the right religion

[Guy Threepwood]

I believe Stalin's theology was that science is god.

I think you are correct, & his 'scientific' farming techniques starved millions to death.
the word 'science' often translates to blind faith, faith which does not recognize itself

 

[metis]

...the word 'science' often translates to blind faith, faith which does not recognize itself

If one who's supposedly in science operates out of blind faith on much of anything, then they are not operating out of a scientific paradigm. It's the reason why scientists in general don't tend to make for good theists, and even those that are theistically are often inclined to be rather unorthodox in their theological drift.

 

[Muffled]

I think you are correct, & his 'scientific' farming techniques starved millions to death.
the word 'science' often translates to blind faith, faith which does not recognize itself

I once talked to an Iranian whose government was trying to develop its economy. I told him that there ws a problem in trying to do that in that one misses the normal processes of economic growth and that can cause problems. For instance it might make a lot of sense to produce lots of tractors for farms but if the economy isn't ready to handle a mass of unemployed and untrained farm workers the economy goes to hell in a bucket.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

I once talked to an Iranian whose government was trying to develop its economy. I told him that there ws a problem in trying to do that in that one misses the normal processes of economic growth and that can cause problems. For instance it might make a lot of sense to produce lots of tractors for farms but if the economy isn't ready to handle a mass of unemployed and untrained farm workers the economy goes to hell in a bucket.

Yes, even when the intentions are good, I'd agree that free markets generally make for the best economies. I think there are some good arguments for socialism, and I was brought up hearing them from good intelligent people. but they are academic arguments, travelling and seeing how average people actually live has been far more compelling to me..

 

[metis]

Ever been in a true poverty area in a third-world country?

 

[Muffled]

Yes, even when the intentions are good, I'd agree that free markets generally make for the best economies. I think there are some good arguments for socialism, and I was brought up hearing them from good intelligent people. but they are academic arguments, travelling and seeing how average people actually live has been far more compelling to me..

Even communism in its purest sense ie consent of the governed works for a time as it did for the Pigrims but once they became established it was better to return to a market economy.

 

[Nietzsche]

Yes, even when the intentions are good, I'd agree that free markets generally make for the best economies. I think there are some good arguments for socialism, and I was brought up hearing them from good intelligent people. but they are academic arguments, travelling and seeing how average people actually live has been far more compelling to me..

I would argue that a free-market is good, but with certain limits and regulations and overseeing. There is such a thing as a market becoming so free that a company might become the only game in town. We saw that happen in many mining towns in the US.

 

[metis]

As far as I know, every country in the world uses a mixture of capitalism and socialism, which is called "mixed economy" in economic circles.

 

[Nietzsche]

As far as I know, every country in the world uses a mixture of capitalism and socialism, which is called "mixed economy" in economic circles.

Oh, I agree. I just thought I'd put out there that there is equal danger going the opposite direction. Capitalism is good at making prosperity, Socialism is good at spreading some of it around so everyone gets to benefit a little.

 

[Salek Atesh]

I think you are correct, & his 'scientific' farming techniques starved millions to death.
the word 'science' often translates to blind faith, faith which does not recognize itself

Nah, Stalin's theology was that he was god. The Soviets clamped down on religion not because of any devotion to science, but rather they didn't want competing loyalties. They wanted everyone completely loyal to the USSR and no one else.

 

[Nietzsche]

Nah, Stalin's theology was that he was god. The Soviets clamped down on religion not because of any devotion to science, but rather they didn't want competing loyalties. They wanted everyone completely loyal to the USSR and no one else.

It should be mentioned that the Orthodox Clergy Sainted Stalin.

 

[metis]

Oh, I agree. I just thought I'd put out there that there is equal danger going the opposite direction. Capitalism is good at making prosperity, Socialism is good at spreading some of it around so everyone gets to benefit a little.

Yes, and there is also variable dynamics based on resource levels per capita. The lower the resource level, the more socialistic programs are likely to eventually be incorporated into the economy. Countries that fail to make the change as resources are gradually being depleted and/or their population is outpacing available resources are setting themselves up for much trouble.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

I would argue that a free-market is good, but with certain limits and regulations and overseeing. There is such a thing as a market becoming so free that a company might become the only game in town. We saw that happen in many mining towns in the US.

I'd take that over the government being the only game in town any day

 

[Nietzsche]

Yes, and there is also variable dynamics based on resource levels per capita. The lower the resource level, the more socialistic programs are likely to eventually be incorporated into the economy. Countries that fail to make the change as resources are gradually being depleted and/or their population is outpacing available resources are setting themselves up for much trouble.

Quite. Agrarians don't seem to understand that moving from a producing economy to a services/information economy is the natural progression of things. You can't maintain growth past a certain point in a production-economy.

Case in point would be the Soviet Union.

I'd take that over the government being the only game in town any day

We do not need to have either extreme. I would rather pit both hellhounds against the other than give either one the time to go after us.

Also. This song? Not an exaggeration.

That was a fact of life in portions of the United States and Britain during the Industrial Revolution.

 

[Salek Atesh]

It should be mentioned that the Orthodox Clergy Sainted Stalin.

Well of course!! He was only a violent, psychotic anti-theist who shot or imprisoned nearly every single Eastern Orthodox cleric. Why not make him a Saint??

Russia is weird.

 

[Nietzsche]

Well of course!! He was only a violent, psychotic anti-theist who shot or imprisoned nearly every single Eastern Orthodox cleric. Why not make him a Saint??

Russia is weird.

It really, really is. I mean, they "elected" a Bond villain. How many states do that?

 

[Guy Threepwood]

It really, really is. I mean, they "elected" a Bond villain. How many states do that?

The original question was about worshipping science, rather than God, and I think the USSR demonstrates the danger in that.

Before communism, Russia was the breadbasket of Europe, Stalin replaced the farmer's traditional practices with more 'scientific' ones, and millions starved to death..

 

[Nietzsche]

The original question was about worshipping science, rather than God, and I think the USSR demonstrates the danger in that.

The USSR worshiped wrong science. I don't mean that in a snarky way, I mean that in a literal way. Their view of genetics and such was ***-backwards and that certainly didn't help the situation.

 

[Salek Atesh]

The original question was about worshipping science, rather than God, and I think the USSR demonstrates the danger in that.

Before communism, Russia was the breadbasket of Europe, Stalin replaced the farmer's traditional practices with more 'scientific' ones, and millions starved to death..

Again, it wasn't science, so much as self-serving interest. Stalin wouldn't have emphasized science over religion if it didn't help him quell competing loyalties.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

The USSR worshiped wrong science. I don't mean that in a snarky way, I mean that in a literal way. Their view of genetics and such was ***-backwards and that certainly didn't help the situation.

Well that's the problem with science, it's a label politicians can stick on any idea they like, especially when they employ the scientists.