The Shabbat Thread

[IndigoChild5559]

I understand the need for clear direction but when does it go beyond all common sense? Don't you think that if God had wanted 39 categories he would have made 39 categories with details included in all of them....? If it meant death to violate the Sabbath, then the details would have been important. So what constitutes work?...and what doesn't? Did God give enough details about it, counting on common sense, or didn't he?

What was required?

"Let's start with some basic activities from which we refrain on Shabbat:

• writing, erasing, and tearing;
• business transactions;
• driving or riding in cars or other vehicles;
• shopping;
• using the telephone;
• turning on or off anything which uses electricity, including lights, radios, television, computer, air-conditioners and alarm clocks;
• cooking, baking or kindling a fire;
• gardening and grass-mowing;
• doing laundry;"

The Shabbat Laws

OK, so I see that there are clear directives for the Jewish observance, but a few have been added to accommodate modern day versions of the original restrictions. (in red) Are these interpretations really what the original law was given for?

Jesus said that "The Sabbath came into existence for the sake of man, and not man for the sake of the Sabbath."

When I read about the restrictions that the site above has listed, some questions and answers following the article, really made me shake my head.

Like this one.....

"What if someone has a tissue in their pocket but don't realize it until they reach their hand in, once they realize it they take it out and drop it on the ground -- should they have just left it, or taken it out and dropped it having it become litter? Can they then pick it up or is that prohibited?

Reply
Rabbi EK for Chabad.org June 5, 2019
in response to Anonymous:
If there is a child he may give it to a child who is a minor. If this is not the case he should walk with intervals of less than 6 feet at a time, stop and then start again until he gets home then he can put it down."

Does God care if you have a tissue in your pocket and you drop it? Does God want you to 'walk with intervals of less than 6 feet at a time, stop and then start again' all the way home? You can move something with your teeth or your elbow because you can't move it with your hands?

Another requirement was to twist the bulb in your refrigerator so that if you opened the door the light would not go on. When does it get too silly?

Another poster said that a Jew can go to war and kill his brother of another nation....yet he can't push a button in an elevator or turn on a light switch to prevent him killing or injuring himself by falling down a flight of stairs in the dark on the Sabbath?

Help me understand how it got this ridiculous....

The Torah does not describe what is and isn't work. Deuteronomy 17:8-13 gives God-given authority to the elders/judges who are later the pharisees and rabbis to interpret the law. It is from these that we get the 39 categories of forbidden labors.

What are the 39 categories? When the tabernacle was being built, work on it stopped on the Shabbat. The 39 categories are everything that was used for the tabernacle, from start to finish. For example, writing is forbidden because writing was used in the building of the tabernacle and ceased on the Shabbat.

You may think the solutions given by our Rabbis to dilemmas on the Shabbat are ridiculous. But what is your solution? To say that the Shabbat matters so little that we should go ahead and violate it? Because that's what it sounds like you are saying.

And what my reply is, is that the Shabbat isn't just some nice vacation we take. It is a great joy, but it is also a commandment.

BTW, as for not flipping electrical switches, this is a modern interpretation held only by the Orthodox that electricity is a form of fire, and flipping a switch would be the equivalent of kindling a flame. Other denominations do not consider electricity to be fire.

 

[rosends]

I did but the mods deleted it before I could examine the scriptures you presented there. If you would like to repost what you quoted, I would like to do some research on them. TIA.

There are many places online which provide at least some of the required (and, as of yet unfulfilled) prophecies -- and Judaism doesn't subscribe to a "second coming" theory to explain this away.

Judaism 101: Mashiach: The Messiah
All About the Messiah
The actual prophecies about the Jewish Moshiach

 

[cataway]

I herd something called a sabbath journey, about 3000 feet ?
thinking that to be a walking person. how is that held to today?

 

[Deeje]

To you it's ridiculous. To us it's not. Do you need a list of what "ridiculous" things Jews find in Christianity?

Actually I would. I would like to understand the Jewish mindset as there are no Jews where I live so I don’t get to talk to any.

A list of what you find ridiculous about Christianity would tell me a great deal. I am looking for answers, not just criticising for the sake of it. I genuinely want to understand how intelligent people can take God’s commands to such extreme degrees without that inner voice questioning whether that seems right.

I can take what I dish out....frank discussion doesn’t mean tip toeing around people in case you hurt their feelings. I’m not of the PC generation. I like a ‘tell it like it is’ discussion without emotions clouding the issues. If you believe something sincerely, you should be able to defend it without taking offence because people don’t understand.

 

[Deeje]

The Torah does not describe what is and isn't work. Deuteronomy 17:8-13 gives God-given authority to the elders/judges who are later the pharisees and rabbis to interpret the law. It is from these that we get the 39 categories of forbidden labors.

What are the 39 categories? When the tabernacle was being built, work on it stopped on the Shabbat. The 39 categories are everything that was used for the tabernacle, from start to finish. For example, writing is forbidden because writing was used in the building of the tabernacle and ceased on the Shabbat.

You may think the solutions given by our Rabbis to dilemmas on the Shabbat are ridiculous. But what is your solution? To say that the Shabbat matters so little that we should go ahead and violate it? Because that's what it sounds like you are saying.

And what my reply is, is that the Shabbat isn't just some nice vacation we take. It is a great joy, but it is also a commandment.

BTW, as for not flipping electrical switches, this is a modern interpretation held only by the Orthodox that electricity is a form of fire, and flipping a switch would be the equivalent of kindling a flame. Other denominations do not consider electricity to be fire.

Thank you. What I am doing here is trying to understand why Jews take their practices to such extremes without seeing them as extreme at all.

I didn’t know that not all have a problem with electricity. What about elevators? And having a tissue in your pocket, especially if you have a runny nose? (Hay fever for example)

 

[Deeje]

There are many places online which provide at least some of the required (and, as of yet unfulfilled) prophecies -- and Judaism doesn't subscribe to a "second coming" theory to explain this away.

Judaism 101: Mashiach: The Messiah
All About the Messiah
The actual prophecies about the Jewish Moshiach

Thank you, I will take some time to look these up.

 

[Harel13]

I herd something called a sabbath journey, about 3000 feet ?
thinking that to be a walking person. how is that held to today?

It's called a Sabbath-day's journey, apparently, and what it means is how far outside of a halachically (Jewish law standards) bordered town or city a person can walk, which is 2000 cubits in any direction.

 

[Harel13]

Actually I would. I would like to understand the Jewish mindset as there are no Jews where I live so I don’t get to talk to any.

As with every other side-topic, you may, yes, you guessed correctly, start a different thread on that.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Thank you. What I am doing here is trying to understand why Jews take their practices to such extremes without seeing them as extreme at all.

I didn’t know that not all have a problem with electricity. What about elevators? And having a tissue in your pocket, especially if you have a runny nose? (Hay fever for example)

I'm coming from the point of view of one who is almost Orthodox in my observance, so of course that is what I defend. As I have explained, these things are habitual and don't feel at all like they are nit-picky or over the top -- we are just comfortable with them. They tell us what to do in every situation in order to keep the law.

However, not every Jewish tradition approaches things in this manner. Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform each have a different philosophical approach to Jewish law. This results in what appears to be a tiered observance with Orthodox being the strictest, Reform being the lightest, and Conservative being the moderate of the bunch.

For example, according to my Reform Rabbi, if you were a Reform Jew, the emphasis would be on what works for you personally for Shabbat -- there really isn't a list of what Reform Jews are required to do, although they may take from Jewish tradition.

I don't personally know the answer to your handkerchief question. I've never been in that position. If I'm sick I stay home, not only for my personal comfort, but also because I don't like infecting others. I never thought about the allergy situation.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Actually I would. I would like to understand the Jewish mindset as there are no Jews where I live so I don’t get to talk to any.

A list of what you find ridiculous about Christianity would tell me a great deal. I am looking for answers, not just criticising for the sake of it. I genuinely want to understand how intelligent people can take God’s commands to such extreme degrees without that inner voice questioning whether that seems right.

I can take what I dish out....frank discussion doesn’t mean tip toeing around people in case you hurt their feelings. I’m not of the PC generation. I like a ‘tell it like it is’ discussion without emotions clouding the issues. If you believe something sincerely, you should be able to defend it without taking offence because people don’t understand.

It's kind of off topic for this thread. Might I suggest you start another thread titled "What do Jews find strange about Christianity and why." You'll get a long list. And actually, without being pompous, it really would be eye opening for you, and I find those sorts of exchanges to be very helpful.

 

[Deeje]

It's kind of off topic for this thread. Might I suggest you start another thread titled "What do Jews find strange about Christianity and why." You'll get a long list. And actually, without being pompous, it really would be eye opening for you, and I find those sorts of exchanges to be very helpful.

Thank you....I will put it in a more appropriate thread this time.
I am adding to my education.....I don’t want defensive responses....I just want to understand.