The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering.

[AK4]

Rev 20: 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

This lake of fire is the spiritual fire which im talking about. It the fire which will destroy hell and all its inhabitants.

If the earth is destroyed, there is nowhere for the spirits in this world to go. There isnt another home for them. If earth is destroyed so will those that remain on/in it. The destruction is final. They wont resurrect again. There isnt a hell suffering in the future. After this earth is gone, so is hell.

Heneni

Okay let me put it this way because when you keep using hell its confusing you. They (theologians and the church) have changed the meaning of the word hell.

TWO DEFINITIONS OF HELL​

First the “hell” of four centuries ago:​

Webster’s Twentieth Century Dictionary:​

“hell, n. [ME, helle; AS, hell, hell, from helan, to cover, conceal.]”
​

Second the “hell” of the 21st Century:

The American Heritage Collegiate Dictionary:​

“The abode of condemned souls and devils... the place of eternal punishment for the wicked after death, presided over by Satan… a state of separation from God… a place of evil, misery, discord, or destruction… torment, anguish.”
​

So hell used to only mean to conceal and hide. In todays world its being used for grave, pit, sheol and hades.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - She·ol

–noun (in Hebrew theology) 1.the abode of the dead or of departed spirits. 2.(lowercase

) hell.



American Heritage Dictionary She·ol
n. The abode of the dead in the Bible.
[Hebrew šə'ôl.]

Strongs concordance
hadēs
hah'-dace
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1492; properly unseen, that is, "Hades" or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave, hell.

One more definition—the word “grave:

American Heritage Collage Dictionary:​

“grave 1. An excavaion for the internment of a corpse. b. A place of burial."
​

Remember that the Hebrew word sheol and the Greek word hades are both translated into the two English words “hell” and “grave.” Are you following this? The Hebrew word sheol is translated “hell” 31 times and is also translated “grave” 31 times—the SAME Hebrew word.
But are “hell” and “grave” the SAME word? NO. Do they both have the same meaning? NO. Then WHY are they both the translation of the ONE Hebrew word sheol?




So if you are saying hell is on earth--is this the world of the dead? (well spiritually dead yes) Physically no. So this cant be Gods way of making a hell.

There is no death or dying in the future. If there is no dying then theres no "hell" as in the realm of the dead. It has nothing to do with suffering because in the world of the dead, "hell", there is---

Ec 9:10 - .... no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave (hey they translated sheol grave here, why not hell or pit or gehenna or tartarus), whither thou goest.
So there is proof that this is not "hell on earth"

I forgot my main point-- i did that one thing to you again

 

[Heneni]

“hell, n. [ME, helle; AS, hell, hell, from helan, to cover, conceal.]”

Hell is covered up by the garment of earth.</B>​

Second the &#8220;hell&#8221; of the 21st Century:​

The American Heritage Collegiate Dictionary: ​

&#8220;The abode of condemned souls and devils... the place of eternal punishment for the wicked after death, presided over by Satan&#8230; a state of separation from God&#8230; a place of evil, misery, discord, or destruction&#8230; torment, anguish.&#8221;
​

Sound like earth​

So hell used to only mean to conceal and hide. In todays world its being used for grave, pit, sheol and hades.​

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - She·ol

&#8211;noun (in Hebrew theology) 1.the abode of the dead or of departed spirits. 2.(lowercase

) hell.​

Jesus said, let the dead bury the dead. And the people he was talking about was living.​

grave 1. An excavaion for the internment of a corpse. b. A place of burial."​

Jesus also said to the hypocrites, they are dead mans bones inside. And white washed tombs.​

 

[blackout]

hell is the state of being concealed
from one's true self and higher nature.

People who are not Living Alive to their true Self
are the walking dead.
Walking ... "living" out a script... instead of a REAL Life.

You either live by the rule of (world&church) "authorities"
or
You take back your birthright, and author(ity) your own life.

 

[want to be hindu]

Jesus said he came to start a fire...i dont see fire either, so where is it? Its the purifying fire of god. And where else is there fire...in hell.

Heneni

Frubals to you:clap Whats the opposite of HELL ? Let us look at what Jesus said in the bible. The kingdom of God is at hand. Heaven is in the here and now. Paul said even now he is at the right hand side of God. It is all about our lives now. We dont need to die to be in hell.


:seesaw:

 

[SpiritualBeing]

I have been away on a religious break for a month, and I've had a massive chance to rethink my religion.

I don't believe in hell anymore, I believe that there are different levels of heaven, within the Great Spirits "mansion" for want of a better word.

I believe that you will be placed in a house within the Great Spirits mansion depending upon the purity of your soul. A bit like going up in an elevator. There are buttons for each different floor, and I believe that you are put into a floor depending upon your spirituality.

I also believe that you are given the choice of reincarnation, but you don't need to choose it if you don't want to.

 

[AK4]

I also believe that you are given the choice of reincarnation, but you don't need to choose it if you don't want to.

Come now. Thats like saying you had a choice in being born. You had no choice then and no one will have the choice afterwards because Everyone has some kind of purpose in Gods Plan. Free will is just an illusion. So God will convince everyone to follow His ways that it will seem like it was their "free will" that they chose Him.

 

[Heneni]

Come now. Thats like saying you had a choice in being born. You had no choice then and no one will have the choice afterwards because Everyone has some kind of purpose in Gods Plan. Free will is just an illusion. So God will convince everyone to follow His ways that it will seem like it was their "free will" that they chose Him.

If god has to convince everyone then it means they have the ability to think otherwise. Which means they have free will.

 

[AK4]

If god has to convince everyone then it means they have the ability to think otherwise. Which means they have free will.

Whats the definition of free??????? Can anyone anywhere do anything absolutely free from anything rather past present or future? Did you freely comment on my comment or did something i say CAUSE you to respond? Did you have the ability not to respond? Yes, but would there have been a CAUSE for you not to? Even if you just didnt want to? Think about it. Think about why you would or wouldnt have---I bet you there is a CAUSE. Now how will God cause everyone to abide by His Will eventually--I dont know the specifics, but it will happen. Everyone will---

Isa 45:23 - By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear.
Ro 14:11 - It is written: "'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'"
Now can someone go against God and refuse with their "almighty free will" and tell God "no you cant make me" "no there is nothing you can do, God, that will cause me to bow to you, my will is stronger than Yours and You wont force/inspire/cause/make (etc etc) me to bow to you and love you". Come on now":slap:.

Where is anyones free will to choose otherwise.

 

[Heneni]

Free will has boundaries. You can choose to pick up the newspaper, though you cant choose to lift off from the ground and go flying through the air.

But free will is not the subject of this thread. Wandered off started a good thread on it. You might want to check it out

Heneni.

 

[Heneni]

Whats the definition of free??????? Can anyone anywhere do anything absolutely free from anything rather past present or future? Did you freely comment on my comment or did something i say CAUSE you to respond? Did you have the ability not to respond? Yes, but would there have been a CAUSE for you not to? Even if you just didnt want to? Think about it. Think about why you would or wouldnt have---I bet you there is a CAUSE. Now how will God cause everyone to abide by His Will eventually--I dont know the specifics, but it will happen. Everyone will---

Isa 45:23 - By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear.
Ro 14:11 - It is written: "'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'"
Now can someone go against God and refuse with their "almighty free will" and tell God "no you cant make me" "no there is nothing you can do, God, that will cause me to bow to you, my will is stronger than Yours and You wont force/inspire/cause/make (etc etc) me to bow to you and love you". Come on now":slap:.

Where is anyones free will to choose otherwise.

'I put before you life and death CHOOSE life'

Heneni

 

[AK4]

Free will has boundaries. You can choose to pick up the newspaper, though you cant choose to lift off from the ground and go flying through the air.

But free will is not the subject of this thread. Wandered off started a good thread on it. You might want to check it out

Heneni.

Free will has boundaries--This a contradictory statement---free/boundaries. I know you can see that.

No its not the true topic of this thread, but some believe with their free will they can choose heaven or hell or total anihilation--we cant freely choose any. God has made the choice for us and we have no say it. And it shows how much of a Loving God He is because as the title suggests--its a sick concept that God would even let someone choose "hell" or annihilation.

It is my opinion and mine alone that the strong delusion that God sent to us is the whole illusion of free will--You take away this you wouldnt have all the religions, crime, people thinking up sick concepts of hell or annihilation etc etc etc--Without it you have what---Paradise. God has made it that none of us can choose. He made the decision that all will corrected and perfect. Now He could of chose the opposite, but then He would be the opposite of His nature, which is Love.

 

[Heneni]

It is my opinion and mine alone that the strong delusion that God sent to us is the whole illusion of free will--

Right there is the problem you see. God is not into sending delusions.

Jeremiah 14:14
14Then the LORD said to me, "The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds.

God does not delude our minds, delusion comes from our own minds.

 

[Heneni]

Free will has boundaries--This a contradictory statement---free/boundaries. I know you can see that.

No its not the true topic of this thread, but some believe with their free will they can choose heaven or hell or total anihilation--we cant freely choose any. God has made the choice for us and we have no say it. And it shows how much of a Loving God He is because as the title suggests--its a sick concept that God would even let someone choose "hell" or annihilation.

It is my opinion and mine alone that the strong delusion that God sent to us is the whole illusion of free will--You take away this you wouldnt have all the religions, crime, people thinking up sick concepts of hell or annihilation etc etc etc--Without it you have what---Paradise. God has made it that none of us can choose. He made the decision that all will corrected and perfect. Now He could of chose the opposite, but then He would be the opposite of His nature, which is Love.

Have you ever thought about the fact that some people are repelled by god and dont want to go to heaven? Will god drag them in there kicking and screaming and call it love too?

heneni

 

[AK4]

Have you ever thought about the fact that some people are repelled by god and dont want to go to heaven? Will god drag them in there kicking and screaming and call it love too?

heneni

I dont know. Could it be...


Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Now since the NT was written in greek what could that draw really me?...Could it be...


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Strong's Number: 1670[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Browse Lexicon[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Original Word[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Word Origin[/FONT]e&lkw[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]probably akin to (138)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Transliterated Word[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]TDNT Entry[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Helkuo[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]2:503,227[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Phonetic Spelling[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Parts of Speech[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]hel-koo'-o [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Verb [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Definition[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]

1. to draw, drag off
2. metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

I dont know. Will God drag people against their almighty "free" will to Him? Well?[/FONT]

 

[Imagist]

The bible says that hell will be destroyed and it says that earth will be destroyed and a new earth created. Ever wonder why both hell and earth will be destoyed. Isnt it obvious...its the same place.

Ever wonder why both France and Poland were occupied by Germany during World War II. Isnt it obvious...its the same place.

You can look back over this thread and you will see that I have made one argument for my point, while you have tried many different tactics to get to the same point, all of which have failed. Please think before posting. This latest post is obviously nonsensical. Just because the same thing happens to two different places doesn't mean they are the same place.

I put time and effort into my posts. Please do the same. It is obvious that you aren't considering whether your points make any sense before posting them. Also consider that you, as a human being, are capable of being wrong. Given that I have presented a clear argument for my ideas while you have presented 10+ logical fallacies, this is probably one of those cases.

Jesus said he came to start a fire...i dont see fire either, so where is it? Its the purifying fire of god. And where else is there fire...in hell.

This would only be true if Jesus were incapable of using fire as a metaphor. In context it is clear that the statement you mention is metaphorical, which is not true of the statements about the lake of fire in Revelation or other mentions of fire in hell.

God calls hell a place where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Compared to gods kingdom, this place hell. There is no peace, there is fighting, there are wars, sickness, decease, suffering, crime....all this is far different to heaven, so god is right when he calls hell a place where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, and people are already weeping and gnashing their teeth.

... but there is also peace, love, joy, friendship, etc. on earth. None of these pleasant things are mentioned in relation to hell.

Hell,(earth) doesnt seem so bad for people because like a frog, it will allow itself to be boiled to death as it adjusts to the temperature of the heating water. In the same way...we adapt to our environment, become more and more cold hearted, unresponsive to correction, unresponsive towards god and so this place feels comfortable when it should be the exact opposite. And if we are honest this is a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth.

No, if we are honest, it's possible to live a very enjoyable life here. I do not weep on a regular basis, and I have never in my life gnashed my teeth, nor do I feel the need to do so. I am quite happy.

If people are going to die and they are going to burn in hell, how then does a spiritual being feel fire? And how does it manage to survive being constantly burned? And what would could a natural fire really do to a spiritual being?

Clearly this is spiritual fire.

The purifying fire of god however, does not consume his children because he says they are made of metal. Fire removes the dross and impurities from metal, but it burns to ashes wood. And ashes is scattered in the wind. But metal is not.

So when ben says our spirits return to ashes, he is right...but that is not the fate of all the people on the earth.

Heneni

Do you actually have evidence for this or did you just completely make it up off the top of your head?

 

[Imagist]

Okay let me put it this way because when you keep using hell its confusing you. They (theologians and the church) have changed the meaning of the word hell.

TWO DEFINITIONS OF HELL​

First the “hell” of four centuries ago:​

Webster’s Twentieth Century Dictionary:​

“hell, n. [ME, helle; AS, hell, hell, from helan, to cover, conceal.]”
​

Second the “hell” of the 21st Century:

The American Heritage Collegiate Dictionary:​

“The abode of condemned souls and devils... the place of eternal punishment for the wicked after death, presided over by Satan… a state of separation from God… a place of evil, misery, discord, or destruction… torment, anguish.”
​

So hell used to only mean to conceal and hide. In todays world its being used for grave, pit, sheol and hades.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - She·ol

–noun (in Hebrew theology) 1.the abode of the dead or of departed spirits. 2.(lowercase

) hell.



American Heritage DictionaryShe·ol
n. The abode of the dead in the Bible.
[Hebrew š&#601;'ôl.]

Strongs concordance
hade&#772;s
hah'-dace
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1492; properly unseen, that is, "Hades" or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave, hell.

One more definition—the word “grave:

American Heritage Collage Dictionary:​

“grave 1. An excavaion for the internment of a corpse. b. A place of burial."
​

Remember that the Hebrew word sheol and the Greek word hades are both translated into the two English words “hell” and “grave.” Are you following this? The Hebrew word sheol is translated “hell” 31 times and is also translated “grave” 31 times—the SAME Hebrew word.
But are “hell” and “grave” the SAME word? NO. Do they both have the same meaning? NO. Then WHY are they both the translation of the ONE Hebrew word sheol?




So if you are saying hell is on earth--is this the world of the dead? (well spiritually dead yes) Physically no. So this cant be Gods way of making a hell.

There is no death or dying in the future. If there is no dying then theres no "hell" as in the realm of the dead. It has nothing to do with suffering because in the world of the dead, "hell", there is---

Ec 9:10 - .... no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave (hey they translated sheol grave here, why not hell or pit or gehenna or tartarus), whither thou goest.
So there is proof that this is not "hell on earth"

I forgot my main point-- i did that one thing to you again

This is just semantics. We are talking about the hell that has fire and suffering, not whatever other meanings hell has. Both fire and suffering are mentioned in the Bible, so this is the definition of hell being used in the bible.

If you don't like calling the place with fire and suffering "hell", I'll be happy to use whatever term you would like. For example, let's call it "fire-suffering place", or FSP for short. Now, my point remains the same:

1. The bible clearly states that God created humans, allowed them to do things that he didn't like, and will send them to FSP if they do those things.
2. FSP exacts eternal suffering upon its inhabitants, as also stated in the bible.
3. Therefore, if we assume that the bible is true, God is evil.

 

[AK4]

This is just semantics. We are talking about the hell that has fire and suffering, not whatever other meanings hell has. Both fire and suffering are mentioned in the Bible, so this is the definition of hell being used in the bible.

If you don't like calling the place with fire and suffering "hell", I'll be happy to use whatever term you would like. For example, let's call it "fire-suffering place", or FSP for short. Now, my point remains the same:

1. The bible clearly states that God created humans, allowed them to do things that he didn't like, and will send them to FSP if they do those things.
2. FSP exacts eternal suffering upon its inhabitants, as also stated in the bible.
3. Therefore, if we assume that the bible is true, God is evil.

Now i will go out on limb here because the stereotype is that atheists are smart people and they know how to research and such and such. Do a word study on hades, eternal, destruction, lost, destroyed. Then this FSP, hell, total annihilation or whatever people want to call it will dissapear and see how utterly ridiculous you sound in believing in such a place. See how your wisdom is foolishness.

1Co 1:20 - Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
1Co 1:25 - For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

I will do one for you--(well i didnt do it but a friend sent an email to someone who also believed in the ridiculous notion of hell) and you may see how biblically, eternal is not scriptural

(see next post)

 

[AK4]

Dear Doctor B:

In an earlier e-mail you told me that I couldn't prove ANYTHING from the word "aion" because it was not in the original, but was inserted LATER. Now you keep using the word "aion" to defend YOUR theory of eternal torment. I don't think you know which side of this word you are on, Doctor!
Besides I have already asked you a half dozen times what was the Greek word that was replaced without authorization for the word "aion" and you have yet to answer. I don't think you can answer! Besides, do you have any idea of the impossibility of tampering with between five and ten THOUSAND Greek manuscripts that have been located to date?

I never got my definition out of Webster's Dictionary. Why do you say such things? Usage defines a word. And here is how God, in His very WORD, defines and uses the words "aion" and "aionios." And who ever said it means a "few day?" Your sarcasm is deceitful, Doctor.

First let me show you that even Dr. Strong defines "aion"two DIFFERENT ways:​

1. Strong's Greek Dictionary, p. 9, #165 aion, age, course, eternal, ever, evermore, without end.
   
   BUT, notice this from Strong's SAME Greek dictionary:​
2. Strong's Greek Dictionary, p. 78, #5550 chronos, a space of time (in general, and thus properly distinguished from 2540, which designates a FIXED OR SPECIAL OCCASION; and from 165 [AION], which denotes a PARTICULAR PERIOD OR INTERVAL..."​

There it is: Aion, a PARTICULAR PERIOD OR INTERVAL!!! This definition is correct, as is his first definition, "Aion, an AGE"!!!
Here then is absolute proof from the Scriptures themselves that an aion is an AGE or a PARTICULAR PERIOD OR INTERVAL:​

• There was time BEFORE the aions (I Cor. 2:7, "BEFORE the eons"). Therefore, NOT eternal .​
• God MADE the aions (Heb. 1:2, "MAKES the eons"). Therefore, NOT eternal.​
• There were aions in the PAST (Col. 1:26, "hid FROM eons"). Therefore, NOT eternal.​
• This PRESENT age is called an aion (Gal. 1:4, "the PRESENT wicked eon"). Therefore, NOT eternal.​
• This PRESENT age will come to an END (Mat. 24:3, "The END [or conclusion] of the eon"). Therefore, NOT eternal.​
• There is coming another aion AFTER this present aion (Luke 18:30, "the eon TO COME"). Therefore, NOT eternal.​
• There are, in fact, coming multiples or FUTURE AIONS (Eph. 2:7, "the ONCOMING AIONS). Therefore, NOT eternal.​
• Some aions are even contrasted with OTHER AIONS (Eph. 3:21, "the eon OF the eons"). Therefore, NOT ETERNAL.​
• All aions will come to all their ENDS (I Cor. 10:11, "the CONSUMMATIONS [plural] of the eons [plural]." Therefore, obviously not possible to be eternal!!​

Now there is Scriptural proof. We don't need Webster's Dictionary and we don't need Strong's Lexicon. The Scriptural usage of the words "aion" "aions" and "aionios" prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Greek "aions" are NOT English "eternities."
This is not my or someone else's opinion, Doctor. THIS IS PROOF. You have just seen the PROOF in your own bible. You cannot continue teaching that God will torture most of humanity in some fabled hellhole of fire for all eternity, when God says that it is His will (and God will perform ALL of his will, desire, word, etc., etc., etc. "ALL MY DESIRE WILL I DO" Isa. 46:10--11) to save ALL MANKIND (I Tim. 2:4, ALL John 12:32, EVERY KNEE AND EVERY TONGUE Phil. 2:10-11, in Christ shall ALL BE VIVIFIED ( Cor. 15:22, ALL MANKIND Rom. 5z:19, a ransom for ALL to be testified in DUE TIME I Tim. 2:5-6, yet he SHALL BE SAVED yet thus, as through FIRE I Cor. 3:15, God Who is the Saviour of ALL MANKIND I Tim. 4:11, the WORLD may be saved through Him John 3:17,
And HE is the propitiation for our sins; and not for our sins only, but also for the SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD I John 2:2, conciliating THE WORLD to Himself, NOT reckoning their offenses to them II Cor. 5:18-19, God, Who is the SAVIOR OF ALL MEN I Tim. 4:10, etc., etc., etc., etc.

"THESE THINGS COMMAND AND TEACH" (II Tim. 4:11). You don't ACTUALLY command and teach that God is the "SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN" do you, Doctor? No, of course you don't. You don't even BELIEVE these verses I just quoted, so how could you teach them.
Shame on you, Doctor. You are NOT teaching the GOSPEL [GOOD NEWS] of Jesus Christ. Your beloved eternal torture in a fabled hellhole of fire for all eternity is a damnable doctrine of devils and demons. Give it up, and begin treating your Heavenly Father and His HOLY WORDS with dignity and respect!!!

Sincerely in the name of Jesus Christ, THE SAVIOUR OF THE WHOLE WORLD!

​

 

[Heneni]

Do you actually have evidence for this or did you just completely make it up off the top of your head?

I was gonna ask you the same thing.:help:

 

[want to be hindu]

1. The bible clearly states that God created humans, allowed them to do things that he didn't like, and will send them to FSP if they do those things.
2. FSP exacts eternal suffering upon its inhabitants, as also stated in the bible.
3. Therefore, if we assume that the bible is true, God is evil.

This is clear because of 1700 years of the concept of eternal hell was the only teaching allowed in the church. The words have come to mean what the "orthodox christians" want them to mean.

In the 3rd century the idea of hell was not as clear.

The great theologian Origen (d 254 ad) believed and many of the early church writers agreed with him. That Hell was not eternal.But Christian theology crystallized around the opposite view: the Devil is everlastingly damned to an everlasting Hell, and Dante put it in a famous nutshell with the inscription over the gate to his Inferno—Abandon hope, all ye who enter here.

Contrast Dante to the great philosopher Origen.

"In my opinion the outer darkness [ HELL ] is not to be understand so much to be some dark atmosphere with out any light. Rather,it refers to those persons who, being plunged in the darkness of profound ignorance, have been placed beyonded the reach of any light of understanding."

Origen was the head of the famous catechetical school in Alexandria he is called the Father of Christian Theology.