The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering.

[applewuud]

I was drawn to Universalist* theology decades ago by the same idea Mickiel has: that there's an incompatibility between the idea of a just and/or loving God who creates all things and the concept of everlasting punishment. There are a lot of pathologies in that concept: if God puts people in hell for eternity for crimes or attitudes that are not eternal, then it's OK for human beings who believe they're acting on God's behalf to put "evildoers" in concentration camps, nuke them, or fly planes into buildings.

However, there are two issues that are important to this thread:

1) Are the concepts of heaven, hell and original sin really as important to Judeo-Christian thought as some make it out to be? My impression has grown through the years that mature thinkers in the Catholic, Episcopal, Methodist, and Congregational denominations, as well as in Reform Judaism, don't think punishment in an afterlife is more than a side issue in scripture. As other posters have shown there are many who think it is THE issue, but to say that churches all preach the same on this is false. Check out Mathew Fox's "Original Blessing" for the views of a Catholic that it is our modern war culture that emphasises this issue, not the early Christian church.

2) The idea of hell is reinforced by a longing for justice by oppressed people who see no justice "in this life" and appeal for justice in another. If you were a prisoner in Dachau concentration camp in 1943, the idea that the SS officers who were throwing your friends and relatives into cremation ovens would eventually meet the same fate (in a more eternal way) might have had a certain appeal, especially when it seemed the Nazis were winning. Same thing for Christians being fed to the lions under centuries of Roman imperial rule, or any other group under seemingly hopeless oppression.

I don't agree with this "solution", just offering some understanding of why humans have come up with this particular archetype.

*19th-century Universalist theology held that the concept of an everlasting punishment was incompatible with a loving God, although they still allowed for a purgatory-like cleansing or equalizing. Modern Universalism dismissed the concept of hell entirely.

 

[logician]

I was drawn to Universalist* theology decades ago by the same idea Mickiel has: that there's an incompatibility between the idea of a just and/or loving God who creates all things and the concept of everlasting punishment. There are a lot of pathologies in that concept: if God puts people in hell for eternity for crimes or attitudes that are not eternal, then it's OK for human beings who believe they're acting on God's behalf to put "evildoers" in concentration camps, nuke them, or fly planes into buildings.

However, there are two issues that are important to this thread:

1) Are the concepts of heaven, hell and original sin really as important to Judeo-Christian thought as some make it out to be? My impression has grown through the years that mature thinkers in the Catholic, Episcopal, Methodist, and Congregational denominations, as well as in Reform Judaism, don't think punishment in an afterlife is more than a side issue in scripture. As other posters have shown there are many who think it is THE issue, but to say that churches all preach the same on this is false. Check out Mathew Fox's "Original Blessing" for the views of a Catholic that it is our modern war culture that emphasises this issue, not the early Christian church.

2) The idea of hell is reinforced by a longing for justice by oppressed people who see no justice "in this life" and appeal for justice in another. If you were a prisoner in Dachau concentration camp in 1943, the idea that the SS officers who were throwing your friends and relatives into cremation ovens would eventually meet the same fate (in a more eternal way) might have had a certain appeal, especially when it seemed the Nazis were winning. Same thing for Christians being fed to the lions under centuries of Roman imperial rule, or any other group under seemingly hopeless oppression.

I don't agree with this "solution", just offering some understanding of why humans have come up with this particular archetype.

*19th-century Universalist theology held that the concept of an everlasting punishment was incompatible with a loving God, although they still allowed for a purgatory-like cleansing or equalizing. Modern Universalism dismissed the concept of hell entirely.

I agree with your post bascially, but is the existence of something open to a person's interpretation of it, or of a supposed god's personality?

 

[mickiel]

I agree with your post bascially, but is the existence of something open to a person's interpretation of it, or of a supposed god's personality?

Well its one or the other. And then the two can blend. And if God decides to involve himself in the mix, then insight is added. When God created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he is the one who started the mix back then. And all of our beliefs have been drawn from that volitile mix. I think the production of all human knowledge has drawn itself from that mix.

Peace.

 

[tariqkhwaja]

This is courtesy of Phasmid:

When I was a theist, I used to be affraid of Hell as a form of punishment since Hell is eternal. A mother slapping a child on the wrist causes a moment's pain and teaches a lesson, what lesson is there to be learned in eternal pain?


So I was like good point. If Theists believe God to love us more than our own mother, Eternal Hell has to be done away with.

 

[mickiel]

This is courtesy of Phasmid:

When I was a theist, I used to be affraid of Hell as a form of punishment since Hell is eternal. A mother slapping a child on the wrist causes a moment's pain and teaches a lesson, what lesson is there to be learned in eternal pain?


So I was like good point. If Theists believe God to love us more than our own mother, Eternal Hell has to be done away with.

Well yes, a very good point which I agree with. And those who believe in eternal pain, I don't think they realize just how long eternity will be. If you use human time to imagine eternity, then the slapping on the wrist will be 9 billion years, then that followed by 76 trillion years, plus another 999 million years times infinity, and it still has not even begun to begin, and that is literal insanity. More than insanity, it seeks to place this insanity as something God is planning on doing to someone, simply because they reject him. The punishment does not fit the crime and does not reflect Gods mercy, his wisdom or his integrity and fairness. And it reflects the serious nature of error in human belief.

Because human belief is sadistic and merciless, some of us tend to think God is that way. Why should God erect an eternal monument to this level of pain? It would be an eternal curse. Revelations 22:3 says that there shall no longer be ANY curse, and 21:4 says there shall NO LONGER be ANY mourning, crying or PAIN, all of which must exist if eternal hell will exist, and it suggest also that God will Co-Exist with this misery he allows, which is really an insult to Gods Regal Characther and sane judgement. Why would God coexist will something he does not like for all of eternity, when he could simply will it out of existance?

Peace.

 

[applewuud]

I agree with your post bascially, but is the existence of something open to a person's interpretation of it, or of a supposed god's personality?

The "existence" in an objective sense isn't a matter of interpretation, but in a mythic/poetic/archetypal/psychological sense--which is the framework that best seems to fit this particular issue--interpretation is all there is. The anti-hell postings in this thread postulate that the concept of hell comes from a desire by a hierarchy to "scare people into belief", or control and manipulate society. That may be true, but the concept must have had some appeal to the people at large otherwise they would self-extinguish. That appeal is the desire for justice by the oppressed. The paradox is that it creates questions about a just and loving God.

 

[logician]

The "existence" in an objective sense isn't a matter of interpretation, but in a mythic/poetic/archetypal/psychological sense--which is the framework that best seems to fit this particular issue--interpretation is all there is. The anti-hell postings in this thread postulate that the concept of hell comes from a desire by a hierarchy to "scare people into belief", or control and manipulate society. That may be true, but the concept must have had some appeal to the people at large otherwise they would self-extinguish. That appeal is the desire for justice by the oppressed. The paradox is that it creates questions about a just and loving God.

I don' believe in god concepts or hell. The concept of hell is not even well biblically supported - it was more of an afterthought of CHristianity taken to extremes by the Catholic church, which added levels of hell, and purgatory, partially to enrich their coffers to have people hire priests to pray loved ones out of same.

Yes, the idea that any supposed benevolent god could create a place of eternal punishment is quite barbaric.

 

[Da Troof]

I don' believe in god concepts or hell. The concept of hell is not even well biblically supported - it was more of an afterthought of CHristianity taken to extremes by the Catholic church, which added levels of hell, and purgatory, partially to enrich their coffers to have people hire priests to pray loved ones out of same.

Yes, the idea that any supposed benevolent god could create a place of eternal punishment is quite barbaric.

Hmmm ...... Yes......but surely if heaven is so wonderful, and you only go there if you believe in God and follow the right religion (but which one?!) then to be anywhere else would be hell.

The only way to avoid the concept of a "place of eternal punishment" is to also reject the idea of a place of eternal reward.

 

[mickiel]

When things are based on the concepts of men, we can only go as far as men have gone, and no further. When things are based on God, its just no limits as to what could occur.

Peace.

 

[mickiel]

What the world needs now is concepts of Love, not concepts of a christian hell. But the lust of christians who push hell, or the belief that God is selective of humans, is caught up in the pride of themselves being chosen, and sinners not being within reach of God. They think God protects believers, and rejects unbelievers. Thus they feel Gods concept of human life, is based on human righteousness, or humans who choose rightly. This in essence places the focus on humans, and off of a God who sacraficed his own son for the world of humanity. It teaches that Jesus was beaten to death, so that unbelievers can be beaten for all of eternity.

Utter foolishness, but evidence of utter deception that has been soaked in by humanity.

Peace.

 

[crystalonyx]

Hmmm ...... Yes......but surely if heaven is so wonderful, and you only go there if you believe in God and follow the right religion (but which one?!) then to be anywhere else would be hell.

The only way to avoid the concept of a "place of eternal punishment" is to also reject the idea of a place of eternal reward.

I don't logically think a true heaven could exist. FIrst, more than likely some members of your family will be missing- how could you be happy with that? LIkewise, at what stage of your life are you "in" heaven mentally, the stage at death, some other time(youth). Lots of problems here.

 

[mickiel]

I don't logically think a true heaven could exist. FIrst, more than likely some members of your family will be missing- how could you be happy with that? LIkewise, at what stage of your life are you "in" heaven mentally, the stage at death, some other time(youth). Lots of problems here.

Again, this view is under the influence that makes room for there being a certain amount of people who willnot " Make it." Again, its the eternal hell influence, and too many people are trying to make room for this in their belief. Rather than make room for Gods Goodness, Gods Mercy, Gods Love, God Gentleness, and give perminence to that, we look for ways to give perminence to things that God himself willnot allow to last forever.

Why would God co-exist in eternity with the knowledge that not all humans are going to be with him in eternity, and then allow our awareness of that to be perminent?

Peace.

 

[logician]

Again, this view is under the influence that makes room for there being a certain amount of people who willnot " Make it." Again, its the eternal hell influence, and too many people are trying to make room for this in their belief. Rather than make room for Gods Goodness, Gods Mercy, Gods Love, God Gentleness, and give perminence to that, we look for ways to give perminence to things that God himself willnot allow to last forever.

Why would God co-exist in eternity with the knowledge that not all humans are going to be with him in eternity, and then allow our awareness of that to be perminent?

Peace.

There is no requirement that a supposed god be good, in fact, a god could very very likely be malevolent(from our viewpoint), or at least neutral.

 

[idea]

I don't logically think a true heaven could exist. FIrst, more than likely some members of your family will be missing- how could you be happy with that? .

you cannot be happy without others, that is why it is so hard to be a convert hard to be the only one in your fam....

20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

every member is needed....

15 And now, my dearly beloved brethren and sisters, let me assure you that these are principles in relation to the dead and the living that cannot be lightly passed over, as pertaining to our salvation. For their salvation is necessary and essential to our salvation, as Paul says concerning the fathers—that they without us cannot be made perfect—neither can we without our dead be made perfect.

Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

We need all of you!!! or it just won't be heaven....

There are many levels of heaven..
1 Cor 15:
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star cdiffereth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.

perhaps your personal glory is the number of people you become joined together with...

Matt 6:
20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

the treasures in heaven are eachother - our family / friends / the people we love and care about...

LIkewise, at what stage of your life are you "in" heaven mentally, the stage at death, some other time(youth). Lots of problems here

We cannot control others, but we can control ourself. I think you reach heaven when you learn how to love others, instead of waiting around for them to love you...

"No body loves me everybody hates me I'm going to go eat worms"
"No body sits next to me"
etc. etc....

There is a point in life where you stop relying on how others treat you, and instead you are the one to go sit by them, you are the one to love them - regardless of their ability to love others... you reach heaven when you are able to love as God and Jesus do.

 

[idea]

There is no requirement that a supposed god be good, in fact, a god could very very likely be malevolent(from our viewpoint), or at least neutral.

semantics...
to me, all powerful = all loving, merciful, just, good

It is hard to be good only a God could do it.

 

[oldcajun]

I really am looking to understand God, but not this God that humans teach, but the real God of Love , Joy and Peace. Not this God of eternal hell punishing, but the God of Patience, forgiveness and Mercy. You know, the real God, not this insane lunatic that many are trying to pass God off as being. You know, this lunatic that will place humans in this eternal Pain amphlipier and punish them for billions upon trillions of untold time and on into infinity. I just can't imagine how out of control this hell fire belief has gotten. And how much these bloodthirsty christians who teach it have ruined Gods reputation.

The eternal punishing of anything, muchless a human, is a sick concept, yet many believers have swallowed it into their belief, hook, line and sinker. And THAT is evidence of just how much foolishness we will absorb.


Peace.

What the Bible says and what many Christians believe is many times, two different things. What the Bible actually says about hell can be found at the links:

Booklet > Heaven & Hell: What Does the Bible Really Teach? > Introduction

Booklet > Heaven & Hell: What Does the Bible Really Teach? > Are Some Tortured Forever in a Lake of Fire?

 

[mickiel]

What the Bible says and what many Christians believe is many times, two different things. What the Bible actually says about hell can be found at the links:

Booklet > Heaven & Hell: What Does the Bible Really Teach? > Introduction

Booklet > Heaven & Hell: What Does the Bible Really Teach? > Are Some Tortured Forever in a Lake of Fire?

I think the bible is too unclear on hell to make clear assumptions, or to formulate clear doctrines from it. I would rather forulate assumptions that are based on Gods mind, his revealed ways and means. God is Goodness, Gentleness, Peace, Patience, Longsuffering and Kind, NONE of which define hell. Yet we tend to try and force a place like hell into our belief. Its because we are hell minded, stricken by its eternal pain, attracted to its unholy torture and misery. We give place to it, embrace it and some actually Love it!

In Matthews 16:18, Jesus himself speaking;" And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this Rock I will build My church, " And the gates of Hell shall NOT overpower it!" Yet hells gates have indeed overpowered so many believers, they stand on it as a very integral doctrine in their churchs, so it has prevailed in their minds, it has intwined itself into their belief. To the point that they see hell overpowering much of humanity.

Hell is brutal, painful and misery, NONE of which are things God would give Eternity to. But it lives in humans. And it lives because THEY want it to thrive.

Peace.

 

[logician]

semantics...
to me, all powerful = all loving, merciful, just, good

It is hard to be good only a God could do it.

Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

 

[idea]

Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Knowing others is intelligence; knowing yourself is true wisdom. Mastering others is strength; mastering yourself is true power.
from Tao Te Ching

One who conquers himself is greater than another who conquers a thousand times a thousand on the battlefield.
from The Dhammapada

Proverbs 16:32 -He that is slow to anger is better than the mighty; and he that ruleth his spirit than he that taketh a city.

 

[crystalonyx]

Knowing others is intelligence; knowing yourself is true wisdom. Mastering others is strength; mastering yourself is true power.
from Tao Te Ching

One who conquers himself is greater than another who conquers a thousand times a thousand on the battlefield.
from The Dhammapada

Proverbs 16:32 -He that is slow to anger is better than the mighty; and he that ruleth his spirit than he that taketh a city.

This has nothing to do with the premise that a supposed god can certainly be malevolent.