• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The Shabbat Thread

Tumah

Veteran Member
It seems to me as if being "more mindful of the prohibitions" was all that God required. What constitutes "work" was clearly laid out in the 39 requirements.....why did it need explanation to the point of adding 39 'categories' which then became more laws?
I think you may be confused or not familiar with what you're talking about. There are no clearly laid out requirements. The Rabbis derive these 39 forms of creative acts from the activities that went into building the Tabernacle. The additions are Rabbinic enactments against performing activities that might lead to accidentally transgressing those Laws.

There is no scriptural evidence of an oral tradition from Moses.
Can you show me where the laws of slaughter are located in the Torah?

I believe it was as Jesus (a devout Jew) said....The Sabbath came into existence for the sake of man, and not man for the sake of the Sabbath."

[You see the 'spirit of the law' is expressed here? But it appears that the Jewish people are enslaved to the letter of the Law, rather than the spirit of the Law being for the benefit of the people.
I don't believe it was him, but the authors of the NT. And I'm not sure there's any reason to consider him a devout Jew either.

And no, I don't see the 'spirit of the law' expressed here. I see someone making up an excuse to not be bound by the law. There is no verse that says the Sabbath was made for man. There are verses that say that it was made as a covenant between G-d and Israel. There evidence is against your author's position.

As I said....Reading through the restrictions, don't we get a sense of how legally minded the Pharisees were in dictating what is, or isn't part of Sabbath Law?

.. Its an interesting read and helps us understand why the Jews stumbled over Jesus, who did not support the rabbinical definitions of "work", whilst he respected the spirit of the law....something he said that the 'legalistic' Pharisees had lost.

To lose the spirit of the Law is to make the Law a burden to carry, sticking to a rigid interpretation of it, rather than it being something that is refreshing and protective.

Jesus said to his Jewish audience...."Come to me, all you who are toiling and loaded down, and I will refresh you. Take my yoke upon you and become my disciples.” (Matthew 11:28-29)

He understood how loaded down the people were with all this micro-management of the Law. He said to take his yoke, serving God with him....meaning that he would work with these ones and lighten that burden, resulting in refreshment rather than carrying the burdens by themselves, which many had given up trying to do.

He showed them how to observe the Law without making it into an impossible and enslaving burden.
The thing is - and I don't think you've realized this yet - the fact that the NT was ultimately unsuccessful at getting Jewish followers - from the masses of Jews who according to Josephus mainly saw themselves as allied with the Pharisees, no less - proves that the Law was not seen as a burden by the Jewish people. In fact, we see the preponderance of Laws as a merit to ourselves. That is something the Christian mind cannot comprehend. For the Christian, G-d's Laws aren't beautiful, they're a heavy yoke. The Christian mind can't fathom Psa. 119, it goes expressly against the teachings of Matthew you've quoted here.


But an elevator operates on electricity.....and opinions are not laws...are they? Completing an electrical circuit is not lighting a fire unless a vivid imagination (or dare I say an OCD approach) in these things, makes their adherence into something incomprehensible. Especially is this true when so many attempts are made to circumvent the made up parts of the Law, so that they can still break them. (Automatic light switches...elevators that stop on every floor so that Jews don't have to press buttons...) :confused:
Do you see what I am seeing?
I see that you are seeing the wrong picture because you are ignorant. Which would be ok if you didn't create such strong opinions out of that ignorance.
The problem of electricity isn't one of "sparks" except in situations where plugging something into an outlet might generate them (something that actually happens with my laptop plug). Fire is an issue for combustion engines and the old light bulb filaments that gave off light by being heated up.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
It just says it was a Sabbath....:shrug:
If you're talking about Ex. 34:21, then no it doesn't say the word Sabbath at all.

Again...what is this kind of thinking? You can't pick up the animals but you can pick up things to throw to it? Forgive me but, seriously is "we're supposed to" a Law, or an opinion about the Law?
You can't pick up things with your hands but can move them with your teeth or your elbow...? Why?
I know that you aren't really asking because you want to know, but for the sake of anyone else who happens to be reading here, I'll answer:
The issue is that there's a Rabbinic prohibition to handle things that can't or will not be used on the Sabbath. Since animals may not work on the Sabbath, it's forbidden to handle them. Pillows and blankets may be used on the Sabbath, so they are not forbidden. This prohibition was only enacted on the normal way of handling things, because it's ultimately meant to prevent someone from accidentally using that prohibited item. When handling something the normal way, a person may forget themselves and end up using the item for a prohibited activity. Handling the item in an abnormal way is a good way to prevent losing focus, so the Rabbinic prohibition was not extended to that.

So if a person inadvertently transgresses a law but has not intended to, do you see God's judgment as coming upon a person in the same way as one who did so deliberately? Isn't this why God gave the Law, so that the heart of individuals would move them to obey him out of love.....not out of fear.

Isaiah 11:3-4 says of God....
"And he shall judge the poor justly, and he shall chastise with equity the humble of the earth, and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth and with the breath of his lips he shall put the wicked to death.

God deals differently with those who transgress his laws inadvertently, compared to those who do so deliberately,
Everything you said here is correct except the part about serving G-d out of love not fear. We're meant to serve G-d out of both love and fear as Deut. 6:5 and 10:12 make clear.

But again, the problem you have is that you are a Christian who does not know what it means to love G-d's Laws, because it's been drilled into your head that G-d's Laws are a burden. For us, G-d's Laws are wonderful treasures and we want to avoid transgressing them - or causing others to - even accidentally.

but what about those who look for ways to dodge the prohibitions? Are loopholes OK with you? Are they OK with God?
That depends on the nature of the loophole. Loopholes that were intended simply to dodge a prohibition or requirement are wrong and we're punished for them. Loopholes to one requirement or prohibition that are found in order to prevent the transgression of another prohibition are sometimes necessary.

So, trying to understand......what you go on is "a Rabbinical enactment prohibiting medical treatment on the Sabbath in many cases". Is a "Rabbinical enactment" the same as a Law of God? If different "Rabbinical" opinions leave some of these questions undecided, what is a devout Jew to conclude....do you just pick the Rabbi whose opinions agree with your own?
A Rabbinic enactment isn't the same as a Biblical Law. There are a number of differences between them. For instance, with Biblical Laws, when we're in doubt we take the more stringent approach, while we take the more lenient approach when in doubt about a Rabbinic enactments. Rabbinic enactments also can't push off Biblical prohibitions or requirements (except in certain cases where the Rabbinic enactment pushes off a Biblical requirement to prevent the transgression of a Biblical prohibition).

With regard to most cases, we follow the majority opinion. If there's no definitive opinion, then it depends. If it's about a Biblical Law, we follow the stringent opinion. If it's about a Rabbinic Law we follow the lenient opinion. If neither are more strict or lenient than the other, we are free to choose which opinion we want to follow unless there's a standing custom one way or the other.

I'm not sure why you've put "Rabbinical" in quotation marks.

So there is no scriptural basis as to why many medical treatments are forbidden on the Sabbath?
It depends on the type of treatment. Surgery would probably violate one of the 39 prohibitions. Taking medication or other non-invasive treatments though, is simply about ensuring that others don't prepare the treatments in a Biblically prohibited way.

I asked..."the question is whose laws are you obeying really?" Are you saying that the Rabbis, whose opinions apparently differ, are all speaking for God when they interpret the 39 restrictions in different ways? How is that possible?
Because G-d in His Infinite Wisdom wrote the Law in such a way as to be able to be interpreted in a number of ways. If G-d wanted to limit the possible interpretations further than He already did, He could have written the Laws even more clearly.

Its a wonderful "opportunity" for what? To perform rituals and enact restrictions that to outsiders make no sense at all, or was the Sabbath Law given so that a day of complete rest and engagement in spiritual activities could be enjoyed as a family and a community?
Well for one thing, why would it be important that outsiders understand our rituals? For another, outsiders clearly can make sense of them as we've hand many converts over the years.
But the most important point is that you are making up your own reason for the Sabbat - at the expense of the reasons already given for it. There is no verse that says that the Sabbath was given for enjoying family and community.

It seems from the comments of other Jews that the Sabbath restrictions have to grow on you (or with you), being immersed in them from infancy, you gradually accept what to a child may seen unnecessary...even silly. That sounds like indoctrination, if you have to be virtually 'brainwashed' into "performances" as if that is all that God requires of you.
That's your indoctrination talking. The commenter you're referring to was speaking about being aware of the speed limit. There's no one who says that a driver is indoctrinated to following the speed limit. The commenter was referring to the Laws becoming natural so that you don't have to be constantly aware of it, like the speed limit that you naturally follow once you've been driving a while.

No, I don't think so. I know that an Israeli is a Jew by nationality, but that not all Israelis practice Judaism.
That insight is not reflected in the comment you made that I had responded to.

Who said that Judaism, as it was handed down by the Jewish religious leaders in times past, is founded on the original Jewish 'religion' that was given to Moses at Mt Sinai? Doesn't Israel's history of disobedience make you cautiously question how valid any of the modern day practicers really are? Or do you blindly accept them without question?
No, Israel's history of disobedience does not make me question the validity of the Rabbis. It was the nation that disobeyed, not the spiritual leaders. It wasn't Menashe and Ahab who passed down our religious traditions. It was Nathan, Elijah, Ezekiel, Isaiah and Ezra and all the other religious leaders.
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
The first (and second in the diaspora) and last (and the day after the last) follow the same rules as on the Sabbath with the exception of the Sabbath-prohibited activities that are needed for food, which are permitted on the Pilgrimages (see Ex. 12:16).
Thank you very much. This helps with something I have mentioned before. It is probably not of interest to you but most Christians believe that Jesus was crucified on Friday. This is because the next day was a sabbath and the body had to be buried before the sabbath. But a few believe he was crucified on Wednesday because he was supposed to spend three days and three night in the tomb. So if the same rules for a sabbath were in effect on Thursday, it would make sense. It is almost certain he was crucified on the day of preparation just before the first day of unleavened bread. He was probably killed at the same time as the Passover lambs were killed. Again, sorry if this is not of interest to you but it could be of great interest to some Christians. I just wish there was some strong proof that the first day of unleavened bread was on Thursday around the year3790. Thanks again.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
For @Deeje and whoever else may be interested in learning more about the Jewish concept of the Sabbath, or as we like to call it: Shabbat or Shabbos, here's a thread where you can ask your questions and we Jews will do our best to answer them.

I would appreciate if other RF Jews would also put in their two cents.

Note 1: Today is Friday, which means that in a number of hours (around sunset), I and other Shabbat keepers will be unavailable to answer questions.

Note 2: This is the Q&A section. Let's all keep our heads and try not to bash each other. :)
Why does Sabbath start with an 'S' sound? Do some people pronounce it with an 'Sh' ?

I am told it means 'Seventh'. When using it as a number count does it have to be honored in some way or is it just another number similar to five or six?
 

WhyIsThatSo

Well-Known Member
Why does Sabbath start with an 'S' sound? Do some people pronounce it with an 'Sh' ?

I am told it means 'Seventh'. When using it as a number count does it have to be honored in some way or is it just another number similar to five or six?


"sabbath" is the English pronunciation of the Hebrew verb "Shabbat", meaning "to cease".
and yes, the number 7 is significant in many ways...….and most of these ways the Jewish people are not aware of.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
"sabbath" is the English pronunciation of the Hebrew verb "Shabbat", meaning "to cease".
and yes, the number 7 is significant in many ways...….and most of these ways the Jewish people are not aware of.
You are absolutely not who I would ask, because I would ask someone who had an interest in it and who had studied and done the work. I also don't appreciate your attempts to poison the conversation. Please refrain from speaking authoritatively on a subject that is really not your business. In particular only Jewish people have been asked this question. Its the religious Q&A section, so I'm not asking for answers from the peanut gallery, which you are in. Take it to reddit or facebook and pretend to be an expert on everything there.
 

WhyIsThatSo

Well-Known Member
You are absolutely not who I would ask, because I would ask someone who had an interest in it and who had studied and done the work. I also don't appreciate your attempts to poison the conversation. Please refrain from speaking authoritatively on a subject that is really not your business. In particular only Jewish people have been asked this question. Its the religious Q&A section, so I'm not asking for answers from the peanut gallery, which you are in. Take it to reddit or facebook and pretend to be an expert on everything there.

You're right, I couldn't possibly know anything about the subject, because I'm not Jewish ?
Even if I had more interest in it than anyone in this forum ?
Even if I had spent my entire lifetime studying and researching the subject (doing the work ) ?
Well, excuse me for being so willing to truly help you.
But really.....it's about the "speaking authoritatively" part.....isn't it ?

" The people were astonished at his teaching, for he taught them as one having authority, and not as the teachers of the law "
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Why does Sabbath start with an 'S' sound? Do some people pronounce it with an 'Sh' ?
Hmm. Good question. I assume it has something to do with how Hebrew words are Latinized and/or Greekized. Kind of like how we say Yerushalayim or Yerushalem but in English it's Jerusalem.
I am told it means 'Seventh'.
The word itself means "to rest", but subsequently is often related to seven. The Hebrew word for seven is "Sheva", which is also the root word of "Shavua", week. Neither word in itself is honored in a particular way.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Instead of using common sense, the rabbis turned the restrictions into categories, as it says in Wiki...."The thirty-nine melakhot are not so much activities as categories of activity."
I've heard this before from Christian friends, this idea that "common sense should prevail, rather than laws." The problem is that this would be impossible given that Israel is a community, not just a bunch of individuals. Remember that back in the old days, the Shabbat was enforced as a criminal offense. In the Torah, breaking the Shabbat was a capital offense. In order to have a law like that, there HAD to be crystal clear understanding what was and wasn't the breaking of the Shabbat. You couldn't have one person say, "Well X is okay on the Shabbat," and another person say, "Oh, X is forbidden on the Shabbat." That wouldn't have worked.

For example, is writing forbidden or not on the Shabbat? What about watering your indoor flowers? How far can you walk? Carrying things? Selling religious items? Can you light Shabbos candles after sundown? I could go on and on.

The point I'm trying to make is that whatever decision is made, the entire community must make it together, or it is chaos.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I've heard this before from Christian friends, this idea that "common sense should prevail, rather than laws." The problem is that this would be impossible given that Israel is a community, not just a bunch of individuals. Remember that back in the old days, the Shabbat was enforced as a criminal offense. In the Torah, breaking the Shabbat was a capital offense. In order to have a law like that, there HAD to be crystal clear understanding what was and wasn't the breaking of the Shabbat. You couldn't have one person say, "Well X is okay on the Shabbat," and another person say, "Oh, X is forbidden on the Shabbat." That wouldn't have worked.

For example, is writing forbidden or not on the Shabbat? What about watering your indoor flowers? How far can you walk? Carrying things? Selling religious items? Can you light Shabbos candles after sundown? I could go on and on.

The point I'm trying to make is that whatever decision is made, the entire community must make it together, or it is chaos.

I understand the need for clear direction but when does it go beyond all common sense? Don't you think that if God had wanted 39 categories he would have made 39 categories with details included in all of them....? If it meant death to violate the Sabbath, then the details would have been important. So what constitutes work?...and what doesn't? Did God give enough details about it, counting on common sense, or didn't he?

What was required?

"Let's start with some basic activities from which we refrain on Shabbat:

  • writing, erasing, and tearing;
  • business transactions;
  • driving or riding in cars or other vehicles;
  • shopping;
  • using the telephone;
  • turning on or off anything which uses electricity, including lights, radios, television, computer, air-conditioners and alarm clocks;
  • cooking, baking or kindling a fire;
  • gardening and grass-mowing;
  • doing laundry;"
The Shabbat Laws

OK, so I see that there are clear directives for the Jewish observance, but a few have been added to accommodate modern day versions of the original restrictions. (in red) Are these interpretations really what the original law was given for?

Jesus said that "The Sabbath came into existence for the sake of man, and not man for the sake of the Sabbath."

When I read about the restrictions that the site above has listed, some questions and answers following the article, really made me shake my head.

Like this one.....

"What if someone has a tissue in their pocket but don't realize it until they reach their hand in, once they realize it they take it out and drop it on the ground -- should they have just left it, or taken it out and dropped it having it become litter? Can they then pick it up or is that prohibited?

Reply
Rabbi EK for Chabad.org June 5, 2019
in response to Anonymous:
If there is a child he may give it to a child who is a minor. If this is not the case he should walk with intervals of less than 6 feet at a time, stop and then start again until he gets home then he can put it down."


Does God care if you have a tissue in your pocket and you drop it? Does God want you to 'walk with intervals of less than 6 feet at a time, stop and then start again' all the way home? You can move something with your teeth or your elbow because you can't move it with your hands?

Another requirement was to twist the bulb in your refrigerator so that if you opened the door the light would not go on. When does it get too silly?

Another poster said that a Jew can go to war and kill his brother of another nation....yet he can't push a button in an elevator or turn on a light switch to prevent him killing or injuring himself by falling down a flight of stairs in the dark on the Sabbath?

Help me understand how it got this ridiculous....
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Welcome to start a thread on the subject of why Jews reject Jesus.

I did but the mods deleted it before I could examine the scriptures you presented there. If you would like to repost what you quoted, I would like to do some research on them. TIA.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
If you would like to repost what you quoted
I personally don't care all that much. You can start another thread if you want, but keep it less preachy this time. :rolleyes: And perhaps in another section of the site.
What we believe is what we believe, you can't change that.
 
Top