AK4
Well-Known Member
Also, it is not "I" who makes Him responsible. He says He is responsible for all things or do you think God lied when He states this over and over in the scriptures?
He is responsible, we are accountable.
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The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering.
- Thread starter mickiel
- Start date
Also, it is not "I" who makes Him responsible. He says He is responsible for all things or do you think God lied when He states this over and over in the scriptures?
He is responsible, we are accountable.
Danmac
Well-Known Member
God doesn't give faith. Man is in a lost state and will not seek after God.
Ro 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Man is lost and without God and cannot come to God unless he is wooed by the holy Ghost.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
That is when God gives the invitation. If one rejects the invitation, the door is closed and may or may not open again.
Mt 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
mickiel
Well-Known Member
The sick concept of eternal hell suffering " Confirms that religion is sick itself." What brings humans to the point of believing totally in things that are not true? What makes the mind of the believer in God, both objective and subjective at the same time? Why the confusion?
And I want to go into that.
Peace.
And I want to go into that.
Peace.
Doesn't 'babel' indicate confusion?
Trace mankind's religious family tree back to its roots in ancient pagan Babylon and we can start to unfold that such a pagan religious idea is sick in itself.
It was Not until first-century Christianity ended that pagan ideas such as eternal suffering became blended and mixed into a so-called Christianity not found in first-century Christian teachings as recorded in Scripture.
During the so-called dark ages people had no or little access to Scripture and the false clergy could use grave fire as a tactic to scare people to control them by making them afraid.
Jesus was plain and clear that the dead sleep the deep sleep of death until resurrection day. - John 11:11-14; 24; - Daniel 12:2,13.
mickiel
Well-Known Member
There is a " Missing Link" in the mind of man. There is " A Spirit in Man", and that Spirit is Consciousness. Consciousness is one of the " Seven Spirits of God". In order for man to have a deep understanding of God, he needs a " Second Spirit from God." Without that second Spirit, we will just continue to be both objective and subjective, both Good and Evil, and all that we think about and consider, will be filtered through this ball of confusion.
And I want to continue on this.
Peace.
Danmac
Well-Known Member
So if only God can give faith why did he choose not to give any to the people Jesus was referring to here?
Mt 17:17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
Did Jesus forget to give faith to Thomas?
Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
Why did he tell Thomas to "be not faithless? Why didn't he just give him some faith.
According to this verse not all men have faith. Why not?
2Th 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.
No, we can say that the Holy Ghost opens the door and calls the sinner to repentance. They can reject the wooing.
51 ¶ Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Prov 1: 24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
Gen 6: 3 ¶ And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
Ro 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
If God doesn't give faith then why did the apostles at Luke 17:5 ask for more faith?______
Also isn't it the responsibility of the person to 'seek' or keep on seeking God as Acts 17:11, 27; Isaiah 55:6; Deut. 4:29 indicates?________
James 4:8 says we are the ones that are to draw close to God.
Don't we draw close to God by approaching him in prayer and through the pages of Scripture as Jesus set the example.
At Romans 3:11 wasn't Paul referring to Isaiah 59:7-20? ______
This was Not in reference to mankind in general, but in regard to those who claimed to be following God namely the Jews. So the sorry state today among so-called Christians parallels that of Isaiah's day because they claim to be Christian but their actions and immoral behavior prove otherwise.
- see 2nd Tim 3:1-5,13; Matt chapter 7.
Bird123
Well-Known Member
You are closer to understanding God than most. If God can create the universe, He can handle a few wayward kids without frying them. Hell is the tool of religion. Religions must have believers, followers. If they can't get you to believe, they try to scare you into believing. In case people do not know. BELIEVING HAS NEVER BEEN IMPORTANT TO GOD!!!
I think you will find that believing IS important to God Heb.11v6
it is the beginning of our faith and growth in the knowledge of God.
We should never under-estimate small beginnings, God has much to say on that !
mickiel
Well-Known Member
Nothing humans do is important to God. Isaiah 40:17;" All the nations are as nothing before him, they are " Reguared BY HIM as LESS than Nothing and Meaningless."
This is how God feels about humanitys faith. This is how he feels about religion, and religious people. Its how he feels about ALL Nations.
You may not accept this, but its how HE has revealed HIS feelings.
Peace.
This is merely a snippet of the message, in it's entiretyyou will see that this is not what God is saying.
mickiel
Well-Known Member
You cannot predict to me what I see or willnot see. I have explained just what I see and understand, and God explians himself. Isaiah 40:17, God says that he reguards all humans as LESS than nothing. Not just as nothing, but he said LESS than nothing! In verse 15 he said the nations are as a " Drop from a bucket", or a speck of dust on a scale. In vs. 23 he said the judges on the earth are meaningless to him.
What means something to God is his PLAN for humanity, which nothing can stop, including the meaningless beliefs of religious humanity. In Isaiah 45:23, God swears and oath to himself., not to humanity, but to himself he makes a Holy Promise! That to him EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tounge will Confess, ( which means human conversion, submission and confession).
THIS is what means something to God, the complette, TOTAL rehabilitation of ALL of humanity, a vision Christianity is not Holy enough to see.
Peace.
You are right in a way - in our present perverted ,ruined , disobedient and deceived human state we are useless to God.
But to say he will force us into submission is not quite true. WE have a say in whether or not we want to submit/obey Deut.30v19,20. We can choose.
mickiel
Well-Known Member
I disagree, our destiny is to be with God, not to " Choose" to be with him. I do not believe Salvation is based on human choice, God wouldnot have set it up like that, too many would be lost because of our tendency to choose foolishly. Salvation is not based on human will, human ability, human goodness or anything human, that is a deeply rooted deception hatched by the devil and religion. Salvation is based SOLEY on the Death and Life of Christ, NOTHINGELSE! Its based on what Jesus has already done, not on what humans do.
Such is my belief.
Peace.
Again I would agree with you up to a point.
When we are given choice it is the most 'basic' grasp of what God is doing. If we don't basically WANT to hear or accept God then nothing else will make sense either. It is absolutely because of Christ that we can be saved and nothing because of our own selves but none of this will move a person UNTIL they have a basic feeling for God and a willingness to hear him.
mickiel
Well-Known Member
Salvation is not based on human understanding and human will, you keep trying to make room for that. Even the human willingness to hear God, comes from God, not from the human. Psaul in Gal. 1:12, " For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through Jesus Christ revealing it to me." That is the process, it comes from God, not from free will self choice.
In 2Corinth. 5:14, " For the Love of Christ Controls us." This has nothing to do with choose or participation. The willingness to consider God does not come from self will. 2Corinth. 3:5;" Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as comming from ourselves, but our adequacy comes FROM God." See you are trying to make room for human will to be adequate enough to make its own choices, see then a human could give themselves credit for their salvation, thinking they have it because of their choice, and then glory in that choice.
Eph. 2:8;" For by grace you are saved through ( Gods faith) faith, and that " NOT of yourselves, it is the gift of God!" Salvation is NOT a result of self choice, not of YOURSELVES, its a free Gift!
Even simple belief in God is GIVEN by God! Belief is NOT self generated. Phil. 1:29;" For to you " It Has Been GRANTED for Christ sake, not only to believe, but also to suffer." Belief is GRANTED by God, not worked up within the human ability to decide.
Phil. 2:13;" For " IT IS GOD" who is at work in you, to BOTH WILL and work for his good pleasure." The human very will to consider God, comes FROM God.
See we have been taught deception, thinking that it is our own minds, own will, own choice to believe in God, that is NOT true. God molds the human mind to believe AND not believe!
And I want to go into that.
Peace.
I actually agree with all the scriptures you quoted yet I think there is room for human agreement and participation.
Heb.10v38 , the just shall live by faith; but if any man draw back my soul shall have no pleasure in him. To 'draw back' would suggest a human decision for God would not cause us to do so. If we had no say in our conversion whatever we would not enter the Kgd of God through free-will, would we ? We would be either kidnapped or prisoners and neither state would reflect a loving caring God. Also see Heb.12v17 how Esau missed out on salvation through choice.
Please note I am not saying we get Eternal life by our own choice, will or effort but what little we can offer in agreement to him from a willing heart God will not refuse.
mickiel
Well-Known Member
Well no God willnot refuse a willing Heart, unless its not the time for that heart to come. In John 6:44, no willing heart can even come to God, unless they are first drawn by God, that is the bottomline point. Listen, in Acts 17:28, it says that in Christ, we Live, and Move and have our being. There is no room for free will in that, thats total control. We live because of him, not our will, we move because of him, not our own choice, and we exist and have our personalitys and future, all because of him.
In Jeremiah 10:23, it states that a mans way is NOT in himself, nor is it in a man to direct his own path. This means that our will is insufficent to direct us to God, God himself has to draw a human to believe in him. When people do not believe in God, God simply has not placed belief in them as of yet, those who do believe, its not of themselves, not of their own will making decision, its that God has led them to believe, and he didnot ask them their permission.
Peace.