The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering.

[AK4]

Context/ background at Job [2:10] is that from the previous verses we can discern that Job jumped to the wrong conclusion as to who was behind the evil or calamity that was befalling him. Please see verse 7.

If anything from the context then, since you will like to use the god of context, you would notice that satan could not do anything without permission from God thus making Jobs' statement still true. And its not calamity, its evil, the same word used for evil {ra] OVER 600 TIMES in the OT but only gets changed by those who dont want to accept the sovereignty of God and wants to promote satan and the their fabled freewill.

This is not to say that Isaiah [45:7] is wrong.
In Scripture evil is used in connection with calamity.
Calamity [evil] was used in order to protect the righteous, and once again will be used in behalf of the righteous of Matthew [25:37]. Jesus words will be an evil for the ones that are not placed at Jesus right hand of favor, so to speak.
Matthew 25:46; 2 Thess 1:9; Isaiah 11:4; Rev. 19:15.

:thud:

 

[Beta]

The reason I am out in the cold, is because God wants me there. I live and move and have my being from him alone, no matter who accepts that or fails to understand it. This is the viewpoint from which God wants me to learn. And I submit to it , and I learn and grow in knowledge each passing day. I am not on the unbelievers side, I believe in God, I am not on the Christian side, I disagree with their understanding. Who's side am I on, I have continually shared that I walk alone, I take no sides.

I quote scriptures because I believe in them with all my heart, I bear witness that I do not know God, because I honestly don't. I reveal that he has never spoken to me, because he has not. Why you have problems understanding these, is of no intrest to me. I live in honesty, and will never lie about my dealings with God, thats something God does not want for me, he wants me to be for real, brutally honest about things. Espically my own condition.

I don't like being in this " Box", but I know and understand that one day God will release me, just not today. Christians prejudge people far before their time, if people do not now believe, Christians think thats it for them, its over, they are doomed. Christians are seriously mistaken, thinking now is the only day of Salvation.

You view me as difficult to converse with, I view Christians the same, normally they do not labor with me long, because they sense I do not like their understanding, which I truly do not.

I don't like believers who limit the Salvation of God.

Peace.

Whether you know it or not YOU ARE TAKING SIDES my friend - YOUR OWN.! Saying you walk alone puts you there. Since you quote and believe scripture should that not put you on GOD's side ??? When you read his Word he is speaking to you !
Why are you so set against Believing God and against Repentance ? These are the very things that will bring you in from the cold. You are far too knowledgable of scripture for God to keep you shut out. It's more like you are not doing what he expects of you so keeping yourself out.
Btw, I am not a traditional christian with all their manmade Beliefs and traditions not to be found in the Word of God - so we may have something in common after all .
You are right, this is not the only day of salvation but it could be for you if you give up your stubborness and repent of it. Why don't you read Ps.51 for a softening of your heart. :yes:

 

[mickiel]

Whether you know it or not YOU ARE TAKING SIDES my friend - YOUR OWN.! Saying you walk alone puts you there. Since you quote and believe scripture should that not put you on GOD's side ??? When you read his Word he is speaking to you !

Reading Gods word does not mean he is speaking to you, its the most read book in the history of humanity, and I seriously disagree with anyone who states that God has spoken to all the people who have read it.

Now I would agree that IF the Spirit of God is either with, or in a human, then reading the bible is a way of God communicating his message to them through the understanding of his written word, that is indeed possible, but even that is NOT verbal communication, it only would be understanding of things written.

I also disagree with the " Implication that God has " A Side." As if one could be on Gods side, or the other side, I disagree with that entirely.

There is Gods way, and nothingelse. There is Gods will, verses nothing! There is nothing that really opposes God, nothing that is a challange or threat to him. Thats another reason I don't believe in human free will. There exist what God wants and desires, and there exist nothingelse to stop or hinder that.

Job found this out in Job 42:2;" I know that you can do all things, and no purpose of yours can be stopped."

There is Gods will, or you can say Gods side, and then there is nothingelse.

Peace.

 

[Beta]

Reading Gods word does not mean he is speaking to you, its the most read book in the history of humanity, and I seriously disagree with anyone who states that God has spoken to all the people who have read it.

Now I would agree that IF the Spirit of God is either with, or in a human, then reading the bible is a way of God communicating his message to them through the understanding of his written word, that is indeed possible, but even that is NOT verbal communication, it only would be understanding of things written.

I also disagree with the " Implication that God has " A Side." As if one could be on Gods side, or the other side, I disagree with that entirely.

There is Gods way, and nothingelse. There is Gods will, verses nothing! There is nothing that really opposes God, nothing that is a challange or threat to him. Thats another reason I don't believe in human free will. There exist what God wants and desires, and there exist nothingelse to stop or hinder that.

Job found this out in Job 42:2;" I know that you can do all things, and no purpose of yours can be stopped."

There is Gods will, or you can say Gods side, and then there is nothingelse.

Peace.

The Word of God is there for all to read , some understand and take note while others reject and ignore it. Of course God does not speak audibly but what is wrong with the ' WRITTEN WORD ' ?? If you get a letter from a friend or relative you don't dismiss it because he is not verbally speaking ?? Sometimes the written word is legally required above the spoken word which people can forget or misinterpret the meaning of - so the written word is always there to refer to.
The HS of God is mightily misunderstood today, everybody who fancies it thinks he has got it when scripture actually says it is only given to the OBEDIENT.
Did not Jesus say : he who is not with him is against him ? That sounds like taking sides to me ! As you say yourself there is only God's side or nothing - so why have you got so many opinions that don't matter to God ? (so you say). If nothing you think, say or do matters to God why do you bother with anything ???

 

[mahmoud mrt]

hell is not a place for eternal punishment, it is a place for long time punishment , not eternal, in my opinion

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/1953718-post6.html


Regards,
mahmoud

 

[Diederick]

As with anything concerning Christianity, this is not something everyone is going to agree upon. People are so widespread on what they should be believing that the original 'church' of Christ has fallen apart into over 33.000 different denominations. Basically disagreeing on everything there can be any debate about, from the literal or figurative interpretation of the Bible to the actual role of God.

Religion isn't just a book. Religion is people and most of all it is the culture people create alongside the teaching of other humans and whatever scripture is available which is regarded as somewhat divinely inspired. Culture is the main ingredient of religion. If we move to the USA and float around there for a bit, we'll get the impression from the people there that hell is a place of eternal pain as a form of punishment (Mat.25:46). If we move elsewhere, people will argue that this is a mistranslation into the word 'eternal', which should have been 'for ages upon ages'.

People can interpret the Bible in many ways, and because the translators were also humans, there must have slipped in some personal bias or 'interpretation' if you find that more comfortable. This makes being a Christian a very complicated matter if you'd ask me, and that's not even beginning to consider the actual faith thing.

In the end, people can choose what to believe or believe in whatever they were brought up in. It is no secret that people brought up in India are more likely to become Hindu than Christian, the opposite is true for America. There are so many religions to choose from, from the Westboro Baptist Church in Topeka Kansas USA, to the A of BC in Luzon Visayas Mindanao Phillipines, to the Zulu Jerusalem Church in South Africa. All this diversity brings me to the point where I'd say that religion is a personal thing, people believe what they wish to believe (if they are not indoctrinated) and because the Bible is so flexible, that means any debate on any Christian matter is quite futile.

Concluding: There are those who choose to believe in an eternal hell, and there are those that choose not to believe in hell at all.

 

[mickiel]

hell is not a place for eternal punishment, it is a place for long time punishment , not eternal, in my opinion

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/1953718-post6.html


Regards,
mahmoud

Hell is not a place, its a biblical confusion and misunderstanding. People are confusing this hell, to be the Lake of Fire. There is, or will be a Lake of Fire, but that Lake is not a " Hell."

And I want to go into an examination of this Lake of Fire.

Peace.

 

[mickiel]

Hell is not a place, its a biblical confusion and misunderstanding. People are confusing this hell, to be the Lake of Fire. There is, or will be a Lake of Fire, but that Lake is not a " Hell."

And I want to go into an examination of this Lake of Fire.

Peace.

I think the Lake of Fire will be real, I am not sure if God has already created it as of now. But the bible is clear, in that this Lake was created specifically for the Devil and his angels, Matthews 25:41. Not for humans, we are not the reason for its creation. But the believers in hell, NEED a fire for their belief, so they have usurped this Lake of Fire, to be their coveted hell fire.

And I want to go into the error of that.

Peace.

 

[mickiel]

I think the Lake of Fire will be real, I am not sure if God has already created it as of now. But the bible is clear, in that this Lake was created specifically for the Devil and his angels, Matthews 25:41. Not for humans, we are not the reason for its creation. But the believers in hell, NEED a fire for their belief, so they have usurped this Lake of Fire, to be their coveted hell fire.

And I want to go into the error of that.

Peace.

Will humans believe in things that are wrong? Of course we will, its within our nature. The Klu klux Klan believes they are right, but they are not. In their minds, being White means being superior. And they are not going to come off of that error in belief. It gives them too much pride, too much confidence, too much power. The Atheist is simular, their unbelief gives them too much individuality, too much attention, too much of a pride of going against the grain. Christians are very simular, their hell fire belief gives them too much personal gradification of themselves being so righteous, as to escape this fire, that they cannot give up that persona.

That prideful persona is what created this hell fire doctrine, the pride of Christianity.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

1)The "lake of fire" is an invention of a man that was high on mushrooms...
2)As for Satan and his angels, wouldn't it be a lot easier for an all-powerful god to just destroy them and be done with it? What is the reasoning behind keeping him around for a battle he's going to lose anyway?
3) The story of Job just shows how cold-hearted your god can be. It's no different than if I said, "let me beat your dog over and over again to see if he'll still eat out of your hand." Would you really let me do that just to prove a point? It sounds really arrogant to me

 

[mickiel]

1)The "lake of fire" is an invention of a man that was high on mushrooms...
2)As for Satan and his angels, wouldn't it be a lot easier for an all-powerful god to just destroy them and be done with it? What is the reasoning behind keeping him around for a battle he's going to lose anyway?
3) The story of Job just shows how cold-hearted your god can be. It's no different than if I said, "let me beat your dog over and over again to see if he'll still eat out of your hand." Would you really let me do that just to prove a point? It sounds really arrogant to me

The Lake of fire is not an invention of your sarcasim, and satan is being kept around for purposes that will ultimately be benefical to all of humanity, you simply lack understanding of why God does things.

And yes, God can be coldhearted, and more. He is coldhearted toward evil and sin, absolutely coldhearted, showing it no mercy at all in his plans to totally wipe them out of existence.

When God does not wipe things out of existence at any given time, its because those things are pertinent to his plans for humanity.

Peace.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

The Lake of fire is not an invention of your sarcasim, and satan is being kept around for purposes that will ultimately be benefical to all of humanity, you simply lack understanding of why God does things.

And yes, God can be coldhearted, and more. He is coldhearted toward evil and sin, absolutely coldhearted, showing it no mercy at all in his plans to totally wipe them out of existence.

When God does not wipe things out of existence at any given time, its because those things are pertinent to his plans for humanity.

Peace.

1)Sorry to tell you, the book of Revelations was written by John of Patmos. The island of Patmos has an abundance of psilocybin mushrooms on it. Anyone that's ever done shrooms can tell you the book of Revelations definitely sounds like a good trip
2)What was Job doing that was so "evil and sinful" that he deserved to be tested with torture?
3) So in your opinion it's God's plan to have people misled by Satan and punished by God for it, even though he knowingly kept the evil around?

 

[mickiel]

1)Sorry to tell you, the book of Revelations was written by John of Patmos. The island of Patmos has an abundance of psilocybin mushrooms on it. Anyone that's ever done shrooms can tell you the book of Revelations definitely sounds like a good tripquote

I hold no intrest in human sarcasm and juvinile speculation.

quote
2)What was Job doing that was so "evil and sinful" that he deserved to be tested with torture?quote

Nothing, he did absolutely nothing to deserve it. Just as all of humanity has done nothing to " Deserve suffering", thats why I know we all are destined to be with God.

quote
3) So in your opinion it's God's plan to have people misled by Satan and punished by God for it, even though he knowingly kept the evil around?

I have never in my life said such a misleading thing. Its Gods plan to have people misled by satan, but he willNOT punish them for that deception, God is not a maniac.

Peace.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

I have never in my life said such a misleading thing. Its Gods plan to have people misled by satan, but he willNOT punish them for that deception, God is not a maniac.

Peace.

Then why would he allow Satan to constantly torture Job to prove a point that would effectively do nothing but add to God's ego? What purpose could you possibly find for that story besides the arrogance of your god?

 

[mickiel]

Then why would he allow Satan to constantly torture Job to prove a point that would effectively do nothing but add to God's ego? What purpose could you possibly find for that story besides the arrogance of your god?

Well it shows that God has an ego, but its not human ego, its far different. He created Job and Satan, and I think one thing the story shows is that God will put a human up against this satan, because God basically goaded Satan into doing that. He " Dared Satan", in a sense, to go after Job, and Job passed this dare. In that sense, it was an elevation of a humans belief and faith in God, Gods ultimate confidence in that human, and both Gods ego and Jobs were rewarded.

I see arrogance in the story, Gods arrogance toward Satan is where I see his Arrogance. It defintely was there to see, only I see it differently than you.

Peace.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

How was Job rewarded? The man lost his entire family, everything he owned, and contracted a disease. I wouldn't see the destruction of my entire life because of a dare as any kind of reward from God.

 

[mickiel]

How was Job rewarded? The man lost his entire family, everything he owned, and contracted a disease. I wouldn't see the destruction of my entire life because of a dare as any kind of reward from God.

Well the answer is in Job 42:12-13, God blessed him more in his latter days than his first days. Gave him 14,000 sheep, 6,000 Camels, 1,000 Oxen and 1,000 female Donkeys, 7 more sons and 3 more daughters. Although his first lost was terrible and you see no reward in what happened, Job himself was not like you, he honored what God did, and lived 140 more years after that, more life than you or I will live in this flesh. He died a very rich man, and it was said no other women on earth were as bueatiful as his girls.

Peace.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

And what of the family that Job lost? Is a human life so expendable that you can say, "It's OK, he got another one."? Whether he became rich or not, there's no telling what kind of mental scars were left on Job after going through what he did. How can you be so sure that Job enjoyed his new life after the trauma of how he lost his old one? I just can't see any kind of loving or generosity in God after reading this story.

 

[mickiel]

And what of the family that Job lost? Is a human life so expendable that you can say, "It's OK, he got another one."? Whether he became rich or not, there's no telling what kind of mental scars were left on Job after going through what he did. How can you be so sure that Job enjoyed his new life after the trauma of how he lost his old one? I just can't see any kind of loving or generosity in God after reading this story.

Job answers that himself in Job 42:1-6, he died complettely content with God. However I agree that he had to have mental scars as well, I agree with that. Yet I see a God in this story who is very profound, very in control, very generous, very demanding of certain humans, very arrogant toward Satan, and very astute in his position of being on top. And very capable of allowing his creations to be killed.

God is all of that, and more.

Peace.

 

[mickiel]

God is all of that, and more.

Peace.

God is Love, the best reason why no humans will suffer for an Eternity.

God is Perfect Joy, the best reason why he would never co-exist with eternal misery in humans.

God is Peace, the best reason why he wouldnot create a hell of constant pain enhancement for humans.

God is Patient, the best reason why there is nothing any human can do during their appointed years of living that he wouldnot suffer long with them, holding their future in mind.

God is Kind, the best reason he will always forgive you, the amount of times is meaningless to him. Forgiveness is eternal with God!

God is Good, eternal hell is not. There is no stain in Gods plans for our future. The hell concept is a serious stain, nothing Good about it.

God is Faithful, he has Promised to give us all Salvation free of charge,if there was a hell, it would cost far too many human lives.

God is Gentle, Hell is insane.

God is Self Control, a creation of eternal suffering, is absolutely no sign of self Control in a God.

Peace.