:tribal2:opcorn::seesaw:
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The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering.
- Thread starter mickiel
- Start date
:tribal2:opcorn::seesaw:The death of Christ on the Cross redeemed us all.
But it will not save us all. It merely gives us the
grace and the means to save our souls. Many of us
will refuse to be saved. God gave us free will. He
will not destroy our free will in order to save us.
He wants us to love and adore Him freely.
But it will not save us all. It merely gives us the
grace and the means to save our souls. Many of us
will refuse to be saved. God gave us free will. He
will not destroy our free will in order to save us.
He wants us to love and adore Him freely.
I think you are
There is not anything a man can do to bring about his own salvation. All the saved are predestined by God to salvation.(Eph 1:4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:Also, we have not free will :no:in that Adam and Eve lost free will when Satan conquered them in the garden, and it was then that they became under bondage to Satan, and thusly, all mankind. :faint:You cannot decide when you will want to be saved. Furthermore, we are not redeemed until the end of the world, because it is only our spirit that is sanctified in Christ. (Eph 1:13) In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
(Eph 1:14) Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. The redemption is complete when we receive out new body. (Eph 2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
If you have nay question to what I have written here, point out what is what.:sorry1:
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How one works out his/her salvation is ultimately a mystery.
God does favor some over others as far as the graces He may
grant them. But even those who are favored can reject this gift
from God and lose their souls.
Any good that we may possess comes from God. Yet, we are truly
free in whether we choose to obey God or not. It is a mystery that
only God can understand.
God does favor some over others as far as the graces He may
grant them. But even those who are favored can reject this gift
from God and lose their souls.
Any good that we may possess comes from God. Yet, we are truly
free in whether we choose to obey God or not. It is a mystery that
only God can understand.
You are talking your own mind and because you do not know how to read the scripture it is assumed by you to be a mystery. Talk to a priest about your understanding. You had homework in school, learn to do your homework by reading and understanding the bible.
HOW MANY VERSE DO I HAVE TO SHOW YOU THAT YOU CANNOT DO ANYTHING TO GAIN YOUR OWN SALVATION.
If you were capable of understaning I will give you this verse and then tell me if you still think it is possible. But first, remember that christ was the 7th day sabbath in the Old testament. And God did and does all the work of salvation: (Num 15:32) And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
(Num 15:33) And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
(Num 15:34) And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
(Num 15:35) And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. Why, because the man thought he can do his own thing to bring about his salvation.
ANY WHO: how can you seek salvation unless God draws you?
(Rom 3:11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.(Rom 3:12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
(Rom 3:13) Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:
(Rom 3:14) Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness::slap:
mickiel
Well-Known Member
I think Salvation is something God is going to give to every human, reguardless of what they believe. If I were God, I certainly wouldnot put salvation in the hands of a human, or their choice. It would doom far too many of us. Goodness, I have that much sense, I can't understand why many seem to think that God does not. People just do not understand God, and they are growing increasingly " Inward", depending on their feelings and not knowing just what Faith is.
God is going to get all of us our Salvation, don't you believe nothing different.
Peace.
God is going to get all of us our Salvation, don't you believe nothing different.
Peace.
Imagist
Worshipper of Athe.
If everyone is going to heaven, then why do you care what people believe?
mickiel
Well-Known Member
I don't care what people believe. Maybe you think your talking to someonelse, I have never said I care what others believe.
Peace.
Imagist
Worshipper of Athe.
If you don't care, then why do you continue to post "the good news"?
mickiel
Well-Known Member
Imagist
Worshipper of Athe.
Romaine lettuce is better than iceburg. I don't go posting about it, because I don't care. You, on the other hand, keep posting because you do care.
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
Everyone just needs to keep in mind that the only reason god threatens his creations with an eternity of suffering and misery, is that he loves us so incredibly much. It's kind of like the husbands who get a bad rap for beating their wives - they love their wives, but if the women don't want to get beaten, then they should do what their husbands say and stop making them angry.
What load of bull. You never heard of Heaven? You are only looking at the negatives and totally ignoring the positives. To compare God to a wife beater is about a whacko as it gets. Our relationship with God is like a family. God is the parent. Lays down the rules and enforces them. You are the child. You are expected to follow those rules. If you follow the rules you are rewarded. If you do not you are punished. This is how a healthy family works.
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
Yes, if you don't follow the rules, you will suffer for eternity in a lake of fire. Very healthy family.
You don't suffer eternally. You soul is snuffed out, erased, annihilated. But yeah that's the law. Again you overlooked the positive of being rewarded with eternal life in Heaven. Your bias is searingly obvious on this matter, which is a shame.
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
Ironic much?
How so? What is more humane? To allow a mortally wounded creature to suffer or to euthanize it and end its misery? You see death as a terrible thing. Because you are afraid of it. But when the only two options are to die a slow horrible death, or end it quickly, which will you choose?
If I may, I go along with Enoch07 on this one, God does not make the wicked suffer forever. God is merciful! It simply means that forever they will never again come to life.
Even Sodom 's fires went out.
To give some more perspectives on this issue, why not let us consider the patristic theologians, particularly the Eastern ones and their interpretation of hell. Keep in mind that these interpretations are distinctly not influenced by Medieval, post-Anselm soteriologies:
Just to offer some perspective.
The patristic theologians saw Hell as the Love of God. Remember that this theology occured anterior to the one about Hell being the wrath of God. Also remember that I'm just offering just a few perspectives on the issue; many early Christians believed in what was known as the doctrine of apocatastasis, (a la Clement of Alexandria, Origen and the Cappadocians: Gregory Nazianzus and Gregory of Nyssa). It would be hard to overestimate the importance and influence of Origen for patristic eschatology and for the history of theology in general, were we living contemporary with Origen, we would find it normal to believe what he thought, his influence was so great. However, his doctrine of apocatastasis was ultimately rejected by Augustine and until until recent attempts to reexamine his thought and rehabilitate this great theologian, most notably by Hans Urs von Balthasar, Origin's work was for the most part considered to be heretical. What must be noted was that this was a late antiquity to medieval religious turn. Augustine, who went at great length in defending the eternity of eschatological punishment was later defended moreso by Thomas Aquinas who even suggested that the happiness of the bless is all the greater when they behold the misery which they have escapted. The Church continued to condemn theories of universal salvation in various contexts. Lateran IV (1215), against the Albigensians, affirmed the eternity of heaven and hell. In Benedictus Deus (1336), Benedict XII defined that those who die in mortal sin go down to into hell immediately after death. In our own day, the Letter of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith on Certain Questions Concerning Eschatology (1979) has reaffirmed the "traditional" teaching.
Further, in current Catholic eschatology, virtually all theologians emphasize the universal scope of God's savaing will and move beyond a view of divine justice which seems to separate it from and pit it against God's love and mercy. Many theologians stress that while we believe that heaven is indeed (already) a reality, hell is, at most, a real possibility. After all, the Church which reverences the saints refuses to say that even one single person is or will be in hell.
These are significant and desperately needed corrections to the pessimistic and threatening exaggerations of much past theology and popular piety. Still, most Catholic theologians refuse to embrace a doctrine of universal salvation outright, not only because it would seem to have been condemned rather strongly and consistently by the magisterium but also because they believe that to do so would be tantamount to denying the reality of human freedom. Most admit and insist upon a fundamental tension or dialectic between the sovereignty of God's universally saving act and human freedom which must embrace it freely. Within the limits of Catholic "orthodoxy" what is encouraged by most is a strong and active hope that all will be saved.
Theological efforts today, which attempt to correct the pessimistic exaggerations of the past and the frightful images of God to which they gave rise, are not to be dismissed as a modern "sellout" or watering down of the Gospel. They are deeply rooted in early Christian theology. The history of theology shows how difficult it is to systematize Christian belief in both the reality of human freedom and the sovereignty of divine grace. Indeed, theological reflection on the nature, possibilities, and limits of human freedom remains an important task for the future. Particularly, contemporary philosophical understandings contra Sartre which claim that human nature is not "condemned to freedom", but rather exists in dialectical tension itself with what Heidegger termed facticity. Indeed, contemporary Continental philosophy leans much more on the determinist side of human freedom, yet never always there. Further, human social and political restraints become a factor too in that they structure society in socio-economic segregation which in turn shapes and influences human actions.
Further, I have not even touched on contemporary post-colonial theological speculations which attempt to do away with Christian colonial and neo-colonial imperialist notions of soteriology. This again becomes a contributing issue to be thought through in the context of "hell" and "grace" and "exclusivity" and even "inclusivity" -- All of which can and have been expression of neo-colonialism.
Allan
Just to offer some perspective.
The patristic theologians saw Hell as the Love of God. Remember that this theology occured anterior to the one about Hell being the wrath of God. Also remember that I'm just offering just a few perspectives on the issue; many early Christians believed in what was known as the doctrine of apocatastasis, (a la Clement of Alexandria, Origen and the Cappadocians: Gregory Nazianzus and Gregory of Nyssa). It would be hard to overestimate the importance and influence of Origen for patristic eschatology and for the history of theology in general, were we living contemporary with Origen, we would find it normal to believe what he thought, his influence was so great. However, his doctrine of apocatastasis was ultimately rejected by Augustine and until until recent attempts to reexamine his thought and rehabilitate this great theologian, most notably by Hans Urs von Balthasar, Origin's work was for the most part considered to be heretical. What must be noted was that this was a late antiquity to medieval religious turn. Augustine, who went at great length in defending the eternity of eschatological punishment was later defended moreso by Thomas Aquinas who even suggested that the happiness of the bless is all the greater when they behold the misery which they have escapted. The Church continued to condemn theories of universal salvation in various contexts. Lateran IV (1215), against the Albigensians, affirmed the eternity of heaven and hell. In Benedictus Deus (1336), Benedict XII defined that those who die in mortal sin go down to into hell immediately after death. In our own day, the Letter of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith on Certain Questions Concerning Eschatology (1979) has reaffirmed the "traditional" teaching.
Further, in current Catholic eschatology, virtually all theologians emphasize the universal scope of God's savaing will and move beyond a view of divine justice which seems to separate it from and pit it against God's love and mercy. Many theologians stress that while we believe that heaven is indeed (already) a reality, hell is, at most, a real possibility. After all, the Church which reverences the saints refuses to say that even one single person is or will be in hell.
These are significant and desperately needed corrections to the pessimistic and threatening exaggerations of much past theology and popular piety. Still, most Catholic theologians refuse to embrace a doctrine of universal salvation outright, not only because it would seem to have been condemned rather strongly and consistently by the magisterium but also because they believe that to do so would be tantamount to denying the reality of human freedom. Most admit and insist upon a fundamental tension or dialectic between the sovereignty of God's universally saving act and human freedom which must embrace it freely. Within the limits of Catholic "orthodoxy" what is encouraged by most is a strong and active hope that all will be saved.
Theological efforts today, which attempt to correct the pessimistic exaggerations of the past and the frightful images of God to which they gave rise, are not to be dismissed as a modern "sellout" or watering down of the Gospel. They are deeply rooted in early Christian theology. The history of theology shows how difficult it is to systematize Christian belief in both the reality of human freedom and the sovereignty of divine grace. Indeed, theological reflection on the nature, possibilities, and limits of human freedom remains an important task for the future. Particularly, contemporary philosophical understandings contra Sartre which claim that human nature is not "condemned to freedom", but rather exists in dialectical tension itself with what Heidegger termed facticity. Indeed, contemporary Continental philosophy leans much more on the determinist side of human freedom, yet never always there. Further, human social and political restraints become a factor too in that they structure society in socio-economic segregation which in turn shapes and influences human actions.
Further, I have not even touched on contemporary post-colonial theological speculations which attempt to do away with Christian colonial and neo-colonial imperialist notions of soteriology. This again becomes a contributing issue to be thought through in the context of "hell" and "grace" and "exclusivity" and even "inclusivity" -- All of which can and have been expression of neo-colonialism.
Allan