The Sacrifice of Jesus from a Non-Religious Perspective.

[outhouse]

Josephus is more than enough to show that he existed,

yes I agree, and while he may have existed and I really do think there was a man, Josephas knew nothing about the way he preached. Nor did the gospel writers. Mark and Thomas and Q are about as good as it gets and even then its hard to pull any exact details.


The bible is chocked full of jesus and money and how he hated taxes and looked down upon tax collectors, and he has a a history of not paying taxes and in fact during the time near the temple taxes were writin in at every step leading up to his death. It even states in scripture he was put on the cross for being a tax cheat

 

[fallingblood]

yes I agree, and while he may have existed and I really do think there was a man, Josephas knew nothing about the way he preached. Nor did the gospel writers. Mark and Thomas and Q are about as good as it gets and even then its hard to pull any exact details.


The bible is chocked full of jesus and money and how he hated taxes and looked down upon tax collectors, and he has a a history of not paying taxes and in fact during the time near the temple taxes were writin in at every step leading up to his death. It even states in scripture he was put on the cross for being a tax cheat

Show me in scripture where it says he was put on the cross for being a tax cheat. So me where it says he avoided paying taxes and that he looked down on tax collectors. Quote some verses.

 

[outhouse]

Show me in scripture where it says he was put on the cross for being a tax cheat. So me where it says he avoided paying taxes and that he looked down on tax collectors. Quote some verses.

"We have found this man subverting our nation. He opposes payment of taxes to Caesar and claims to be Christ/Messiah, a king." (Luke 23:1-4

heres one

im trying to fid the site i was at this morning that had ever single tax verse written in the NT on it. It was amazing the amount of biblical reffernces were there about jesus teaching to tax collectors because they were the sick ones

 

[outhouse]

And as He sat at table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and sat down with Jesus and His disciples. And when the Pharisees saw this, they said to His disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?” But when He heard it, He said, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners”(Mt 9:9-13).

this one just shows jesus calling the tax collectors sinners and sick

 

[outhouse]

heres another, that states you should treat them like a pagan or tax collector


"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault ... if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector." - Matthew 18:15

 

[fallingblood]

"We have found this man subverting our nation. He opposes payment of taxes to Caesar and claims to be Christ/Messiah, a king." (Luke 23:1-4

heres one

im trying to fid the site i was at this morning that had ever single tax verse written in the NT on it. It was amazing the amount of biblical reffernces were there about jesus teaching to tax collectors because they were the sick ones

That doesn't say he didnt pay taxes or was crucified for such. There wasn't a death penalty for not paying taxes, and really, all we see here is a trumped up charge. Really it is illogical as Jesus would have paid taxes to Herod anyway, not Caesar.

 

[outhouse]

More talk of tax collectors as sinners thieves and such

"The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: "God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector."
- Luke 18:11

 

[fallingblood]

And as He sat at table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and sat down with Jesus and His disciples. And when the Pharisees saw this, they said to His disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?” But when He heard it, He said, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners”(Mt 9:9-13).

this one just shows jesus calling the tax collectors sinners and sick

It calls them sinners. If you knew your Jewish theology though, all we're sinners. So it really isn't an insult. Not to mention Jesus was eating a meal with them and thus created a communal solidarity with them.

 

[fallingblood]

heres another, that states you should treat them like a pagan or tax collector


"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault ... if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector." - Matthew 18:15

So sit down and eat with them? As that is what Jesus did with tax collectors.

 

[fallingblood]

More talk of tax collectors as sinners thieves and such

"The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: "God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector."
- Luke 18:11

He's talking about just one tax collector not tax collectors in general. More so, you took the quote out of con text.Also Jesus never said that, a Pharisee did. Read what the verse says. Don't just blindly copy and paste.

 

[outhouse]

That doesn't say he didnt pay taxes or was crucified for such. There wasn't a death penalty for not paying taxes, and really, all we see here is a trumped up charge. Really it is illogical as Jesus would have paid taxes to Herod anyway, not Caesar.

remember as well all this talk of tax collectors is more relevant and written for people after the fall of the temple. We need to take into context how this was all layered in when it was written and for who.


jesus went out of his way to make tax collectors his friends, if the temple priest witnessed him with good ol Zacc and Matthew and as the bible claims, tax collectors stopped and came out to watch him preach. this would have drew attention

Fact is jesus is said to have been questioned about tax right before he tips over money tables and is put to death.

You have to admit their is plenty of tax talk in the bible and jesus is a traveling teacher with no money. he even tells his disciples does he not? to even leave their begger bowls. He like other traveling teachers relies on food from his teaching

 

[outhouse]

It calls them sinners. If you knew your Jewish theology though, all we're sinners. So it really isn't an insult. Not to mention Jesus was eating a meal with them and thus created a communal solidarity with them.

but you ignore that jesus calls them sick

 

[outhouse]

That doesn't say he didnt pay taxes or was crucified for such. There wasn't a death penalty for not paying taxes, and really, all we see here is a trumped up charge. Really it is illogical as Jesus would have paid taxes to Herod anyway, not Caesar.

there was tax everywhere, at home and at the temple. There was temple tax, poll tax, property tax, road taxes, taxes on goods carried and many more.

"We have found this man subverting our nation. He opposes payment of taxes to Caesar and claims to be Christ/Messiah, a king." (Luke 23:1-4

trumped up LOL pullease

Subverting could be him trying to convert tax collectors into being honest and not extorting so much for Caesar, just like ole Zacc and Matthew. There is a valid charge there.

He never did come up with money when asked "why doesnt your master pay his taxes" instead peter is sent to fish? thats not paying. So their not clear if he paid or not, so the charges are correct.

and as far as king, messiah/christ, jesus was trying to use him being a king from a kingdom not of this world, but a king none the less. thus, the charges stand biblically

 

[outhouse]

here is direct reffernce to a tax crime

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites ... in the synagogues ... But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray ... Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." - Matthew 6:5

This one is not hard to figure out

stop going to the temple and the treasury would have dried up and taxes wouldnt be paid.

right there is perfect reason for this scripture "We have found this man subverting our nation. He opposes payment of taxes to Caesar and claims to be Christ/Messiah, a king." (Luke 23:1-4

 

[outhouse]

heres two good one's

"I tell you with certainty, tax collectors and prostitutes will get into God's kingdom ahead of you!" - Matthew 21:31​

"When the high priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they knew that he was talking about them. Although they wanted to arrest him, they were afraid of the crowds" - Matthew 21:45

here he is telling the high priest they are lower then the tax collectors or prostitutes, that will get you noticed.


But what I find interesting goes back to how jesus could escape his violent act's in the temple. "they were afraid of the crowds"
​

 

[outhouse]

heres a good article on why it was taxes that got him killed

Who Would Jesus Tax? - Data Mining the Bible - Jesus the Christ - Bible Verses - Bible Study - What would Jesus do? - WhatisTaxed.com

So Why kill Jesus? Was it taxes?

1. Jesus was officially charged with the crime of "forbidding paying taxes." Luke 23:2. And, this may have also been applicable to temple taxes, since Jesus also taught against the chuch leaders, calling them hypocrites (Matthew 15:7, 23:13, 23:15, 23:23, 23:25, Luke 11:44, 13:15), and also calling those who go to church hypocrites (Matthew 6:5), and said God rewards those who pray at home.
2. 
   Jesus was teaching his disciples, specifically Simon, that taxes imposed by kings belong upon "foreigners". And, "the subjects [children, sons] are exempt." Matthew 17:25-27
3. Jesus was teaching tax collectors who "were everywhere in the habit of coming close ... to listen to Him." Luke 15:1
4. Jesus was friends with tax collectors Matthew 11:19, and sought them out because he thought they were "sick" Luke 5:30-31 and wanted to correct their condition.
5. Jesus was disrupting tax collections by taking tax collectors away from their jobs. Luke 19:8 , Matthew 9:9
6. Jesus was publicly tested over the subject of "taxes", by "hypocrites" who possessed and used the Caesar-is-god coin. Matthew 22:15-21
7. Jesus disrupted the moneychangers' operations in the temple, thus disrupting the banking industry. He even called them thieves. Mark 11:15, John 2:15, Matthew 21:12 .... Notice, less banking = less money = less taxes.
8. Jesus taught, rich men don't get into heaven (since a camel will never fit through a needle's eye), and taught against the accumulation of money, and against the Caesar-god money system... "With men this is not possible." Matthew 19:23-26, This would also mean less taxes, and would have resulted in a reduction or even the destruction of the moneychangers' (i.e. banker's) tax-money-slave system.
9. Jesus insulted the chief priests and elders (i.e. local authorities, local government, the crime partners of moneychangers) by telling them "tax collectors and prostitutes will get into God's kingdom ahead of you!" - Matthew 21:31 And, Jesus taught the people that priests weren't necessary; that hypocrites go to church; and that praying should be done at home, instead of church. This would have also insulted the other tax collectors, those who were perfectly happy with taking other people's money (stealing, against 8th commandment).

 

[fallingblood]

Before we continue, just let me get something straight. So now the trial of Jesus has historicity? We can be certain that a trial happened as well as what was said in that trial?

Also, we can be fairly certain what Jesus taught now? I just want to get that squared away before I respond.

 

[outhouse]

So now the trial of Jesus has historicity?

Not at all

We can be certain that a trial happened as well as what was said in that trial?

Nope, not at all

we can be fairly certain what Jesus taught now?

we do have a general idea, but it is debated on just what a kingdom of god ment

 

[fallingblood]

Not at all



Nope, not at all




we do have a general idea, but it is debated on just what a kingdom of god ment

So why are you saying we can know what he taught about taxes or what his trial was like (as in what charges were brought forth)? You seem to be talking out of both sides of your mouth.

 

[outhouse]

So why are you saying we can know what he taught about taxes or what his trial was like (as in what charges were brought forth)? You seem to be talking out of both sides of your mouth.

LOL

the same way you claim preaching caused his death and there was a sacrifice

You seem to be talking out of both sides of your mouth.


Dont attack the scholarly method's. I have no problem that Luke probably copied Mark and Q and only built on that. SO his verses have little historicity at all.

But underlying it all, Romans were vicious at extorting taxes, jesus was poor and didnt like paying them and most scholars agree that the incident in the temple is what got him killed by romans.

Face it, you have failed at proving a sacrifice or even making a good plausible explanation as to how he sacrificed himself. at best i only claim we dont know if there was a sacrifice but I do doubt it. the storys are pretty clear. He was asked about taxes, he tipped money tables over where they could tax the exchange rate and he was shortly there after put to death rather quickly.


No where in scripture does it state he was just preaching and arrested ONLY for being a leader of a movement that threatened Romans by words alone, as it was common for Romans to kill leaders of movements. Instead we have a violent act in a temple that would have had a no fly zone with high tension and shortly before that we have him being questioned about taxs and jesus himself surrounded by tax payers including verses that he had ALL the tax collectors listening to him as he could have been teaching them to quit robbing the people.