The Situation in Egypt

[Kathryn]

Perspective, perspective, perspective. Just as I was "poor" and yet "rich" at the same time, Egypt has been "secular, free, and prosperous" and "extreme, oppressed, and poverty stricken" simultaneously.

Some interesting facts about Egypt (and fair warning - I am going to post these in several threads because they are relevant):

Since implementing relevant pro-business economic reforms, the modern Egyptian economy has become one of the fastest growing among emerging markets. In contrast to a low of 3.2 percent in the 2002-2003 fiscal years, Egypt experienced GDP growth of 7.2 percent for the third year in a row till the first quarter of 2009.

Growth has been broad-based across manufacturing, the hydrocarbon sector, construction, services, tourism and agriculture, with the main drivers being private consumption and investment supported by relatively large inflows of FDI.

Since 2005, Egypt's annual GDP growth rates have outpaced averages for the newly industrialized Asian economies and the entire Middle East.

International Recognition

• Egypt was named the top regional reformer for 2009 and in the top ten globally in the annual World Bank publication Doing Business.
• H.E. Mahmoud Mohieldin, the Minister of Investment in Egypt since 2004, was nominated a Young Global Leader of the World Economic Forum and a member of the Commission on Growth and Development in 2005.

65 percent of the modern Egyptian banking sector has been privatized.

Job Creation

• Egypt's work force - at 24.8 million people - is the largest among Arab countries and the third largest in the Middle East and North African region.
• Egypt's economic liberalization policies have led to a significant increase in investments, which has brought down unemployment in Egypt from 11.8 percent in 2005 to 8.6 percent in 2008.

Import/Export

• The Minister of Trade and Industry, Rashid Mohamed Rashid, has taken an active role in encouraging export-oriented manufacturing. Under his watch, export revenues have increased by 50 percent.
• In the past five years, the government has negotiated free-trade agreements and preferential trading arrangements with Arab States (Pan Arab Free Trade Area), COMESA (East and Southern Africa), the EU (Partnership Agreement) and Turkey.
• Modern Egypt has an open and flourishing stock market that ranks number two in the entire Middle East region, second only to Bahrain.
• Egypt continues to receive significant levels of foreign direct investment (FDI). Its FDI reached nearly $20 billion in 2008, a 40 percent increase over the previous year.

The Socio-Economic Returns of Reform

Rising Human Development

Between 1980 and 2007 Egypt’s Human Development Index (HDI) rose 42%. The HDI is a measure of development progress based on health, education and income. This level of growth is among the tenth largest worldwide tied with Pakistan.

• Egypt’s average annual HDI growth was 10th fastest worldwide and almost double the global average.

Improved Economic Performance

Since the launch of the Economic Reform program in 2005, Egypt has sustained and broad based growth in all sectors of the economy; achievements that have been recognized by the international community most notably in the World Bank’s Annual Doing business report where Egypt has been designated as a top global reformer for the fourth year in a row.

• This sustained economic development has allowed the Government to increase tax revenues by 67% while reducing overall tax rates by half.
• This increase in tax revenue has also allowe the governent to nearly double social spening in the national budget in the same period
• Most importantly, the Egyptian economy has been able to create 3.4 Million jobs between 2005/2006 & 2008/2009

Reducing Poverty and Inequality

• The Government of Egypt’s reform program has paid off for all Egyptians. Between 2005 & 2008 Poverty, as defined by those living under $2/day, fell over 11%
• The reform program has not achieved growth at the expense of a growing gap between rich and poor in Egypt. In fact the Gini Index, the international measure of wealth inequality, actually fell 7% between 1999 & 2007.
• Further evidence of this, is that the share of the poorest 10% in national income rose 5% and the share of richest 10% feel 6% in the same period. The ratio of the wealth of the richest to the poorest 10% also fell 10%. All of which indicates a more just distribution of wealth.
• Nonetheless, the Government is committed enhancing the social returns of reform through improved targeting of social programs

The government is focusing on reducing the number of Egyptians living in poverty. Its aggressive goal is to decrease the number of citizens that fall at or below the poverty line by 50 percent within the next 6 years; from its current 19 percent to 8 percent by 2015.

• The percentage of women registered for voting increased from 18 percent in 1986 to 39.8 percent in 2007;
• In 2003, a woman was made a justice on the Supreme Constitutional Court by presidential decree, officially making her the country's first-ever female judge;
• In 2007, 30 women were appointed as judges presiding over family courts;
• Recently, Egypt's parliament passed a law allocating a quota of 64 seats in the lower house to women, thus giving women more than 12 percent of the seats in an expanded parliament after the next election in 2010. In comparison, women make up 17 percent of the U.S. Congress. Conversely, Egypt's neighbors do not have female representation of that level: women make up 8 percent of Kuwait's parliament and hold 2 percent of the parliament seats in Lebanon;
• 25.7% of top management positions in the state are held by women
• The proportion of women holding public office increased from 7 percent in 1988 to 23.5 percent in 2003.
• The first woman cabinet minister was appointed in 1962. Ever since, women have been assigned at least one or two portfolios in each cabinet. Currently, three women serve in the cabinet: Minister of Manpower and Immigration Aisha Abdel-Hady Abdel-Ghany, Minister of International Cooperation Fayza Abul Naga and Minister of State for Family and Population Mosheera Mahmoud Khattab.
• In 2008, Egypt became the first country in the Muslim World to appoint a female wedding officer (Maazun) to undertake Muslim marriage procedures.

Women and Education

• Women account for 49 percent of students enrolled in universities and higher education institutions;
• Total enrollment rate of females in all the stages of pre-university education showed higher levels than those for male enrollment in 2004-2005;
• In the middle of the 20th century, Cairo's al-Azhar University, the second oldest university in the world still in operation, underwent a series of reforms that led to, amongst other things, the opening of a women's college.

Women's Health

• Egypt has succeeded in achieving significant reduction in the maternal mortality ratio, mortality rates have declined from 84 per thousand in 2000 to 62.7 per thousand in 2006.
• In 2001, the Ministry of Health and Population in collaboration with USAID started implementing a National Maternal Mortality Surveillance System (NMMSS);
• There was a significant increase in the proportions of mothers assisted at delivery by medical provider - from 61.5 percent in 2000 to 78.6 percent in 2006;
• There was also a significant increase in the proportions of women who delivered in health facilities - from 48.2 percent in 2000 to 64.6 percent in 2005;
• The contraceptive prevalence rate has shown an increasing trend over time: from 47.6 percent in 1991 to 56.1 percent in 2000 then to 59.2 percent in 2005;
• The percentage of women who gave birth at an age younger than 18 decreased from 23.7 in 1992 to 20.4 in 2000 then to 15.8 in 2005.

Egypt is ranked fourth for freedom of the press out of nineteen countries in Middle East and North Africa.



Egypt News, Egypt Current Events, Modern Egyptian Society, Egyptian Tourism | Modern Egypt Info

 

[Alceste]

By all means. as long as they do it as normal human beings, as God intended. using their heads. doing it legally if you will.

Caladan, criticizing the government is illegal in Egypt. If they want change, they have no option but "illegal" protest. And they'd damn well better succeed, too, or they will very likely be arrested and tortured to death.

I've travelled Egypt, more than one time. the last time was last year. in which for the first time I travelled all the way from Cairo to Aswan and Southern Egypt near Sudan. I've observed all the poverty, all the simple agriculture methods, all the poor towns and villages, I roamed them, and asked any possible question of economy I could think of from my Egyptian tour guide.

That doesn't seem to be making it any more likely that you're at some point going to put forth a coherent, fact-based and rational point on the subject.

I've traveled too, and I've chatted with my tour guides. I try to resist the ego's beguiling invitation to consider myself an expert on every country I've ever been to. (Certainly your average Guatemalan tour guide knows more about Guatemala than your average BC hippie, but still not as much as I have learned by reading up on the history and political realities of Guatemala, particularly since a decent education is difficult to come by in some countries.)

I think I realize the situation in Egypt more than people who encourage a mob.

Mubarak rose to power as commander of the Egyptian Air Force during the 1973 Arab-Israeli war. this has been by far the worst war for the Israeli Air Force. the simple tactics took down Israeli pilots from the skies in numbers we are not used to.
When he was serving as a vice president, Mubarak witnessed the assassination of Egyptian president Sadat in the early 80s, Sadat was assassinated by Islamic radicals who served in the Egyptian army.
Mubarak took his lessons very well from the threat of radical Islamists.
His economic reforms which have began about 7 years ago achieved outstanding results, as the GDP of Egypt more than doubled itself in only 4 years. the economy was progressing very nicely.

Obviously this is not the case. An economy that "progresses nicely" for a few presidential loyalists while homeless men sleep ten to a stall in the marketplace (ref: "An Idiot Abroad" ) is not "progressing nicely" overall. Simplistic measures such as GDP are meaningless as a measure of domestic stability, since they can theoretically show improvement if only one single person in any given country has all the wealth and everybody else has none.

the troubles we see now in Egypt is because of the poor people who do not benefit from this progress. the gap between the poor and the rich if you will.
however, idealizing the whole concept is tiring. look at many other nations, the gap between the rich and the poor is almost a standard problem.

Yes, this is true, and this is the exactly sort of domestic disorder all of these countries (including the US and the UK) can and should expect when the situation becomes unbearable for a critical mass of poor people or the government is not seen to be responsive to their needs.

The price of food this year is causing a rapid crossover from "irritating" to "unbearable" in countries with a yawning rich-poor gap for people in countries like Egypt. People in Egypt spend an average of 40% of their income on food already, and in many repressive client states of the West it's closer to 60%. In such countries there is no margin for absorbing such price increases. The only option besides starvation is open rebellion.

Its not a reason for people to go Commandos instead of puking blood in their wheat field, so that their little daughter can study in a university in Cairo one day.
now that's a long term planning. going out to the streets and venting your anger like a medieval mob.

Freedom of assembly is a basic human right, political freedom and civil liberty. Your bewildering contempt for the protesters is noted and dismissed.

Funny you say that. because while initially Egypt was shunned down by the Arab league and Arab powers for its treaty with Israel. the Arab league and nations came to terms with it and accepted Egypt back into the club.
the fact that a Canadian citizen is frowning on cooperation between two Mid eastern nations, Israel and Egypt, and their efforts and abilities to work with the Americans are irrelevant for clear thinking Egyptians and Israelis, who are thousands of miles away. I am more interested by what the Arab league has to say.

Like most Egyptians, I'm frowning on Egypt's willing participation in the illegal collective punishment of Gazans. I'm all for cooperation between any nation and any other when the objectives they are working to achieve have merit. Israel's objectives in Palestine (apartheid, collective punishment and the expansion of Jewish settlements) have no merit at all and decrease the long-term likelihood of peace and stability in the region.

 

[Alceste]

Kathryn, please find a neutral source (i.e. one that is not an Egyptian government PR website), especially if you're going to copy and paste their claims on several threads.

 

[Crosis]

[youtube]BbPtt6802s4[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbPtt6802s4

 

[Alceste]

[youtube]BbPtt6802s4[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbPtt6802s4

The more of this sort of stuff I watch, the more I begin to feel like I'm living in a futuristic dystopian sci-fi novel.

I couldn't shake the impression that all those narrators read like students in a grade school English class. It made me giggle with a sort of warm, scholastic nostalgia. They need to find a narrator who sounds a little more excited, or at least interested.

 

[Crosis]

Alceste I couldn't shake the impression that all those narrators read like students in a grade school English class. It made me giggle with a sort of warm, scholastic nostalgia. They need to find a narrator who sounds a little more excited, or at least interested.

yes i had a hard time with the narrators and you nailed right on. i think one person as a narrator would of been fine but three to much. i wish they would use Roxanne more. what did you think of the three questions at the end

 

[Alceste]

yes i had a hard time with the narrators and you nailed right on. i think one person as a narrator would of been fine but three to much. i wish they would use Roxanne more. what did you think of the three questions at the end

I didn't catch them. What were they? The droning of that last narrator made me tune out the first time. I even went back to try to catch them again and tuned out again.

 

[Bismillah]

Alceste, I've posted several neutral sites over the course of this thread. Here is one

Living standards in Egypt are low by international standards, and have declined consistently since 1990. According to United Nations figures, some 20 to 30 percent of the population live below the poverty line. [This figure is now acknowledged to be closer to 40%] Despite widespread poverty, however, uneven development has led to the emergence of an affluent class that controls most of the country's wealth and enjoys an elevated standard of living that includes shopping at centers that feature the best imported goods. Living in such Cairo suburbs as Garden City, al-Zamalek, and Nasr New City, the wealthy send their children to private schools and to universities abroad. Yet not far from these affluent neighborhoods, a significant number of poor Egyptians live in squalor, with poor and overcrowded housing, limited food supply, and inadequate access to clean water, good quality health care, or education. The extremes are reflected in the country's distribution of income: in 1996, the wealthiest 20 percent of Egyptians controlled 39 percent of the country's wealth, while the poorest 20 percent controlled only 9.8 percent of wealth.

almost one-half of economic and social establishments in the country are based in the northern cities of Cairo and Alexandria. This uneven development has fueled a cycle of rural-urban migration from south to north that has only started to abate since the mid-1990s. Migration has only served to aggravate the state of underdevelopment prevailing in the south

The economic reforms launched by the Egyptian government in the early 1990s have been double-edged, severely affecting the lower classes and threatening to further erode popular support for the government. Both the rural and urban poor have suffered from the long decline in the quality of social services provided to Egyptians. A lack of adequate resources for schools and hospitals has meant that these services have declined in quality over the years.

As a result of high inflation, which, at its peak, reached 28.5 percent in 1989, the middle and lower classes have seen their living standards erode since the 1980s. The problem has been compounded by the government's reduction of subsidies on basic foodstuffs and certain budget controls on public services since 1991.

Egypt Poverty and wealth, Information about Poverty and wealth in Egypt

It's not a matter of perspective, it's look at the situation as a whole instead of compartmentalizing the situation. Undoubtedly there have been some Egyptians who have benefited greatly from Mubarak's policy reforms.

However, the vast majority live destitute lives and have come to depend on more trustworthy means, such as the charities run by the MB, rather than the government's own social services. There are always some who prosper at the expense of the rest, however their presence does not and cannot justify a tyrannical rule such as Mubarak's.

Like I have stated before an autocratic regime is not enough to garner protest. Look at Syria, the difference between the two is that Syrians love their state who have managed to, independently, take care of and improve their lives, similar to Iran's situation.

When I look at Caladan's posts I first of all take into account his nationality and the obvious impact it has on his reasoning because he has taken the same stance as Israel's own policy on these protests. I know that he, as an Israeli, is looking out for his country's own needs, which keep in mind isn't unethical in any way. I just know to never mix up where exactly Caladan's motives lie and to not confuse them in any way as being representative of the interests of the Egyptian people themselves.

 

[Bismillah]

Here are some disturbing articles:

Egyptian authorities forced Vodafone to broadcast pro-government text messages during the protests that have rocked the country, the U.K.-based mobile company said Thursday.

A text message received Sunday by an Associated Press reporter in Egypt appealed to the country's "honest and loyal men to confront the traitors and criminals and protect our people and honor." Another urged Egyptians to attend a pro-Mubarak rally in Cairo on Wednesday. The first was marked as coming from "Vodafone." The other was signed: "Egypt Lovers."

Vodafone said the texts had been sent "since the start of the protests," which kicked off more than a week ago. Vodafone did not immediately return an e-mail asking why the company waited nearly 10 days to complain publicly. Its statement was released only after repeated inquiries by the AP.

Vodafone: Egypt forced us to send text messages - Yahoo! News

Here is a very tragic video of an Egyptian diplomatic car running over 20+ people, please keep in mind the images are very disturbing.

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

Some more videos of police cars barreling through crowds and running over protestors

[youtube]PsPBA-bEuEQ&start=40[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsPBA-bEuEQ#t=40s

Videos Posted by R.N.N |

So who are the medieval mob and who are the rightful defenders of the state again? Disgusting.

 

[Alceste]

Thanks for the info, Abibi. Yes, those reports are disturbing, as is the ongoing round-up of foreign journalists.

Fingers crossed for the "day of farewell" tomorrow. Hope things improve soon.

 

[Sahar]

Abibi, I was going to post the videos but you did that job very well...I don't know what to call these animals.
Please beware of what's happening here by the criminal regime and its thugs. The internet was shut down for a week, after its immediate return; the websites and facebook pages became full of anti-protests, pro-Mubarak users, messages and groups. They used that time to infiltrate the internet websites and groups for their propaganda. Of course Mubarak speech was a part of that tactic, after which they connected us with the internet. The Egyptian media is now controlled by thugs of the regime who propagate "conspiracy plots" that those who started this uprising are not Egyptians and are trained by the Jews and the US. They sent thugs and criminals to kill the honored youth in Tahrir Sqaure. Now, the criminal authorities banned the international media to work and convey the events and they managed to defame independent media like Al-Jazeera and even hackers could penetrate its advertising page and made a banner that says "Together to overthrow Egypt" and Al-Jazeera have just made a headline about the hackers: الأخبAl-Jazeera

The conclusion: they managed to use the same methods that the youth used; to fight the revolution in addition to their thugs and criminals...they managed to divide the Egyptian population who indeed have been fooled by their propaganda and who believed that the demonstrations only lead to chaos and instability and today I fully believe it will be their peak of tactics to end the revolution after they banned the international media to convey the events from the ground live. Mostly the Egyptian media will say that those who protested against Mubarak are only 5 thousands especially with weakening the international media and by this they will claim there is no one supporting the change.
I swear by God, those who have spent their last days in Tahrir Sqaure and are stil there now are the real Egyptians, are the noble people who indeed are standing firmly in fighting against a wide-scale organized terrorism. And I am really afraid they are going to massacre them more and massacre the entire revolution.

 

[Alceste]

Did Olberman get his face done and get a job at Fox or what?

[youtube]OsUhsLp2mfM[/youtube]

 

[Alceste]

Abibi, I was going to post the videos but you did that job very well...I don't know what to call these animals.
Please beware of what's happening here by the criminal regime and its thugs. The internet was shut down for a week, after its immediate return; the websites and facebook pages became full of anti-protests, pro-Mubarak users, messages and groups. They used that time to infiltrate the internet websites and groups for their propaganda. Of course Mubarak speech was a part of that tactic, after which they connected us with the internet. The Egyptian media is now controlled by thugs of the regime who propagate "conspiracy plots" that those who started this uprising are not Egyptians and are trained by the Jews and the US. They sent thugs and criminals to kill the honored youth in Tahrir Sqaure. Now, the criminal authorities banned the international media to work and convey the events and they managed to defame independent media like Al-Jazeera and even hackers could penetrate its advertising page and made a banner that says "Together to overthrow Egypt" and Al-Jazeera have just made a headline about the hackers: الأخبAl-Jazeera

The conclusion: they managed to use the same methods that the youth used; to fight the revolution in addition to their thugs and criminals...they managed to divide the Egyptian population who indeed have been fooled by their propaganda and who believed that the demonstrations only lead to chaos and instability and today I fully believe it will be their peak of tactics to end the revolution after they banned the international media to convey the events from the ground live. Mostly the Egyptian media will say that those who protested against Mubarak are only 5 thousands especially with weakening the international media and by this they will claim there is no one supporting the change.
I swear by God, those who have spent their last days in Tahrir Sqaure and are stil there now are the real Egyptians, are the noble people who indeed are standing firmly in fighting against a wide-scale organized terrorism. And I am really afraid they are going to massacre them more and massacre the entire revolution.

Don't worry about Mubarak controlling the message, Sahar. All eyes in the West are glued on Egypt. Despite the repression and hacking, loads of information is getting out. Also, Mubarak has made a fatal mistake having his thugs beat, harass and detain foreign journalists. There is no sympathy for him or belief in his side of the story anywhere.

 

[Kathryn]

Kathryn, please find a neutral source (i.e. one that is not an Egyptian government PR website), especially if you're going to copy and paste their claims on several threads.

Do you have any sources that suit you that contradict any of the items I posted? Be sure they're neutral.

I've been researching these issues for the past few days, and I've seen repeated references to the banking, media, and unemployment rates on all sorts of sites. I used the aforementioned website because those scattered facts were all in one place on that site.

If you can find contradictions, feel free to post the sources. Otherwise it looks like simply more dismissal of information that doesn't suit you.

 

[Kathryn]

By the way, I am not saying that I think reform is unnecessary in Egypt, or that I think Mubarak is a great guy. All I've tried to do is be as objective as possible in my research on this topic. I think I've made it very clear that I support the Egyptian people's quest for a more democratic system that betters more people.

We can't get a clear picture of the situation in Egypt if we refuse to look at the WHOLE picture. Part of that picture is that the standards of living - which include banking, education, women's rights, freedom of press - are higher in Egypt than in most of the surrounding countries.

Of COURSE - considering the poor standard of living in many countries in that region - that's not saying that Egypt can't improve dramatically.

It's simply putting it in perspective. Is that difficult to accept?

 

[Bismillah]

We can't get a clear picture of the situation in Egypt if we refuse to look at the WHOLE picture. Part of that picture is that the standards of living - which include banking, education, women's rights, freedom of press - are higher in Egypt than in most of the surrounding countries.

But that is a highly deceptive picture now isn't it? One could say that on one hand one social class benefits immensely whereas a much larger class of people are suffering economically and politically at a much higher cost and the services offered to them have been declining in quality for decades.

After all it is normally the poor who bear the brunt of cuts on subsidies and are usually the people advocating political change and then persecuted for it.

Those figures only strengthen the claim that Egyptians, economically, are highly polarized and that the motive for these protests is intrinsically tied with the economics of Egypt, not solely political ones.

 

[Kathryn]

Like I said, Abibi, I agree that Egypt needs reform and more democracy, and that Mubarak needs to step down. I will repeat though - they are many strides ahead of many ME countries when it comes to freedom of the press, womens' rights, education, etc.

 

[Bismillah]

Like I said, Abibi, I agree that Egypt needs reform and more democracy, and that Mubarak needs to step down. I will repeat though - they are many strides ahead of many ME countries when it comes to freedom of the press, womens' rights, education, etc.

Sure when you look at Algeria that has sufferred from throat raping village burning guerrillas and gang raping cold blooded security forces, poverty stricken Yemen, politically challenged Saudi Arabia, or just about any other country then Egypt can be said to be presented in a better light, but that is not the yardstick that we should measure by is it?

Regardless, this conversation seems to be bordering on a tangent so I'll just cut it short here.

 

[croak]

I remember when I visited Egypt, there were packs of kids roaming the streets of Cairo. Literally, kids and teenagers, with no adults in sight, sleeping right on the streets. You have sewage overflowing on the streets in some places. And then you have resorts with golf courses. Golf courses. Acres of green grass growing in the middle of the desert, for the pleasure of wealthy tourists. A police officer, standing in the boundary between lanes of traffic, urinating right then and there.

I'm sure our Egyptian posters know a lot more of what's wrong with Egypt; I was only there maybe two weeks. If I were an Egyptian, I would be right there on the streets.

Tahrir: Shock and awe Mubarak style - Opinion - Al Jazeera English If Al-Jazeera's journalists can't even use their names anymore for fear of retribution, you think the average Joe is going to be fine?

I say go on with the protests, because there's no turning back now.

 

[Alceste]

Do you have any sources that suit you that contradict any of the items I posted? Be sure they're neutral.

I've been researching these issues for the past few days, and I've seen repeated references to the banking, media, and unemployment rates on all sorts of sites. I used the aforementioned website because those scattered facts were all in one place on that site.

If you can find contradictions, feel free to post the sources. Otherwise it looks like simply more dismissal of information that doesn't suit you.

I didn't even bother to read the Egyptian government propaganda you posted, so I'm not equipped to give you a point by point, but generally speaking, there are neutral and credible NGOs that measure economic health, income disparity, human rights, poverty etc.

On the issue of human rights, including the rights of women, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of association, etc, try:
Reports about Egypt | Human Rights Watch

On the issue of political freedom, try:
Middle East and North Africa | Amnesty International Report 2010

On the issue of public health, try:
WHO | Egypt

On economic issues:
Egypt, Arab Rep. | Data

I'll leave it to you to check the Egyptian government's PR firm's factual claims. I am assuming that (as it usually goes with such things) they will be more or less accurate but cherry picked to present the most favorable possible view of Mubarak's regime. Issues where Mubarak performs very poorly such as civil rights, literacy, poverty etc probably will not be represented.