The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering.

[Beta]

URAVIP2ME - Your posts are more like the truth !
Afraid what mickiel comes up with is very derogatory to God who is loving,caring and fair. God did not deliberately set up A&E by placing satan in the garden. Adam and Eve had all their faculties to understand the warning God had given them. Eve even repeated this to the serpent Gen.3v2,3.She was not ignorant of the consequences of disobedience. God not only told them not to eat of the forbidden fruit but not to go even NEAR that tree. She did both by giving way to temptation and selfish desire.
But a good question is why was satan in the garden ? God obviously did not want to keep secrets from mankind . Satan existed (by his own wrong reasoning Ez.28. Isah.14) and man was to know about him. Don't forget God is making man in his own image and likeness so God would not keep man in the dark about satan. We could have learned all about him but A&E's disobedience brought us into a personal experience with the devil. It need never have been like that - God had warned them. I believe this was a test of obedience.
Like you say , they had ALL the other trees to eat from , God did not deprive them of a wide choice.
Let's take a leap to Heb.5v8,9. Obedience is still required for salvation even after so long a time.

 

[Beta]

I disagree totally. Adam and Eve were " Set up by God to be sinful." First God plants a tree in the garden with Evil knowledge in it, he didnot have to expose the young couple to that, he did. Then God allows satan to come into the garden. God could have protected the young couple by not allowing the serpent in , he didnot. Adam and Eve were Spiritually Blind BEFORE they ate from the Tree, because their eyes were " Opened" in Gen.3:7, AFTER they ate, NOT before, this proves that God didNOT train them or prepare them, he allowed the serpent, who was MORE wise than any other creation of God, 3:1, to go after this " Blind couple."

They were ABSOLUTELY no match for the serpent, and it was God who made sure of that.

Peace.

I think we are jumping the gun a bit here when talking about SATAN in the garden of Eden.
In the first instance it talkes about a serpent/snake. Adam and Eve may well have been spiritually blind but they certainly could see physically and that is what their attention is drawn to by God. He did not expect A&E to see satan or a devil but a SNAKE. God told them to keep away from it, from something they could see. To man this was a dangerous creature and they knew it Gen.3v2-5 , Why then did they entertain it after God had warned them ? Simple : Eve was disobedient and Adam followed her example
So we are not really talking ' spiritually ' in the garden but purely of physical things. God never expected A&E to see the spiritual since they had absolutely no concept of it.
Now this shows a different picture than the one YOU paint with spiritual knowledge. A&E only had ' natural ' knowledge. It is wrong to apply OUR concept today to their situation then.

 

[mickiel]

I think we are jumping the gun a bit here when talking about SATAN in the garden of Eden.
In the first instance it talkes about a serpent/snake. Adam and Eve may well have been spiritually blind but they certainly could see physically and that is what their attention is drawn to by God. He did not expect A&E to see satan or a devil but a SNAKE. God told them to keep away from it, from something they could see. To man this was a dangerous creature and they knew it Gen.3v2-5 , Why then did they entertain it after God had warned them ? Simple : Eve was disobedient and Adam followed her example quote

In Rev. 12:9 satan is called a " Serpent", its clear to me that he was in the garden of Eden. And they entertained the Serpent, not because they were disobedient, but because they didNOT have Gods Spirit in them, they wereNOT trained in Righteousness by God, they were NOT properly prepared by God, and God didNOT protect them.


Quote
So we are not really talking ' spiritually ' in the garden but purely of physical things. God never expected A&E to see the spiritual since they had absolutely no concept of it.
Now this shows a different picture than the one YOU paint with spiritual knowledge. A&E only had ' natural ' knowledge. It is wrong to apply OUR concept today to their situation then.

I am talking about their lack of Spirituality, that WHY we all sin, because we do not have on the Armour of God to protect us from sin. God didNOT dress the first couple with conscious, with his Armour, he just didNOT. THATS WHY they were deceived.

Peace.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I am talking about their lack of Spirituality, that WHY we all sin, because we do not have on the Armour of God to protect us from sin. God didNOT dress the first couple with conscious, with his Armour, he just didNOT. THATS WHY they were deceived.
Peace.

Do you mean free will did not protect them from sin?

Remember free-willed Satan and the other angels were created as perfect spirit creation.
They also had voluntary free will to choose to obey and love their Creator.
With perfection either in heaven or on earth when perfection sins it is only on purpose not by accident. Once perfection sins they do not repent or show sorrow or remorse. However, we can because we are still imperfect.

A&E were conscious of what was going on but I think you meant conscience?
Conscience did not develop in the animal creation. Since Adam is our family head we inherit from him. So since we have a conscience then so did Adam.
The difference being that Adam was humanly perfect in healthy mind and body and could only choose on purpose what he wanted to do.
I guess sort of an instant discernment to choose right if one wished or willed.

 

[Beta]

I am talking about their lack of Spirituality, that WHY we all sin, because we do not have on the Armour of God to protect us from sin. God didNOT dress the first couple with conscious, with his Armour, he just didNOT. THATS WHY they were deceived.

Peace.

Of course there was lack of spirituality in A & E because they were to have 'chosen ' it by eating from the tree of Life.
Had God ' dressed ' them with it (as you say) they would have been ' without free choice ', been made into robots with no say . That just was not God's plan for mankind. God wants man to participate with him and be personally involved as Partners , as Family-members and not be robotic servants.
But in order to reach that high status with God man needs to learn from God in obedience. Jesus is our example as we see in Heb.5v8,9.
OBEDIENCE is something man does not want to suject himself to because of satanic influence on him. We could have learnt all about satan without the bitter experiences of him if only we had been obedient to God. The same still holds today.

 

[Beta]

Do you mean free will did not protect them from sin?

Remember free-willed Satan and the other angels were created as perfect spirit creation.
They also had voluntary free will to choose to obey and love their Creator.
With perfection either in heaven or on earth when perfection sins it is only on purpose not by accident. Once perfection sins they do not repent or show sorrow or remorse. However, we can because we are still imperfect.

A&E were conscious of what was going on but I think you meant conscience?
Conscience did not develop in the animal creation. Since Adam is our family head we inherit from him. So since we have a conscience then so did Adam.
The difference being that Adam was humanly perfect in healthy mind and body and could only choose on purpose what he wanted to do.
I guess sort of an instant discernment to choose right if one wished or willed.

You are bringing out a lot of valid points friend. It is true that those made spirit can not change. But because we are 'Matter' we can still change (or be changed with our agreement). That is what God looks for in man = a willingness to become God-like. Mankind is not yet a finished, completed Creation but it needs our personal participation through obedience Heb.5v8,9.

 

[mickiel]

Of course there was lack of spirituality in A & E because they were to have 'chosen ' it by eating from the tree of Life.
Had God ' dressed ' them with it (as you say) they would have been ' without free choice ', been made into robots with no say . That just was not God's plan for mankind. God wants man to participate with him and be personally involved as Partners , as Family-members and not be robotic servants.
But in order to reach that high status with God man needs to learn from God in obedience. Jesus is our example as we see in Heb.5v8,9.
OBEDIENCE is something man does not want to suject himself to because of satanic influence on him. We could have learnt all about satan without the bitter experiences of him if only we had been obedient to God. The same still holds today.

Humanity has no say with God, that is a religious pacified illusion. God has not set up a participation Salvation, he's giving it free with no cost. With no participation, no help from humanity.

Its a finished work, God does not need obedience from mankind, he needs nothing of the sort.

You just can't handle that he needs nothing from you.

Peace.

 

[Beta]

Humanity has no say with God, that is a religious pacified illusion. God has not set up a participation Salvation, he's giving it free with no cost. With no participation, no help from humanity.

Its a finished work, God does not need obedience from mankind, he needs nothing of the sort.

You just can't handle that he needs nothing from you.

Peace.

God does not NEED man's help God does not NEED man's participation. You misunderstand !
there is a difference of needing something to just including them in your plan because you love them and want to share with them. Love is the reason we are included not because we are needed. Perhaps this is an alien concept to you but LOVE figures high with God.

 

[mickiel]

God does not NEED man's help God does not NEED man's participation. You misunderstand !
.

I misdunderstand, good greif! Let me show you Jesus power to cause all humans to submit to him, even those humans your religion seeks to exclude; Phil. 2:10," That in the name of Jesus EVERY kneee should bow, those in Heaven, those alive on earth, and those dead under the earth!" Look at this incredible Salvation Power, even those humans who are dead are destined to bow, which means submission and conversion! Your understanding is looking to limit this incredible Atonement.

THIS is the will, the unstoppable will of God, 2Pet. 3:9;" The Lords plan is not falling backwards, as some religions teach, but he is incredibly patient, and he has NOT willed that any single human perish, but he has willed that all humans will come into repentance." See this is how God is, and obviously he has not YET willed for this to occur, because all humans have not yet repented, but thats their God ordained destiny. Jesus said if he be lifted up, he will draw ALL of humanity to him. Well they are not now drawn, so God is not trying to do that now.

Peace.

 

[AK4]

I like how you brought out that Eve SAW [the tree was good to eat] and DESIRED. Since the tree itself was not poisonous Eve could have observed SAW animals eating some of its fruit and nothing happening to them.
The point was: Obedience. By falling for the lie of Gen 3v4 they were taking refuge in a lie with Romans 5v12 best describing what happened because of Adam and Eve.

Gen 3v13 mentions 'who' afflicted Eve because after sinning Eve in effect was saying that Satan is the Master of Deception by her saying it was Satan who beguiled her.

Rev 12v3,4 shows to what large extent Satan beguiles or deceives because pre-flood fallen angels would be numbered among those one third.

People like to have warranties knowing that if something goes wrong they are protected and will be taken care of. But warranties require people to keep up their end of the requirements. Keep up their end of the obligations for the requirements to be met. Proverbs 18v10 informs God's name is a strong tower. The righteous run to it and are safe. If Adam and Eve would have kept their obligation to obey God they would have been kept safe and been given protection from Satan.

It amazes me that no one can see that Eve SINNED BEFORE she even touched the fruit.

Just prior to Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit, we read that Eve:

"…saw that the tree was good for food [‘the lust of the flesh,’ I John 2:16],
and that it was pleasant to the eyes [‘the lust of the eyes,’ I John 2:16],
and a tree to be desired to make one wise [‘the pride of life,’ I John 2:16],
she did eat… and he did eat" (Gen. 3:6).
​

So committing these sins before even touching the fruit shows also that man was not a perfect being when created. There was no fall and no freewill for them to do other than what God wanted them to do.

 

[mickiel]

It amazes me that no one can see that Eve SINNED BEFORE she even touched the fruit.

Just prior to Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit, we read that Eve:

"…saw that the tree was good for food [‘the lust of the flesh,’ I John 2:16],
and that it was pleasant to the eyes [‘the lust of the eyes,’ I John 2:16],
and a tree to be desired to make one wise [‘the pride of life,’ I John 2:16],
she did eat… and he did eat" (Gen. 3:6).
​

So committing these sins before even touching the fruit shows also that man was not a perfect being when created. There was no fall and no freewill for them to do other than what God wanted them to do.

Oh excellent points, very good.

Peace.

 

[LittleNipper]

It amazes me that no one can see that Eve SINNED BEFORE she even touched the fruit.

Just prior to Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit, we read that Eve:

"…saw that the tree was good for food [‘the lust of the flesh,’ I John 2:16],
and that it was pleasant to the eyes [‘the lust of the eyes,’ I John 2:16],
and a tree to be desired to make one wise [‘the pride of life,’ I John 2:16],
she did eat… and he did eat" (Gen. 3:6).
​

So committing these sins before even touching the fruit shows also that man was not a perfect being when created. There was no fall and no freewill for them to do other than what God wanted them to do.

But the reality is that until they ate of the fruit, they didn't have a clue what sin was. Afterwards, they understood and were trapped by that understanding.

 

[mickiel]

But the reality is that until they ate of the fruit, they didn't have a clue what sin was. Afterwards, they understood and were trapped by that understanding.

Well I agree with this also, you both are right.

Peace.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

It amazes me that no one can see that Eve SINNED BEFORE she even touched the fruit.
Just prior to Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit, we read that Eve:
"…saw that the tree was good for food [‘the lust of the flesh,’ I John 2:16], and that it was pleasant to the eyes [‘the lust of the eyes,’ I John 2:16], and a tree to be desired to make one wise [‘the pride of life,’ I John 2:16], she did eat… and he did eat" (Gen. 3:6).
So committing these sins before even touching the fruit shows also that man was not a perfect being when created. There was no fall and no freewill for them to do other than what God wanted them to do.

Let's see what God wanted them to do:

Doesn't Genesis tell us God did Not want them to touch or eat of his tree?

By saying ' Do not' doesn't that tell us what God wanted them to avoid?

Since God warned them 'Not to do it and why' also shows what God wanted them to avoid doing.

Looks like Satan's tactics haven't changed.:
When you say food [lust of the flesh] Satan's been tempting us with excesses ever since.
Looks as if Adam and Eve ate us out of house and home!
At least until God's kingdom, with Christ as his crowned king, ushers in Peace on Earth toward men of goodwill.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

But the reality is that until they ate of the fruit, they didn't have a clue what sin was. Afterwards, they understood and were trapped by that understanding.

Isn't disobedience: sin?
Obey are you will be benefited with everlasting life.
Disobey and you die.
What's not to understand?

Breaking men's law might not be called sin but a crime
So by breaking God's law they committed a crime.
A crime that carried the death penalty with it.
What's not to understand?

 

[AK4]

But the reality is that until they ate of the fruit, they didn't have a clue what sin was. Afterwards, they understood and were trapped by that understanding.

Do you have a chpater and verse to support this or are you just parroting what youve been told by those same people who brought you the hell doctrine? Eve knew that she shouldnt eat of the fruit, so she knew right from wrong. She sinned in her heart before eating the fruit and then actually committed the sin afterwards. This is scriptural, but what you say has not one scripture to back it up.

 

[AK4]

Let's see what God wanted them to do:

Doesn't Genesis tell us God did Not want them to touch or eat of his tree?

By saying ' Do not' doesn't that tell us what God wanted them to avoid?

Since God warned them 'Not to do it and why' also shows what God wanted them to avoid doing.

Looks like Satan's tactics haven't changed.:
When you say food [lust of the flesh] Satan's been tempting us with excesses ever since.
Looks as if Adam and Eve ate us out of house and home!
At least until God's kingdom, with Christ as his crowned king, ushers in Peace on Earth toward men of goodwill.

I dont know what is the point of this post.

God said He wants us to shun evil and avoid and not do it, yet guess what He did?

Ecc 1:13 "an experience of EVIL God has given man"

So God, wanting us to avoid evil, puts us right in the middle of it. Put a bowl of cookies on the table, then place a 2 year old at a table and tell that 2 year not to touch or eat any of the cookies. See how well that works too. Or how intentional was it that [1] you placed some cookies on the table, [2] you put the child right there in arms reach to get the cookies [3] do you really not expect, no let me change that for God since HE IS ALL KNOWING, "declaring the END from the BEGINNING", do you not KNOW that the child will try to eat the cookies.

This god you praise, just how "all knowing" and purpose driven is he?

 

[LittleNipper]

Isn't disobedience: sin?
Obey are you will be benefited with everlasting life.
Disobey and you die.
What's not to understand?

Breaking men's law might not be called sin but a crime
So by breaking God's law they committed a crime.
A crime that carried the death penalty with it.
What's not to understand?

Satan in the form of the serpant essentually tells Adam & Eve that GOD is withholding knowledge from them that will make them just like GOD. GOD cannot be trusted. You need to take matters into your own hands and you will be like the MOST HIGH.

 

[LittleNipper]

Do you have a chpater and verse to support this or are you just parroting what youve been told by those same people who brought you the hell doctrine? Eve knew that she shouldnt eat of the fruit, so she knew right from wrong. She sinned in her heart before eating the fruit and then actually committed the sin afterwards. This is scriptural, but what you say has not one scripture to back it up.

THEY DIDN'T POSSESS THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL UNTIL AFTER THEY ATE OF THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL.

See Genesis 3:11

 

[Agnostic75]

Message to LittleNipper: Are you an inerrantist? If so, what evidence do you have that the Bible is inerrant? By "inerrant," I mean "God inspired and preserved the originals free of errors except for obvious scribal and copyist errors."