The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering.

[mickiel]

IMO you are no longer trying to convince others of your "opinion", you are trying to convince yourself.

Well I agree with this, I try everyday, over and over again to convince myself of what I believe. And I need that convincing, I want to be totally sure of it.

Peace.

 

[mickiel]

Would someone please put this thread out of it's misery.

One of the personal experiences that I have oftened had in debating and sharing while posting threads on the internet, is that on occasion a thread seems to take a life of its own. Its goes beyond you, and just takes off as the people show they want to share their intrest. Its nothing that you did, it just swells and grows as people pump it full of their frustrations, their views, their fears.

Its a great learning experience that can envoke unity, communication, education,debate and envy as well.

And this is one of the things I enjoy about the internet, because I have many of these " Monster threads" all over the internet.

What they say to me most of all, is that people are thirsty for " Something", they don't know what, but something. These threads can be a mirror into the mind of man.

And I appriciate them and the forums that allow them.

Peace.

 

[Danmac]

Well I agree with this, I try everyday, over and over again to convince myself of what I believe. And I need that convincing, I want to be totally sure of it.

Peace.

That is admirable. Can I ask you this though? Because it is appalling to you could it be that you don't want to consider the other side of the argument?

 

[Danmac]

One of the personal experiences that I have oftened had in debating and sharing while posting threads on the internet, is that on occasion a thread seems to take a life of its own. Its goes beyond you, and just takes off as the people show they want to share their intrest. Its nothing that you did, it just swells and grows as people pump it full of their frustrations, their views, their fears.

Its a great learning experience that can envoke unity, communication, education,debate and envy as well.

And this is one of the things I enjoy about the internet, because I have many of these " Monster threads" all over the internet.

What they say to me most of all, is that people are thirsty for " Something", they don't know what, but something. These threads can be a mirror into the mind of man.

And I appriciate them and the forums that allow them.

Peace.

Could it be that people want to believe what you are suggesting in order to relieve what they subconsciously believe to be true?

 

[mickiel]

That is admirable. Can I ask you this though? Because it is appalling to you could it be that you don't want to consider the other side of the argument?

Well don't be too presumptious in your question, I have considered all sides of the issue, and continue to consider them. I need to keep doing that, and what I keep doing is moving toward what is the strongest arguement that I can understand.

And will forever remain open to any other view that I think bears merit.

Peace.

 

[mickiel]

Could it be that people want to believe what you are suggesting in order to relieve what they subconsciously believe to be true?

Well yes, I am sure some people are doing that, and I can certainly understand doing it. They want relief, because something is pressuring them. Hurting them, instilling fear into them.

But we cannot change the truth, only pacify ourselves with things other than the truth.

But I believe in what I am saying with a lot of my heart, and one day, I hope the whole heart.

Peace.

 

[Misty]

Well yes, I am sure some people are doing that, and I can certainly understand doing it. They want relief, because something is pressuring them. Hurting them, instilling fear into them.

But we cannot change the truth, only pacify ourselves with things other than the truth.

But I believe in what I am saying with a lot of my heart, and one day, I hope the whole heart.

Peace.

We might not be able to change the truth if such exists, but I doubt any of us have that elusive commodity, however much we believe we do.

 

[Danmac]

Well yes, I am sure some people are doing that, and I can certainly understand doing it. They want relief, because something is pressuring them. Hurting them, instilling fear into them.

But we cannot change the truth, only pacify ourselves with things other than the truth.

But I believe in what I am saying with a lot of my heart, and one day, I hope the whole heart.

Peace.

I do believe that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. But I also believe that we must request our part of that payment, before it can be applied. I believe the bible confirms this.

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 ¶ For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

I also believe that we can reject that payment and be damned as a result.

Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

 

[Misty]

I do believe that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. But I also believe that we must request our part of that payment, before it can be applied. I believe the bible confirms this.

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 ¶ For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

I also believe that we can reject that payment and be damned as a result.

Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

What an unpleasant concept in which you believe!

 

[mickiel]

I do believe that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. But I also believe that we must request our part of that payment, before it can be applied. I believe the bible confirms this.

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 ¶ For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

I also believe that we can reject that payment and be damned as a result.

Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Well I understand that you believe that we are responsible for " Part of the payment of our sins". After all, we are the ones who committed the sins, in your reasonings, why should we then not be at least partly responsible in the repayment of them? And I understand that, it is " Human reasoning." Its the human way to be held accountable.

Permit me to show my view of scripture, I will stay in Romans with you, chapter 5:18;" So then as through one sin there resulted condemnation to " All men", even so through " One act of Righteousness", there RESULTED justification of Life to " All men."

You see, what I see here, is the death of Christ relieving all humans from their part in having to pay for their sins. Because Jesus was crucified, well then we don't have to be crucified. Now thats the amazing grace the bible speaks of, we are " Pardoned from our part in payment." But now, that just does not seem fair to some religions, its " Too much Grace", so they develop doctrines where humans STILL MUST PAY! They can't get off that easy, so they are attracted to scriptures which match this way of thinking.

And I mean, thats all we can do, is be attracted to what we believe. What confuses many, is the bible seems to support both views. And that can be frustrating for sure.

In vs 20 it states ;" Where sin increased, Grace abounded( Or Grew to conversely cover) all the more. I see the forgiveness of sin there, not a mathematical part that we must pay in our sins. But a mathamatical increase of the canceling out of our part to pay.

Peace.

 

[waitasec]

What an unpleasant concept in which you believe!

the concept of fear
fear of eventual death, darkness, solitary....kind of like sleeping, for me...

fear is the foundation of the need to believe there is salvation...from what exactly
i don't know, unforgiveness, perhaps

 

[Danmac]

What an unpleasant concept in which you believe!

I never said it was unpleasant, you did. Maybe it is still unpleasant for you.

 

[Misty]

I never said it was unpleasant, you did. Maybe it is still unpleasant for you.

Did I say you said it was unpleasant?

 

[Danmac]

Well I understand that you believe that we are responsible for " Part of the payment of our sins". After all, we are the ones who committed the sins, in your reasonings, why should we then not be at least partly responsible in the repayment of them? And I understand that, it is " Human reasoning." Its the human way to be held accountable.

Permit me to show my view of scripture, I will stay in Romans with you, chapter 5:18;" So then as through one sin there resulted condemnation to " All men", even so through " One act of Righteousness", there RESULTED justification of Life to " All men."

You see, what I see here, is the death of Christ relieving all humans from their part in having to pay for their sins. Because Jesus was crucified, well then we don't have to be crucified. Now thats the amazing grace the bible speaks of, we are " Pardoned from our part in payment." But now, that just does not seem fair to some religions, its " Too much Grace", so they develop doctrines where humans STILL MUST PAY! They can't get off that easy, so they are attracted to scriptures which match this way of thinking.

And I mean, thats all we can do, is be attracted to what we believe. What confuses many, is the bible seems to support both views. And that can be frustrating for sure.

In vs 20 it states ;" Where sin increased, Grace abounded( Or Grew to conversely cover) all the more. I see the forgiveness of sin there, not a mathematical part that we must pay in our sins. But a mathamatical increase of the canceling out of our part to pay.

The need to do something to merit heaven is weaved into the fabric of our being. However, I agree with you that there is nothing we can do to please God. Jesus did everything for us. There are many that reject Jesus though. There are many verses that tell us that there are consequences for rejecting Jesus.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

John3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John8:21 ¶ Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[mickiel]

Well here again, we just have conflicting views, and thats just how things will be. We have to raise our own children, and we have to feed our own views of life. The view of God is a difficult view, and it will partly be based on what kind of diet you have given your consciousness prior to your inquiry. Experience is the human diet which keeps people on a certain thought line, if they willnot go beyond experience, then they stay in that groove they are accustomed to.

The study of God has to go " One step beyond." We have to get in the water, but we still just can't stand there, as one poster put it, we need to swim. To move on, unless we stagnate and go back to comfort zones. I remember a show on television long ago, entitled " One Step Beyond", simular to the twilight zone, it was always going into the paranormal and " Otherworldly."

Well a study in God will be like that, God is not " Normal and easy to understand." Hes out there, way out there, much farther than one step beyond. But we have to, like a baby, take those first steps beyond. We have to come out of religion, out of tradition, out of ourselves and go beyond.

Thats where the beginning of understanding God is, one step beyond.

Peace.

 

[Danmac]

Well here again, we just have conflicting views, and thats just how things will be. We have to raise our own children, and we have to feed our own views of life. The view of God is a difficult view, and it will partly be based on what kind of diet you have given your consciousness prior to your inquiry. Experience is the human diet which keeps people on a certain thought line, if they willnot go beyond experience, then they stay in that groove they are accustomed to.

The study of God has to go " One step beyond." We have to get in the water, but we still just can't stand there, as one poster put it, we need to swim. To move on, unless we stagnate and go back to comfort zones. I remember a show on television long ago, entitled " One Step Beyond", simular to the twilight zone, it was always going into the paranormal and " Otherworldly."

Well a study in God will be like that, God is not " Normal and easy to understand." Hes out there, way out there, much farther than one step beyond. But we have to, like a baby, take those first steps beyond. We have to come out of religion, out of tradition, out of ourselves and go beyond.

Thats where the beginning of understanding God is, one step beyond.

Peace.

I agree that all of us have presuppositions. I believe the important thing is that when logic challenges what we believe, we can either proudly ignore it, or humbly consider it. There are times when my beliefs are challenged. It is at that point that I challenge myself to consider the other side. I believe this is the key to discovery.

 

[mickiel]

The need to do something to merit heaven is weaved into the fabric of our being. However, I agree with you that there is nothing we can do to please God. Jesus did everything for us. There are many that reject Jesus though. There are many verses that tell us that there are consequences for rejecting Jesus.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

John3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John8:21 ¶ Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Well as I have said, the bible seems to support both views. In example, you can give a list of scriptures that show condemnation. The scriptures are there. I can give this list;
John 1:29, the Lamb of God takes away the sins " Of the WORLD". Not just believers sins, but unbelievers as well. The sins are gone, does now the bible contridict itself and bring some of those sins back in order to condemn others?

1Tim. 2:6, Jesus gave himself as a ransom for ALL!
1John 2:2;" Jesus is the propitiation for our sins ( our meaning believers) and not just ours, but the whole world as well! Propitiation means that he renders judgement in our favor.

1John 4:14 Jesus was sent to be the savior of " The WORLD!" His God sent mission is to save a whole World, NOT just individual obedient believers.

And I can continue the list, the bible is slap full of such scriptures. But you get the point. It falls to which ones suit your taste. I have a taste for the total rehabilitation of all of mankind, and I see that in scripture.

Peace.

 

[Danmac]

Well as I have said, the bible seems to support both views. In example, you can give a list of scriptures that show condemnation. The scriptures are there. I can give this list;
John 1:29, the Lamb of God takes away the sins " Of the WORLD". Not just believers sins, but unbelievers as well. The sins are gone, does now the bible contridict itself and bring some of those sins back in order to condemn others?

1Tim. 2:6, Jesus gave himself as a ransom for ALL!
1John 2:2;" Jesus is the propitiation for our sins ( our meaning believers) and not just ours, but the whole world as well! Propitiation means that he renders judgement in our favor.

1John 4:14 Jesus was sent to be the savior of " The WORLD!" His God sent mission is to save a whole World, NOT just individual obedient believers.

And I can continue the list, the bible is slap full of such scriptures. But you get the point. It falls to which ones suit your taste. I have a taste for the total rehabilitation of all of mankind, and I see that in scripture.

Peace.

Why do we need to be born again?

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

 

[Misty]

Why do we need to be born again?

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

What did Jesus know? No more than anyone else I reckon!

 

[Danmac]

What did Jesus know? No more than anyone else I reckon!

He knew enough to be the most controversial person that ever live.