenge to some poorly educated Arab tribes.

Response: The beauty of the challenge is that it works both ways. Not only is it impossible to create a religion that answers the qur'an challenge, but it is also impossible to copy a religious scripture and answer the challenge, which would prove that the qur'an is not a copy of other religious scripture.

As for miracles, a miracle is a miracle. There is no such thing as something being a miracle to some but not others, because that defeats the definition of what a miracle is. A miracle is an impossibility by all humans. The challenge of the qur'an shows just that. Those who reject so simply do so because of their own denial.

 

[England my lionheart]

The Qur'an challenge which i am sure you know was first spoken by a Man,now if your God was the author of the challenge it would make sense if he presented the challenge himself,however no such thing occured so it was purely a Human act and there is no empirical evidence that it was otherwise therefore your criteria your criteria is different to mine as i do not view it as a miracle,just words written and spoken by Men.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Response: Physical evidence can in fact prove supernatural intervention if the physical evidence performs a miracle. The qur'an had done just that as explained in post 65 of page 7 of thread.

Response: Refuted and dismissed.
That horse is dead.

 

[Fatihah]

The Qur'an challenge which i am sure you know was first spoken by a Man,now if your God was the author of the challenge it would make sense if he presented the challenge himself,however no such thing occured so it was purely a Human act and there is no empirical evidence that it was otherwise therefore your criteria your criteria is different to mine as i do not view it as a miracle,just words written and spoken by Men.

Response: Whether or not it was Allah or man who offered the challenge is irrelevant, because that is not the miracle. Thus your reasoning in no such way disproves the challenge. That being the case, your reasoning for not accepting it as a miracle is not logical at all.

 

[Fatihah]

Response: Refuted and dismissed.
That horse is dead.

Response: There's the statement. Where's the proof?

 

[England my lionheart]

Response: Whether or not it was Allah or man who offered the challenge is irrelevant, because that is not the miracle. Thus your reasoning in no such way disproves the challenge. That being the case, your reasoning for not accepting it as a miracle is not logical at all.

Of course its relevant whether it was Man or Allah because if it was Man it cannot be a miracle,obviously you cannot prove it was Allah therefore it cannot be a miracle.

 

[Fatihah]

Of course its relevant whether it was Man or Allah because if it was Man it cannot be a miracle,obviously you cannot prove it was Allah therefore it cannot be a miracle.

Response: Why does it matter who issues the challenge?

 

[England my lionheart]

Because any Human can issue a challenge so its nothing out of the ordinary,any Human can say he/she has had a revelation from a God or Gods all the way from the earliest Prophets to David Icke,they all believe they recieved their revelation from God.
Thats why religion cannot meet the criteria of those that don't believe because they are Man made,simple as that,it should be enough being a faith.