The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering.

[mickiel]

But that is what the texts clearly say.

What do you believe justifies what God does, his power? The author of Romans chapter 9 says so.

I don't believe those texts, or their translations. I don't believe Jesus was tortured, only that humans could be tortured forever. I don't believe that. I believe in Gods unchanging characther, he will in no manner punish forever, NO!

I don't believe that, because it does not fit Gods characther.

Peace.

 

[Agnostic75]

I don't believe those texts, or their translations.

But even if you wish to use the Greek, the texts still claim that God will torture the Beast and some people in hell for eternity, and without parole. You have created the kind of God that you want, not the God of the Bible, and not the kind of God that injures and kills people and innocent animals with hurricanes.

In your opinion, what justifies God's actions, his power? The author of Romans chapter 9 says so.

 

[mickiel]

But even if you wish to use the Greek, the texts still claim that God will torture the Beast and some people in hell for eternity, and without parole. You have created the kind of God that you want, not the God of the Bible, and not the kind of God that injures and kills people and innocent animals with hurricanes.

In your opinion, what justifies God's actions, his power? The author of Romans chapter 9 says so.

I like the way I view God, and would have it no other way. He willnot torture anyone forever, that is insanity, and God is not insane, the views of men are.

Peace.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

No, as I showed, some Scriptures indicate that the Beast and some people will be tormented forever without parole.

Scripture uses tormented, instead of tortured, because a tormentor was a jailer as he was called at Matthew 18:30,34.

Since Revelation defines the lake of fire as being the second death, then the second death of Rev 21:8 will be death without parole.

Jesus likened death at John 11:11-14 as being in a deep sleep-like state.
So the second death would be like that but with no possibility of future life or resurrection to future life beyond second death.
Or as Jeremiah 51:57 says sleep a perpetual sleep and not wake up.

The lake or second death is not the same as Rev 20:13,14 mentions where all in hell will be delivered up. Once all in hell [gravedom] are resurrected during Jesus peaceful 1000-year reign over earth, then emptied-out hell dies a symbolic death of no returning because emptied-out hell is cast into second death.

 

[Muffled]

This is ludicris. How can one truly reject this pardon when it takes God to give them the faith of Jesus to want it? They can only reject it if God never gave them the faith to accept it. They can only accept it if God gave them the faith to accept it anyway.

You sound like a Calvinist! This says that God only saves who He feels like saving as though John 3:16 never was written.

 

[AK4]

But even if you wish to use the Greek, the texts still claim that God will torture the Beast and some people in hell for eternity, and without parole. .

No the greek doesnt. Not at all. The greek Hades never indicated an eternal torture in real fire. Where do you get eternal torture in real fire, unspeakable pain, fury, devils and demons in the greek word hades which means the umperceptible, unseen? Even the greek words aion and aionis never meant eternity, so right there your theory fails.

 

[AK4]

You sound like a Calvinist! .

Oh and since when do calvinists believe in the salvation of all, in heaven and earth and under the earth? Calvin and his followers are some of the most demented minded individuals who believe that God would know beforehand that He would create 99% of His creation to be tortured and barbequed in eternity. Unbelievable!

This says that God only saves who He feels like saving as though John 3:16 never was written

Oh my bad. All those scriptures that says "I chose you. You dont chose me" "No one comes to me except the Father DRAGS them" "No one comes to the Father except through Me" "Its the goodness of God that LEADS you to repentance" "For it is God who works in you BOTH TO WILL and TO DO" "I will do all My pleasure" "God not willing any to perish" "God who will save all men, especially those who believe" "faith...a gift of God... and not of yourselves" etc etc doesnt say that it is all on God who saves who He likes? I dont know what i was thinking then.

Man, the lengths people go to defend the myth of freewill and the idol of their heart, the god sitting on the throne claiming himself to be a god.

 

[Muffled]

God is not responsible? Who created us? Who created evil? Who put us on earth? Who made this earth this way in the first place when we know He could have made it different? Who made all the circumstances that we experience? Who created satan to decieve us?

Timidity is not found in christians? Thats funny.If it wasnt then you would find millions of people challenging their pastors about what they teach. Theres more timidity in christianity than islam and probably any other religion. How timid are you to find out the truth of what the bible teaches on freewill? Find out the truth and you will have to step down off your throne that belongs to Jesus.

Let me add that christians are so timid about finding out the truth that they have a saying about them. "Hell has no fury like a christian shown the truth".

No! Not for evil.

Evil is not a creation. It is the destruction of creation. The one responsible is the one who steals, kills and destroys.

God and said "It is good."

It was different before it was marred by evil. It was all created Good.

Circumstances are not made. They temporily exist because of choices that were made.

No one that I know of. However God did create angels one of which became evil of his own volition.

I doubt this has anything to do with timidity.

Maybe this would be true in Catholic circles but protestants are far less tied to orthodoxy than Muslims.

I haven't ever heard that expression but I find people in all religions resist the truth if it is different from what they wish to believe. I would imagine that you fall in the same boat.

 

[AK4]

Scripture uses tormented, instead of tortured, because a tormentor was a jailer as he was called at Matthew 18:30,34.

Since Revelation defines the lake of fire as being the second death, then the second death of Rev 21:8 will be death without parole.

Jesus likened death at John 11:11-14 as being in a deep sleep-like state.
So the second death would be like that but with no possibility of future life or resurrection to future life beyond second death.
Or as Jeremiah 51:57 says sleep a perpetual sleep and not wake up.

The lake or second death is not the same as Rev 20:13,14 mentions where all in hell will be delivered up. Once all in hell [gravedom] are resurrected during Jesus peaceful 1000-year reign over earth, then emptied-out hell dies a symbolic death of no returning because emptied-out hell is cast into second death.

Why are you still promoting this rubbish? Tell me, where is the Day of the Lord in your scenario if when Jesus returns and a "1000 years of peace" starts then? Does it happen before or after this "reign"? If it happens before then why is people NOW still "storing up wrath" and if after then who are the inhabitants of the earth who "will learn rightousness" if they are to be annihilated in the second death? The only way you can answer these is if you contradict even more scripture. Good luck!

 

[Muffled]

Also, it is not "I" who makes Him responsible. He says He is responsible for all things or do you think God lied when He states this over and over in the scriptures?

He

I don't remember seeing anything like that but I am sure you could find a scripture or two if you wished. The question would be whether that scripture validly proves your point.

Exactly my point. You may try but you will not be able.

 

[AK4]

No! Not for evil.

Evil is not a creation. It is the destruction of creation. The one responsible is the one who steals, kills and destroys.

God and said "It is good."

It was different before it was marred by evil. It was all created Good.

Right here shows the timidity in christians! They cant handle the truth! God plainly states


Isa 45:7 - I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
and

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]Am 3:6 -Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid ‡9? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? [/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva][/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]Timid. Plain statements in the bible that have been translated correctly and yet christians who supposed to believe the Word of God DONT BELIEVE THE WORD OF GOD! Just how timid are you to test your faith and doctrines to the Word of God and be and realise that "it is an experience of EVIL GOD [not man, not satan] has given humanity to humble him thereby" {Ecc 1:13 {CLV}}[/FONT]

Circumstances are not made. They temporily exist because of choices that were made.

This is the most unthought out thought ive ever heard. Do you actually believe this?

No one that I know of. However God did create angels one of which became evil of his own volition.

Oh and i guess an ALL KNOWING, ALL POWERFUL God who says He knows "the END from the beginning" never knew that [if they they were created with freewill [i only use this for your silly argument]] the things He created wouldnt become evil. Oh how yall demean God with this freewill bullcrap.

I doubt this has anything to do with timidity.

Maybe this would be true in Catholic circles but protestants are far less tied to orthodoxy than Muslims.

Seriously, how far has protestants gotten away from their mother the catholics. Catholics made sunday the sabbath and the whole protestant world still bows in submission to this decree made by the catholics. Same thing with the hell doctrine. Gimme a break.

I haven't ever heard that expression but I find people in all religions resist the truth if it is different from what they wish to believe. I would imagine that you fall in the same boat.

That expression comes from those who have been shown the truth and once were what people associate as christians. By definition, yes im still a christian, one who believes in Christ, but thats about as far as it goes with christendom. The only thing i resist is lies, falsifications, and half truths. If something is true then i have no choice but to accept it if i truly love the truth even if it destroys what i had previously believed. How many christians, protestant or catholic or whatever will do this? Hardly none.

 

[AK4]

I don't remember seeing anything like that but I am sure you could find a scripture or two if you wished. The question would be whether that scripture validly proves your point.

Exactly my point. You may try but you will not be able.

Yet, all is of God, who conciliates us to Himself through Christ, and is giving us the dispensation of the conciliation,
how that God was in Christ, conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offenses to them, and placing in us the
word of conciliation." (II Corinthians 5:18-19)

Rom 11:36 -
For from R536 Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To R537 Him {be} the glory forever. F193 Amen.
“For by Him [Jesus] were ALL things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible [unseen powers], whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers; all things were created by Him, and for Him. And He is before all things and by Him all things consist [‘has its cohesion,’ ]” (Col. 1:16-17).

Eph 1:11 -
also F14 we have F15 R30 obtained an inheritance, having been predestined R31 according R32 to His purpose who works all things after R33 the counsel of His will,

“…God which works [‘operates’] all in all ” (I Cor. 12:6).

“For in Him we LIVE, and MOVE, and have our BEING [Gk: ‘we ARE’—we exist]…” (Acts 17:28).

“O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself. It is not in man that walks to direct his steps” (Jer. 10:23).

“Man’s goings [Heb: ‘steps’] are of the Lord; how can a man then understand his own way?” (Prov. 20:24).

“The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the Lord.” (Prov. 16:1).

“The Son of man [Jesus] can do nothing of Himself… without Me [Jesus] ye [all of you—all of mankind] can do nothing” (John 5:19 & 15:5].

“For God, Who commanded the light to shine out of darkness [not ‘in’ darkness], has shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.” (II Cor. 4:6).

“Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power BUT OF GOD: THE POWERS THAT BE ARE ORDAINED OF GOD” (Rom. 13:1).

“Then said Pilate unto Him, speak you not unto me? Know you not that I have power to crucify you, and have power to release you? Jesus answered, You could have no power at all against me except it was given you from above; therefore he that delivered Me unto you has the greater power” (John 19:10-11).

Etc etc etc etc. Do you still not believe the scriptures now? Did i "try but not be able" to prove my God and validate His words?

 

[Beta]

We all make the mistake of lumping everybody together when talking of religion or denominations.
Now what GOD says is that the WHOLE WORLD is deceived Rev.12v9. I take that to mean everybody. So would God choose any one of them to be his own true church ? OF COURSE NOT !!!
He builds his own Church from single people taken out of this confused world and CONVERTED. they are the only ones no longer deceived , they only are the called and elect. In the OT God started with one man - Abraham. In the NT God/Jesus selected 12 men as his followers. At Christ's return there will be 144.000 in the first resurrection. But it is not the only one. Creation (regeneration) goes on until ALL people have submitted to conversion or have rejected it. We may not have much say in anything else but our original agreement and participation are required. God will not convert anyone against their will.
Our free Will certainly matters to God !

 

[AK4]

We all make the mistake of lumping everybody together when talking of religion or denominations.
Now what GOD says is that the WHOLE WORLD is deceived Rev.12v9. I take that to mean everybody. So would God choose any one of them to be his own true church ? OF COURSE NOT !!!
He builds his own Church from single people taken out of this confused world and CONVERTED. they are the only ones no longer deceived , they only are the called and elect. In the OT God started with one man - Abraham. In the NT God/Jesus selected 12 men as his followers. At Christ's return there will be 144.000 in the first resurrection. But it is not the only one. Creation (regeneration) goes on until ALL people have submitted to conversion or have rejected it.
Our free Will certainly matters to God !

And where does freewill fit in this verse " For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure"? Also please show me a scripture that says God gave man a freewill. 144,000 is a symbol not literal. Other than those i can agree with you.

 

[Beta]

And where does freewill fit in this verse " For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure"? Also please show me a scripture that says God gave man a freewill. 144,000 is a symbol not literal. Other than those i can agree with you.

Basically we have a choice of obeying God or not Deut.30v19. God puts before us life and death, blessings and curses therefore CHOOSE life. If nobody had any say then why do we have atheists set against God ? It is after all God's Will that none perish but come to repentance. I do believe that God also works in atheists to turn them from unbelieve but it will certainly take much longer than a person with a more submissive nature. Since man only lives a short space of time some stubborn people may well loose out in the end running out of time.
What makes you think the 144.000 are not real people ? What is all human suffering and conversion/regeneration/eternal life about if not to fulfill reality in the future ? GOD is real, Jesus is real and we shall be real with and alongside them.

 

[AK4]

Basically we have a choice of obeying God or not Deut.30v19. God puts before us life and death, blessings and curses therefore CHOOSE life. If nobody had any say then why do we have atheists set against God ? It is after all God's Will that none perish but come to repentance. I do believe that God also works in atheists to turn them from unbelieve but it will certainly take much longer than a person with a more submissive nature.

We do make choices, but choice and freewill are not the same thing.

Since man only lives a short space of time some stubborn people may well loose out in the end running out of time.

This false doctrine of the church that says this is the only day of salvation is why many think its a one time shot to be saved. Although the scriptures say otherwise.

What makes you think the 144.000 are not real people ?

Oh there real people. Im just saying that the number is not literal, just like the 1000 years. The very first verse of Revelation says that it is a book of symbols.

What is all human suffering and conversion/regeneration/eternal life about if not to fulfill reality in the future ? GOD is real, Jesus is real and we shall be real with and alongside them.

I never said it wasnt real and what you read read in Revelation is all about how the human must suffer and be converted and see the beast that is themselves and how one "comes out of her" [Babylon].

 

[Beta]

We do make choices, but choice and freewill are not the same thing.

This false doctrine of the church that says this is the only day of salvation is why many think its a one time shot to be saved. Although the scriptures say otherwise.

Oh there real people. Im just saying that the number is not literal, just like the 1000 years. The very first verse of Revelation says that it is a book of symbols.

I never said it wasnt real and what you read read in Revelation is all about how the human must suffer and be converted and see the beast that is themselves and how one "comes out of her" [Babylon].

We seem to disagree on choice and free will though I see no difference in the case of Deut.30v19. How can it not be free will when asked to choose ?
I checked out the first verse of Rev.and it says nothing about that book being of symbols though I agree much of it is written in symbolic language. That does not mean it has no literal substance. Whatever is spiritual is also real though not seen or understood by man without the HS of God.
You have a better explanation of the 144'000 and the 1000 year rule of Christ ?
Suffering is the result of satans impact on man and can not be avoided. It's a fact and not something imagined. Lucky you if you have not experienced evil .

Missed out my reply to salvation. NO, now is not the only day except for those called. Others will get their turn in their own order 1Cor.15v23.

 

[berrychrisc]

But that is what the texts clearly say.

There isn't anything "clear" about the texts at all. The texts were written at various times by different authors (or groups of authors) who didn't necessarily have the same beliefs about who Jesus actually was or what path Christianity should take. Thus we get a New Testament with contradictions and obscure directives. Add in the fact that we live 2000 years in the future and are from an entirely different culture and one can see why there are so many differences of opinion about what Jesus taught. For example, I can guarantee that Sarah Palin's version of Jesus is completely different from mine.

 

[mickiel]

There isn't anything "clear" about the texts at all. The texts were written at various times by different authors (or groups of authors) who didn't necessarily have the same beliefs about who Jesus actually was or what path Christianity should take. Thus we get a New Testament with contradictions and obscure directives. Add in the fact that we live 2000 years in the future and are from an entirely different culture and one can see why there are so many differences of opinion about what Jesus taught. For example, I can guarantee that Sarah Palin's version of Jesus is completely different from mine.

Very good points, of which I agree wholeheartedly.

Peace.

 

[Agnostic75]

I really am looking to understand God, but not this God that humans teach, but the real God of Love, Joy and Peace.

How do you propose that people find out what God is really like, including what his motives are?