The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering.

[URAVIP2ME]

Either way is fine.

If you don't believe in free will why bother to come to a debate site? Why bother to live?


Of course hell doesn't exist, nor does this god of which you speak. But this thread is on the concept of hell.

He doesn’t fail to give faith, He just doesn’t give to all right now because He is going by His plan and part of His plan right now is that not everyone will have faith. He has not made any mistakes and from the beginning of the world He took responsibility. quote]

If there is no free will why is a plan neccessary? It would be as if all life was just a play, and god was writing that play for his own amusment.

Absolutely nothing.


If man doesn't have free will how can he want to save himself? Are we trapped in our own bodies as this god manipulates them like puppets, secretly longing to control our own bodies as one who's being rapped?

RE: ^according to Deuteronomy (30:19) we have a choice as did Joshua (24:15). According to Deut (32:5) people corrupt themselves.

Jesus didn't exist, assuming he existed at all, until 2000 years ago. That is hardly the 'beggining'.

RE: ^according to Scripture Jesus was firstborn in the heavens as the beginning of all creation either in heaven first, then earth. Jesus lived in the heavens as the beginning of God's creation according to Revelation (3:14 B); Colossians (1:15,16) before God sent Jesus to earth.

We have no free will but can be humbled by 'evil'. What part of that makes sence?

Exactly? Then you agree your god isn't real.


Oh, and what is this 'word of god' of which you speak?

RE:^ Jesus believed the 'Word of God' (John 17:17) were the Scriptures as religious truth.


No, in fact, you are the one that introduced the idea of eternal annihilation to this thread, not me.

RE:^ the Bible introduces and teaches the idea of eternal annihilation or destruction. Psalm 92:7; 2nd Thessalonians 1:9 punishment is annihilation.

 

[shadze]

The bible does not teach the wastfull concept of annihlation which is a doctrine of a powerless God. The Bible teaches the doctrine of Rehibilitation. Christ came to save all.
My god has a rehibilitation plan for all. this plan is much better than the middle eastern version of soul recycling which eventually leads to being a part of nebuluios morph.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Doesn't Matthew (20:28 B) say Jesus gave his life as a ransom for 'many' ?

Jesus died for all, but 'all' do not accept him such as those that commit the unforgivable sin of Matthew 12:32 and Hebrews 6:4-6.

 

[AK4]

Either way is fine.

If you don't believe in free will why bother to come to a debate site? Why bother to live?


Of course hell doesn't exist, nor does this god of which you speak. But this thread is on the concept of hell.



RE:^ the Bible introduces and teaches the idea of eternal annihilation or destruction. Psalm 92:7; 2nd Thessalonians 1:9 punishment is annihilation.

This why one needs to do there homework or study to show thyself approved. Lets take Psalms 92:7.

That when the wicked sprouted up like grass And all who did iniquity flourished, It was only that they might be destroyed forevermore *.

It says destroyed forevermore. That word forevermore in the hebrew is "ad" and means



prep

1. as far as, even to, until, up to, while, as far as
   1. of space
      1. as far as, up to, even to
   2. in combination
      1. from...as far as, both...and (with 'min' - from)
   3. of time
      1. even to, until, unto, till, during, end
   4. of degree
      1. even to, to the degree of, even like conj
2. until, while, to the point that, so that even

So as you can see they are destroyed "up to, as far as, even to, UNTIL". We will finish this thought in a little. Now that little asterick mark afterwards it means---well lets put what strongs have for it and even show how strongs can be wrong too. Not that im a scholar or anything but you will see how when you compare some of his definitions to scripture, some of them wont add up. Here is what that asterick means

1. perpetuity, for ever, continuing future
2. ancient (of past time)
3. for ever (of future time)
   1. of continuous existence
4. for ever (of God's existence)

Now let me show you were these people are not destroyed forever but rather destoyed in perpetuity ---until, as far as, up to. Well what are they destoyed up to---this alone should show that forever is not a accurate translation of that asterick because if it was forever that they were destroyed, then there would not be an UP TO. Pretty easy to follow right---Saying i will live forever is not the same as saying i will live up to [a certain point]. When you say "up to" you are indicating a stop/starting point.

Okay thats out of the way. So since they are destroyed up to something, what are they destoyed up to----Judgment a.k.a the resurrection of the wicked. That should answer that for you. They are destroyed UP TO, UNTIL they are resurrected to judgment. That alone should show you that they are not destroyed forever. And so to put this to bed what happens to them when they are now alive and not destroyed forever and are in the judgment---

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]Isa 26:9 - .... for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. [/FONT]

So there is still no scriptural backing for eternal annihilation.

 

[AK4]

Doesn't Matthew (20:28 B) say Jesus gave his life as a ransom for 'many' ?

Jesus died for all, but 'all' do not accept him such as those that commit the unforgivable sin of Matthew 12:32 and Hebrews 6:4-6.

I could have sworn i showed that there is no unforgivable sin except that there is only a unforgivable sin for this age and the age to come and thats it. Afterwards all will be forgiven.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I could have sworn i showed that there is no unforgivable sin except that there is only a unforgivable sin for this age and the age to come and thats it. Afterwards all will be forgiven.

No forgiveness now for the unforgivable sin, and no future forgiveness because the age to come is future.

Then why does Matthew 20:28 say 'MANY' and not all?

Doesn't Mark (3:29) say no forgiveness forever?
(Matt 12:32; Hebrews 6:4-6; 10:26)
1st John 5:16, 17 a sin unto death. Two kinds of sin mentioned:
The kind that can be forgiven, and the willful, deliberate not forgivable sin.


In the Hebrew doesn't 'forever and ever' underscore permanence?
Such as: Psalm 9:5 forever and ever. (Ps 10:16; 45:6,17; 48:14)

 

[Tekern]

The word "hell " is found in many bible translations. In the same verses other translations read "the grave," "the world of the dead ," so forth. Other bibles simply transliterate the original-language words that are sometimes rendered " hell "; that is,they express them with the letters of our alphabet but leave the words untranslated. What are those words? The Hebrew she'ohl'
and it's Greek equivalent hai'des, which refer, not to an individual burial place, but to the common grave of dead mankind; also the Greek ge'en-na, which is used as a symbal of eternal destruction. However, both in Christendom and in many non-Christian religions it is taught that he'll is a place inhabited by demons and where the wicked, after death, are punished ( and some believe that this is with torment).
Please read Eccl.9:5,10 and Ps.146.4. God's word the bible is quite clear as to the condition of the dead.
And regards the punishment for our sins, Paul wrote at Romans 6:23:"For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord."
Yes, God is a loviving God. Also a just God.

 

[AK4]

No forgiveness now for the unforgivable sin, and no future forgiveness because the age to come is future.

Then why does Matthew 20:28 say 'MANY' and not all?

Doesn't Mark (3:29) say no forgiveness forever?
(Matt 12:32; Hebrews 6:4-6; 10:26)
1st John 5:16, 17 a sin unto death. Two kinds of sin mentioned:
The kind that can be forgiven, and the willful, deliberate not forgivable sin.


In the Hebrew doesn't 'forever and ever' underscore permanence?
Such as: Psalm 9:5 forever and ever. (Ps 10:16; 45:6,17; 48:14)

Forever and ever is NOT scriptural. It is not a properly translated word. Besides let me ask you a question

When God called out ancient israel, what was there purpose to be? To save the rest of mankind and come to the knowledge of the one true God. But God didnt give them a heart to be able to do this. So what is to be the purpose of His new church--- to do what the first church couldnt. Now what does that do with the doctrine of going to heaven and leaving the rest in a hell or annihilated forever. It destroys it. Did Gods plan ever change?---to save all of mankind? No. Does God change? No. So once again mans doctrine to say that they will never EVER be forgiven and/or are destroyed forever doesnt fit with what the Word of God teaches.

 

[imaginaryme]

Forever and ever is NOT scriptural. It is not a properly translated word. Besides let me ask you a question

When God called out ancient israel, what was there purpose to be? To save the rest of mankind and come to the knowledge of the one true God. But God didnt give them a heart to be able to do this. So what is to be the purpose of His new church--- to do what the first church couldnt. Now what does that do with the doctrine of going to heaven and leaving the rest in a hell or annihilated forever. It destroys it. Did Gods plan ever change?---to save all of mankind? No. Does God change? No. So once again mans doctrine to say that they will never EVER be forgiven and/or are destroyed forever doesnt fit with what the Word of God teaches.

Nice siggy.

Hell simply does not exist outside the mind. At the threshold between causality and eternity, a single moment will stretch to a seeming forever - if you have been entangled in this illusionary hell as projected by Christian dogma, you may find yourself stuck there whether or not you think you have deserved it. This is because we have never been taught to understand the self nor our place in the natural order of things. Here is the key to set you free, if ever you should find yourself in darkness - there is no duration in eternity.

 

[Muffled]

Thats the problem with mankind and their "wisdom". They dont know God so in their reasoning they think something "smells like hell". How can something smell like hell when hell is not a word that should of been translated from the words sheol and hades! Its like saying "well my preacher says that the color black is really white because it "smells like it". Or better yet since the translators made up a word for hades and sheol why not say it smells like fish. Square circles makes just as much sense

As you ought to well know, translators take a word in one language and try to find a matching word in another language. Sometimes this doesn't work because there is no word to translate to as in the word "Paraclete" which is translated many ways because english doesn't have one word that fits. Semitic lands don't have caves that go down to where it gets hot so they don't have a word for it. The Greek "Hades" and English "Hell" describe such places because those lands have the caves. However any reference to a fiery place such as "Gehenna " could be an attempt to put in Hebrew the concept of the fiery place known as Hell.

I agree that Hell should not be used as a translation for grave, "Sheol" simply because Hell was used as a burial place but that does not mean that "Gehenna" shouldn't be translated that way even though it isn't a grave.

BTW the smell of Hell is sulphur.

 

[AK4]

As you ought to well know, translators take a word in one language and try to find a matching word in another language. Sometimes this doesn't work because there is no word to translate to as in the word "Paraclete" which is translated many ways because english doesn't have one word that fits. Semitic lands don't have caves that go down to where it gets hot so they don't have a word for it. The Greek "Hades" and English "Hell" describe such places because those lands have the caves.

The greek hades was the realm of the dead. There is no word that means or has anything to do with being tortured for all eternity in fire.

The modern English word Hell is derived from Old English hel, helle (about 725 AD to refer to a nether world of the dead) reaching into the Anglo-Saxon pagan period, and ultimately from Proto-Germanic *halja, meaning "one who covers up or hides something".[3] The word has cognates in related Germanic languages such as Old Frisian helle, hille, Old Saxon hellja, Middle Dutch helle (modern Dutch hel), Old High German helle (Modern German Hölle), Norwegian and Swedish helvete (hel + Old Norse vitti, "punishment"), and Gothic halja[3]. Subsequently, the word was used to transfer a pagan concept to Christian theology and its vocabulary[3] (however, for the Judeo-Christian origin of the concept see Gehenna).

wikipedia

Notice even wikipedia knows the meaning for the english word hell was used to transfer a PAGAN concept to christian theology. A pagan concept. Shouldnt that throw up a red flag to anyone? Hell was used back then to mean "to conceal or hide" as in placing your potatoes in the ground (hell). It had nothing to do with what christians dubb as hell--eternal torment.

There is NO Scriptural or rational reason for translating the Hebrew word sheol into the English word "hell" at all—NONE! And there surely is no reason to use the word hell in light of the fact that the Old English meaning of this word has been grossly perverted by the Christian church beyond recognition over the past four centuries. Let’s look at our definitions once more:
The "hell" as the English used it in everyday life in the 1600’s:

Webster’s Twentieth Century Dictionary: "hell, n. [ME, helle; AS, hell, hell, from helan, to cover, conceal.]"
​

The "hell" of the 21st Century:

The American Heritage Collegiate Dictionary: "The abode of condemned souls and devils...the place of eternal punishment for the wicked after death, presided over by Satan…a state of separation from God…a place of evil, misery, discord, or destruction …torment, anguish."
​

However any reference to a fiery place such as "Gehenna " could be an attempt to put in Hebrew the concept of the fiery place known as Hell.

There was no hebrew concept of hell. Hell is a christian hoax. Gehenna was used as a reference to Christs judgments on His elect. Notice its His disciples He was talking to when this was said and they are ALIVE when this judgment is taking place. Hells concept is the dead are somehow ALIVE, with thoughts, conscienceness, and rememberance etc etc. The Word speaks of the realm of the dead as noone is ALIVE, no thoughts conscienceness, rememberance, no nothing "let them be silent in death" as the scriptures say (paraphrased).

BTW the smell of Hell is sulphur.

Using that rationale i could say unicorns smells like aliens

 

[AK4]

Doesn't Matthew (20:28 B) say Jesus gave his life as a ransom for 'many' ?

Jesus died for all, but 'all' do not accept him such as those that commit the unforgivable sin of Matthew 12:32 and Hebrews 6:4-6.

If you really wanted to know what could be the unforgivable sin, if there was one, its this damnable heresy, most vile and sick belief in an eternal torture of hell. This belief is directly attacking the character of an all loving God. Its sick and probably the biggest sin humanity as ever thought up. Notice its humanity not God.

 

[mickiel]

BTW the smell of Hell is sulphur.

Its so hard to believe that some are so confused about this hell place, that they think it even has a smell to it.

Peace.

 

[Quiddity]

The greek hades was the realm of the dead. There is no word that means or has anything to do with being tortured for all eternity in fire.

wikipedia

Notice even wikipedia knows the meaning for the english word hell was used to transfer a PAGAN concept to christian theology. A pagan concept. Shouldnt that throw up a red flag to anyone? Hell was used back then to mean "to conceal or hide" as in placing your potatoes in the ground (hell). It had nothing to do with what christians dubb as hell--eternal torment.

There is NO Scriptural or rational reason for translating the Hebrew word sheol into the English word "hell" at all—NONE! And there surely is no reason to use the word hell in light of the fact that the Old English meaning of this word has been grossly perverted by the Christian church beyond recognition over the past four centuries. Let’s look at our definitions once more:
The "hell" as the English used it in everyday life in the 1600’s:

Webster’s Twentieth Century Dictionary: "hell, n. [ME, helle; AS, hell, hell, from helan, to cover, conceal.]"
​

The "hell" of the 21st Century:

The American Heritage Collegiate Dictionary: "The abode of condemned souls and devils...the place of eternal punishment for the wicked after death, presided over by Satan…a state of separation from God…a place of evil, misery, discord, or destruction …torment, anguish."
​

There was no hebrew concept of hell. Hell is a christian hoax. Gehenna was used as a reference to Christs judgments on His elect. Notice its His disciples He was talking to when this was said and they are ALIVE when this judgment is taking place. Hells concept is the dead are somehow ALIVE, with thoughts, conscienceness, and rememberance etc etc. The Word speaks of the realm of the dead as noone is ALIVE, no thoughts conscienceness, rememberance, no nothing "let them be silent in death" as the scriptures say (paraphrased).



Using that rationale i could say unicorns smells like aliens

I wrote about this some time back:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/66701-concept-hell-western-religions.html

 

[AK4]

I wrote about this some time back:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/66701-concept-hell-western-religions.html

"Sheol" can be said to be the same actual place but the difference is in how the person experiences this place.

Interesting piece, but you say a person experiences this place. The scriptures never allude to any experience of anything in death. the scriptures say when youre dead youre dead. Nothing more nothing less. You dont experience or remember or think anything because youre dead. Purgatory is unscriptural too.

Psalms 6:5 - For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave [hebrew: sheol] who shall give thee thanks (8686)?

If there is no remembrance in death and when in death you are in sheol theres no room for purgatory or hell.

 

[AK4]

Its so hard to believe that some are so confused about this hell place, that they think it even has a smell to it.

Peace.

Amen. Heck, i wonder if they can smell santa claus and the easter bunny too. lol

 

[Quiddity]

Interesting piece, but you say a person experiences this place. The scriptures never allude to any experience of anything in death. the scriptures say when youre dead youre dead. Nothing more nothing less. You dont experience or remember or think anything because youre dead. Purgatory is unscriptural too.

Psalms 6:5 - For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave [hebrew: sheol] who shall give thee thanks (8686)?

If there is no remembrance in death and when in death you are in sheol theres no room for purgatory or hell.

Pfff...alright man. You have a peachy day. Not really in the mood to go any further then what I already did.

 

[AK4]

Pfff...alright man. You have a peachy day. Not really in the mood to go any further then what I already did.

Your not blowing me off, you are blowing off what the scriptures say. But oh well you have a peachy day too.

 

[Quiddity]

Your not blowing me off, you are blowing off what the scriptures say. But oh well you have a peachy day too.

Yes, I know, the scriptures are so clear that 30,000 plus denominations have come from it. Interpretational chaos at its finest.

 

[AK4]

Yes, I know, the scriptures are so clear that 30,000 plus denominations have come from it. Interpretational chaos at its finest.

Yes the scriptures are clear. Its mans doctrines and reasonings that fog everything up. Also some bad translations of scriptures. Theres 30,000 plus denominations because the blind sheep fail to thoroughly question what their "ministers of righteousness" and what they teach.