The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering.

[Imagist]

My assertions are not backwards

I have disproved this statement multiple times on this thread. In fact, I demonstrated the way in which your assertions are backward in the exact post that you quoted. You have not even attempted to prove your statement or refute any of my disproofs of your statement.

Until you understand the need to actually base what you say in reality, your posting on this thread or anywhere else is a waste of time for all involved. Like the person in the Modest Mouse song, you think you're talking but you're just moving your mouth.

 

[mickiel]

I have disproved this statement multiple times on this thread. In fact, I demonstrated the way in which your assertions are backward in the exact post that you quoted. You have not even attempted to prove your statement or refute any of my disproofs of your statement.

Until you understand the need to actually base what you say in reality, your posting on this thread or anywhere else is a waste of time for all involved. Like the person in the Modest Mouse song, you think you're talking but you're just moving your mouth.

I hold absolutely no intrest in anything you have posted on this thread. My posting here is not a waste of time, it may be to you, but not to many others who read it.

I suggest you no longer post on this thread, why are you wasteing your time trying to communicate with me? I am not interested in you. The things you say are meaningless to me.

Peace.

 

[Spiritone]

Imagist,

It's good to be open minded and look at many possibilities. But it is wrong to assume that all possibilities are on even footing: some possibilities are obviously wrong. In this case, it is very clear: one cannot both believe in the bible and not believe in hell.

If someone was to read the Bible taking it all literally they would find some history--and miracles that could be metaphors or moral stories to guide the people of that time. All if it has been hashed out for thousands of years and there is no "proof" nor can there be imo. Jesus tried to fulfill the prophesies, and did mostly, except for what the Jews of the time expected.
Nothing he said is outdated--it is timeless in mho.

We can agree to disagree on many things and that's ok.

When I read the Bible now I see it very differently than I did a few decades ago. Now I can see the meaning beyond the written words, I believe--the dual prophesies, and examples to inspire.
Take the golden calf for example: Out in the middle of the desert they made a golden idol and worshiped it. How could they do that literally? You can see the meaning I'm sure. We have worshiped "gold" since then before the Creator and not lived the obvious directions made clear in the OT and NT. We don't need to be artificially pious but just human and understanding of others. Just my opinion.

 

[Imagist]

I hold absolutely no intrest in anything you have posted on this thread. My posting here is not a waste of time, it may be to you, but not to many others who read it.

Mickiel, not having interest in my posts is simply an attempt to sidestep having to respond. The reason you are sidestepping is that you CAN'T respond - you don't have any evidence for your claims and they are simply incorrect.

This is a discussion forum, not a place for you to proclaim your ideas. If you do not intend to discuss, you shouldn't be posting here. If you don't want criticism, get a blog and delete all the comments you get that you don't like.

It is clear you do not intend to discuss, but that doesn't mean that I cannot hold you accountable for your wrongheaded ideas. I feel the need to, because if I don't point out where you're wrong, people might be deceived.

If your ideas really have any merit, then you can only benefit from demonstrating that I am incorrect. The reason you don't is that your ideas do not have any merit.

I suggest you no longer post on this thread, why are you wasteing your time trying to communicate with me? I am not interested in you. The things you say are meaningless to me.

Since you can't disprove what I am saying you are trying to stop me from saying it. This won't work.

Whether or not you are interested in me is irrelevant. I am not trying to persuade you that you are wrong; you are clearly too entrenched in your beliefs to see reason. I will continue to point out your incorrectness for the benefit of other people reading this thread, not for yours (though if you derived some benefit from it also, I would be happy for you).

 

[Imagist]

If someone was to read the Bible taking it all literally they would find some history--and miracles that could be metaphors or moral stories to guide the people of that time.

The problem with this is that it's unclear what stories are metaphors, what is literal truth, and what is just complete nonsense. The bible says to kill gay people. What is this a metaphor for? The bible says that god told the Israelites to kill the Canaanites. There's good archaeological evidence that the genocide actually happened; are we to assume that the genocide was historical but the order from god was metaphorical?

And if we have a way of separating metaphors from literal truth from complete nonsense, then why do we need the bible? We already have an internal conscience that allows us to choose which parts of the bible are right; why don't we just use that conscience to decide what to do with our own lives?

Using the bible as a guide just adds confusion to our innate consciences. As evidence of this, note that the bible has been used to justify genocide and homophobia. We would be better off just using our consciences and not treating the bible as anything different from Great Expectations or Hamlet.

We can agree to disagree on many things and that's ok.

I agree. As drastic as our differences our, I would even invite Mickiel to continue this discussion over a friendly beer should I ever meet him in person.

When I read the Bible now I see it very differently than I did a few decades ago. Now I can see the meaning beyond the written words, I believe--the dual prophesies, and examples to inspire.

There are certainly some inspirational stories in the bible. But there are also some stories in the bible that are just as inspirational for evil as for good. Why choose the bible when there are many more inspirational stories from modern times? I recommend Profiles in Courage by John F. Kennedy. Or if you want something free, the TED talks online have provided me with a lot of inspiration.

Take the golden calf for example: Out in the middle of the desert they made a golden idol and worshiped it. How could they do that literally? You can see the meaning I'm sure. We have worshiped "gold" since then before the Creator and not lived the obvious directions made clear in the OT and NT. We don't need to be artificially pious but just human and understanding of others. Just my opinion.

I don't see a reason to take this as metaphorical. There are no physical inhibitions to the story being true (they had gold jewelry for the materials, and the technology to make statues). And multiple times in the bible it says that there should be no other gods, that god is a jealous god, and that people should be killed for worshiping idols. So unless ALL of that is metaphorical (and I don't find metaphors about being jealous particularly inspirational), it's highly improbable that the story you mention is a metaphor.

 

[kjw47]

Thank you for clearly stating what I have been saying all along:

1. God would be a sadist if hell were real.

2. According to the bible, hell IS real.

3. Therefore, according to the bible, God is a sadist.

Mickiel's argument this entire time has been completely backward:

1. I like God.

2. Therefore, he can't be a sadist.

3. God would be a sadist if hell were real.

4. Therefore, screw what the bible says: hell isn't real.

Hi, Actually hell is symbolic

 

[mickiel]

Since you can't disprove what I am saying you are trying to stop me from saying it. This won't work.

Whether or not you are interested in me is irrelevant. I am not trying to persuade you that you are wrong; you are clearly too entrenched in your beliefs to see reason. I will continue to point out your incorrectness for the benefit of other people reading this thread, not for yours (though if you derived some benefit from it also, I would be happy for you).

I understand that you " Feel" the need to disprove me, I conversely feel no need to disprove you, you do not intrest me. Your view is common and traditional, your mind plain and in a common grove concerning the things of God. I have already been around that corner with far too many of your constituants. It is elermentary, and I no longer waste time with it.

If you feel you need to discredit me, in order to save others from me, then I understand the crusade. If you get them over to your side, do me a favor, and tell them to leave me alone, and just let you pester me.

Just one of you is enough, pray tell if your converts follow you in pestering me, good greif, its like having a group of groupies on your tail.

But do as you wish, I understand your NEED. I am here for you, because I will continue to show this truth, no matter how many of you come out of the woodwork.

Peace.

Pestering peace.

 

[Spiritone]

The problem with this is that it's unclear what stories are metaphors, what is literal truth, and what is just complete nonsense. The bible says to kill gay people. What is this a metaphor for? The bible says that god told the Israelites to kill the Canaanites. There's good archaeological evidence that the genocide actually happened; are we to assume that the genocide was historical but the order from god was metaphorical?

The Bible was written by people with human qualities. And in that time life was harsh in that people were stoned and killed for many things that are ok today. That was then, this is now. Jesus brought a higher understanding of forgiveness so we can forget about what was thousands of years ago. That was their primitive search for God. But there were things of real interest to speculate on and move on.

And if we have a way of separating metaphors from literal truth from complete nonsense, then why do we need the bible? We already have an internal conscience that allows us to choose which parts of the bible are right; why don't we just use that conscience to decide what to do with our own lives?

Exactly, Why don't we?

Using the bible as a guide just adds confusion to our innate consciences. As evidence of this, note that the bible has been used to justify genocide and homophobia. We would be better off just using our consciences and not treating the bible as anything different from Great Expectations or Hamlet.

Yes, I agree. But the teachings of Jesus are a far different thing to what religions have "told" us. Actually dictated to us.

And multiple times in the bible it says that there should be no other gods, that god is a jealous god, and that people should be killed for worshiping idols. So unless ALL of that is metaphorical (and I don't find metaphors about being jealous particularly inspirational), it's highly improbable that the story you mention is a metaphor.

The Gods of greed, lust, hatred etc. and anything put before honoring God were what was being referred to. Buy now it is time to move on because things are changing rapidly and we need to keep an open observing mind and not be dragged down by the things gone past. imo.

 

[mickiel]

I agree. As drastic as our differences our, I would even invite Mickiel to continue this discussion over a friendly beer should I ever meet him in person.


.

Well I am a friendly person, but I hold no desire to speak with hell minded people. It would ruin the beer. Why drink beer with someone you do not like, and why discuss the Lord of Life, with someone who is hell minded? Hell limits salvation, it puts the crush on people.

Its stupid and means nothing. The mind of a hell believer spoils the great salvation of God, and spoils a beer too.

Peace.

 

[Imagist]

Hi, Actually hell is symbolic

Nice try. Of what is it symbolic?

 

[Imagist]

I understand that you " Feel" the need to disprove me, I conversely feel no need to disprove you, you do not intrest me. Your view is common and traditional, your mind plain and in a common grove concerning the things of God. I have already been around that corner with far too many of your constituants. It is elermentary, and I no longer waste time with it.

If you feel you need to discredit me, in order to save others from me, then I understand the crusade. If you get them over to your side, do me a favor, and tell them to leave me alone, and just let you pester me.

Just one of you is enough, pray tell if your converts follow you in pestering me, good greif, its like having a group of groupies on your tail.

But do as you wish, I understand your NEED. I am here for you, because I will continue to show this truth, no matter how many of you come out of the woodwork.

I don't NEED to do this, I'm doing it because it's the morally right thing to do.

 

[Imagist]

The problem with this is that it's unclear what stories are metaphors, what is literal truth, and what is just complete nonsense. The bible says to kill gay people. What is this a metaphor for? The bible says that god told the Israelites to kill the Canaanites. There's good archaeological evidence that the genocide actually happened; are we to assume that the genocide was historical but the order from god was metaphorical?

The Bible was written by people with human qualities. And in that time life was harsh in that people were stoned and killed for many things that are ok today. That was then, this is now. Jesus brought a higher understanding of forgiveness so we can forget about what was thousands of years ago. That was their primitive search for God. But there were things of real interest to speculate on and move on.

Which doesn't even begin to answer my question. What is meant by the order to kill gays? Was the order from god to commit genocide a metaphor that they just "accidentally" thought was a literal order?

And if we have a way of separating metaphors from literal truth from complete nonsense, then why do we need the bible? We already have an internal conscience that allows us to choose which parts of the bible are right; why don't we just use that conscience to decide what to do with our own lives?

Exactly, Why don't we?

Well, it seems that you don't because you take the bible seriously as a source of moral guidance. Why do you need moral guidance if you have a conscience?

Yes, I agree. But the teachings of Jesus are a far different thing to what religions have "told" us. Actually dictated to us.

I have no interest in what religion has "told" us. The teachings of Jesus are vile enough. Sure, he was far ahead of his time, and I admire him for that. But 2000 years later, it's time we updated a bit.

The Gods of greed, lust, hatred etc. and anything put before honoring God were what was being referred to. Buy now it is time to move on because things are changing rapidly and we need to keep an open observing mind and not be dragged down by the things gone past. imo.

Agreed. What we seem to disagree on is that I think that following the teachings of Jesus is one of the things gone past that is dragging us down.

 

[Imagist]

Well I am a friendly person, but I hold no desire to speak with hell minded people. It would ruin the beer. Why drink beer with someone you do not like, and why discuss the Lord of Life, with someone who is hell minded? Hell limits salvation, it puts the crush on people.

Its stupid and means nothing. The mind of a hell believer spoils the great salvation of God, and spoils a beer too.

I'm sorry you feel that way. Just a beer then, with no discussion? We can talk about sports.

 

[Spiritone]

Which doesn't even begin to answer my question. What is meant by the order to kill gays? Was the order from god to commit genocide a metaphor that they just "accidentally" thought was a literal order?

Where in the Bible does it state that God ordered to kill gays??? I already answered, how things were so primitive at that time and what had to be done to further spiritual growth.
Your answers don't seem to be on the same track sometimes. You say there is a hell somewhere, then knock the OT and the teachings of Jesus. I emphasized the actual teachings of Jesus, not what has been done with them.

Well, it seems that you don't because you take the bible seriously as a source of moral guidance. Why do you need moral guidance if you have a conscience?

The Bible teachings were a source of moral guidance then.
If people's consciences were in fact put to good use then we would not need to be kept in line the way we seemingly need to be.

I have no interest in what religion has "told" us.

Then why do you keep talking about what religion has told us?

The teachings of Jesus are vile enough.

Please explain..........

[/quote] Sure, he was far ahead of his time, and I admire him for that. But 2000 years later, it's time we updated a bit.[/quote]

People could not understand the teachings then and don't understand them much better now.
But we are in for an "update" that we may not like when it comes.

Agreed. What we seem to disagree on is that I think that following the teachings of Jesus is one of the things gone past that is dragging us down.

It is how the teachings are misused and abused that is dragging us down IMHO.

Be well.

 

[Bawb]

Well, ym view of hell iz jsut a dark planet, and the sky has giant eyes, and demons roam free, and some emosn torture the weaker demons, and to be toguht demon, you either had to kill people in life, or drain demons souls in hell or some variation of that.Anyway, all in all my view of hel iz a free for all of people who cant' get into heaven....basically anarchy

*Edit*
Hoo noez, maybe in my view of hell a powerful demon set up a goverment?Tho, i think goverment on earth is jsut a fad, and in the future goverment will fail.

 

[Imagist]

Where in the Bible does it state that God ordered to kill gays??? I already answered, how things were so primitive at that time and what had to be done to further spiritual growth.

If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

Your answers don't seem to be on the same track sometimes. You say there is a hell somewhere, then knock the OT and the teachings of Jesus. I emphasized the actual teachings of Jesus, not what has been done with them.

And I have emphasized that the actual teachings of Jesus include hell.

The Bible teachings were a source of moral guidance then.
If people's consciences were in fact put to good use then we would not need to be kept in line the way we seemingly need to be.

And I assert that the bible isn't what's keeping us in line -- we do put our consciences to good use. If we actually were using the bible as a source of moral guidance, we would be killing gay people.

The teachings of Jesus are vile enough.

Please explain..........

He taught us that looking at a woman lustfully is enough sin to get us sent to hell, where we would be tortured eternally. From experience I can say that puts a great deal of psychological pressure on hormonal teenage boys who believe it.

It is how the teachings are misused and abused that is dragging us down IMHO.

IMHO, there is no way to use the verses mentioned in this post which is not a misuse or an abuse (except when using them to revile the bible).

 

[Spiritone]

Thanks for the Leviticus quote. Those days were harsh and maybe that story was a way to guide people toward a better way of living. If someone is gay it's not their fault, of course. I have a probable explanation why gayness and other problems come about but it's just an idea that just leads to more disagreements so I'll leave it alone.

And I have emphasized that the actual teachings of Jesus include hell.

Jesus was trying to help people of the world. When he said something it was for a good reason. We already dealt with the physical hell verses..etc.

And I assert that the bible isn't what's keeping us in line -- we do put our consciences to good use. If we actually were using the bible as a source of moral guidance, we would be killing gay people.

Right, it isn't. Our consciences is not keeping us in line either. Jesus did not say to kill gay people. As I said, Jesus taught a more advanced teaching.

He taught us that looking at a woman lustfully is enough sin to get us sent to hell, where we would be tortured eternally. From experience I can say that puts a great deal of psychological pressure on hormonal teenage boys who believe it.

He said, "He who lusts after a woman has already committed adultery in his heart." And he taught forgiveness.

IMHO, there is no way to use the verses mentioned in this post which is not a misuse or an abuse (except when using them to revile the bible).

I don't understand what you are trying to say here, sorry.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Well, ym view of hell iz jsut a dark planet, and the sky has giant eyes, and demons roam free, and some emosn torture the weaker demons, and to be toguht demon, you either had to kill people in life, or drain demons souls in hell or some variation of that.Anyway, all in all my view of hel iz a free for all of people who cant' get into heaven....basically anarchy

*Edit*
Hoo noez, maybe in my view of hell a powerful demon set up a goverment?Tho, i think goverment on earth is jsut a fad, and in the future goverment will fail.

Or maybe hell is reserved for the illiterate.

(sorry, couldn't resist)

 

[blackout]

I'm sorry you feel that way. Just a beer then, with no discussion? We can talk about sports.

Now that would be hell for me right there. :areyoucra

 

[Imagist]

Now that would be hell for me right there. :areyoucra

Well, if I ever have a beer with you, I won't discuss sports. I generally tailor my conversation to the person with whom I am conversing.