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The Situation in Egypt

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
On the issue of human rights, including the rights of women, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of association, etc, try:
Reports about Egypt | Human Rights Watch

On the issue of political freedom, try:
Middle East and North Africa | Amnesty International Report 2010

On the issue of public health, try:
WHO | Egypt

On economic issues:
Egypt, Arab Rep. | Data

I'll leave it to you to check the Egyptian government's PR firm's factual claims. I am assuming that (as it usually goes with such things) they will be more or less accurate but cherry picked to present the most favorable possible view of Mubarak's regime. Issues where Mubarak performs very poorly such as civil rights, literacy, poverty etc probably will not be represented.


I didn't even bother to read the Egyptian government propaganda you posted, so I'm not equipped to give you a point by point, but generally speaking, there are neutral and credible NGOs that measure economic health, income disparity, human rights, poverty etc.

So - you didn't even read what I posted, and yet you want to argue about it. SHEEZE.

'Nuff said.

I am not and have not argued that Egyupt is a paragon of virtue or human rights.

In the name of objectivity and fairness, though, I played devil's advocate (since no one other than Caladan seemed to be interested in the specifics of "the rest of the story") and presented OTHER facts - and they are facts. I checked them with other sources before posting them. And as I said before, I posted them from the site I used because they were all together on that site, rather than scattered.

Thanks for the links - but I had already been to most of them and done my homework.

It's best to listen to all sides before making a judgment.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
We can agree to disagree, Kathryn. From my perspective, the entire output of PR firms, whose raison d'etre is to use persuasive rhetorical tricks to manipulate and distort perceptions for the benefit of a paying customer (Mubarak, in this case), can be completely ignored with a net benefit to our understanding of "all sides" of any given issue. When they use facts at all, those facts are easily locatable elsewhere, usually in a more objective and realistic context. Any reasonable arguments they advance can easily be found being advanced (usually more convincingly) by people who genuinely hold those opinions rather than crafting them bespoke for pay.
 
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Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Egypt has a stable economy in the Middle East and North Africa enjoying continuous growth, averaging 4%–5% in the past quarter-century. The economy embarked on various stages of development during which the public and private sectors played roles varying in relative importance.
Economy of Egypt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Gross domestic product (GDP) per capita based on purchasing-power-parity (PPP) increased fourfold between 1981 and 2006, from US$ 1355 in 1981, to US$ 2525 in 1991, to US$ 3686 in 2001 and to an estimated US$ 4535 in 2006. Based on national currency, GDP per capita at constant 1999 prices increased from EGP 411 in 1981, to EGP 2098 in 1991, to EGP 5493 in 2001 and to EGP 8708 in 2006. Based on the current US$ prices, GDP per capita increased from US$ 587 in 1981, to US$ 869 in 1991, to US$ 1461 in 2001 and to an estimated US$ 1518 (which translates to less than US$ 130 per month) in 2006. According to the World Bank Country Classification, Egypt has been promoted from the low income category to lower middle income category.

There have been several favorable conditions that allowed the Central Bank of Egypt to accumulate net international reserves, which increased from US$ 20 billion in FY2005, to US$23 billion in FY2006, and to US$30 billion FY2007 contributing to growth in both reserve money and in broad money (M2).
Central Bank of Egypt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Egyptian information and communications sector has been growing significantly since it was separated from the transportation sector. The market for telecommunications market was officially deregulated since the beginning of 2006 according to the WTO agreement.

The Egyptian equity market is one of the most developed in the region with more than 633 listed companies. Market capitalization on the exchange doubled in 2005 from USD 47.2 billion to USD 93.5 billion, with turnover surging from USD 1.16 billion in January 2005 to USD 6 billion in January 2006.
Privatization in Egypt | Privatization program of Egypt | Egypt privatization

Significant improvement to the domestic economic environment increased investors' confidence in Egypt. The Cairo & Alexandria Stock Exchange is considered among the best ten emerging markets in the world. The changes to the policy also attracted increased levels of foreign direct investment in Egypt. According to the UN Conference on Trade and Development's World Investment Report, Egypt was ranked the second largest country in attracting foreign investment in Africa.

Poverty has a strong regional dimension in Egypt and concentrates in Upper Egypt region, both urban (18.6%) and rural( 39.1), while metropolitan areas are the least poor (5.7%).
Economy of Egypt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/eg.html

Egypt's infant mortality rate is 82nd in the world, which is better than some other countries in the area - Afghanistan, Pakistan, Western Sahara, Yemen, Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, Iran, Iraq, Tajikistan, Kyrgystan, and Algeria - But below that of Kazakhstan, Turkey, Uzbekistan, Libya, Tunisia, Gaza Strip, Lebanon, Oman, Jordan, and Syria, and Saudi Arabia.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...=af&rank=82#eg

Like I've said -REPEATEDLY - I am not defending Mubarak in any way. What I am trying to do is look at the situation from all angles - which includes looking at the negatives AND the positives of life in Egypt today.

In other words, putting some perspective on things. If we are going to support the overthrow of the Egyptian government - in word or in deed - we need to know what is being disgarded - and we need to know what is at risk.

How does life in Egypt compare to life in other countries in that part of the world? What's the trade off? How will the people of Egypt be impacted - short and long term? Are they going to be worse off or better off?

We can't determine this with any accuracy at all if we don't look at Egypt in context. We can't compare Egypt to a Western country - without comparing it to other countries in that region as well.
 

croak

Trickster
Wikipedia isn't the most respectable source. I don't disagree with the face value of what I read, though. However, growth in the economy doesn't automatically mean everyone benefits. In the case of Egypt, the majority haven't.

Egypt's infant mortality rate is 82nd in the world, which is better than some other countries in the area - Afghanistan, Pakistan, Western Sahara, Yemen, Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, Iran, Iraq, Tajikistan, Kyrgystan, and Algeria - But below that of Kazakhstan, Turkey, Uzbekistan, Libya, Tunisia, Gaza Strip, Lebanon, Oman, Jordan, and Syria, and Saudi Arabia.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...=af&rank=82#eg
That is... abysmal. If the Gaza Strip has lower mortality rates than Egypt, there is something seriously wrong.

Like I've said -REPEATEDLY - I am not defending Mubarak in any way. What I am trying to do is look at the situation from all angles - which includes looking at the negatives AND the positives of life in Egypt today.

In other words, putting some perspective on things. If we are going to support the overthrow of the Egyptian government - in word or in deed - we need to know what is being disgarded - and we need to know what is at risk.

How does life in Egypt compare to life in other countries in that part of the world? What's the trade off? How will the people of Egypt be impacted - short and long term? Are they going to be worse off or better off?

We can't determine this with any accuracy at all if we don't look at Egypt in context. We can't compare Egypt to a Western country - without comparing it to other countries in that region as well.
Short of Egypt possibly turning into another Iraq, I'd say Egyptians would be better off. If they were to take Lebanon's cue, a national unity government of sorts would be formed to take care of things until elections come around.
 

Rakhel

Well-Known Member
https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/eg.html

Egypt's infant mortality rate is 82nd in the world, which is better than some other countries in the area - Afghanistan, Pakistan, Western Sahara, Yemen, Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, Iran, Iraq, Tajikistan, Kyrgystan, and Algeria - But below that of Kazakhstan, Turkey, Uzbekistan, Libya, Tunisia, Gaza Strip, Lebanon, Oman, Jordan, and Syria, and Saudi Arabia.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...=af&rank=82#eg
You sited the CIA?:eek: Now you know Alceste isn't going to take that site as trustworthy.
I can just hear it..."The CIA website is much worse than even MediaWatch."
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
So - now we can't use Wikipedia or the CIA as sources? Good grief, at least I SOURCE my information - and at least I am specific about issues and disagreements.

I guess the new modus operandum is this:

If I can't dispute the information, I'll just dispute the source.
 

Rakhel

Well-Known Member
So - now we can't use Wikipedia or the CIA as sources? Good grief, at least I SOURCE my information - and at least I am specific about issues and disagreements.

I guess the new modus operandum is this:

If I can't dispute the information, I'll just dispute the source.
You have been siting source upon source upon source, and none of them were "respectably neutral" enough.
I give you credit for going to the depth you did. You have more patience than I.
 

croak

Trickster
So - now we can't use Wikipedia or the CIA as sources? Good grief, at least I SOURCE my information - and at least I am specific about issues and disagreements.

I guess the new modus operandum is this:

If I can't dispute the information, I'll just dispute the source.
I never said you couldn't use Wikipedia. The odds are the content is backed by listed sources at the bottom of the page for those who want to fact-check. However, since it is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit, it can have false information. I did remark about the actual substance of the quotes regardless.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
You sited the CIA?:eek: Now you know Alceste isn't going to take that site as trustworthy.
I can just hear it..."The CIA website is much worse than even MediaWatch."

Lol, actually, Rakhel, I think you'll find the CIA fact book is a more credible source than your average ad agency. It gets a pass, generally speaking.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
You have been siting source upon source upon source, and none of them were "respectably neutral" enough.
I give you credit for going to the depth you did. You have more patience than I.

That's retarded. She quoted ONE source before her last post. It was a PR website for the Egyptian government. I'm sure you find the PR industry terrifically credible yourself, but some of us have standards: we don't trawl for Crest ads on youtube to find out whether or not it is recommended by dentists.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I never said you couldn't use Wikipedia. The odds are the content is backed by listed sources at the bottom of the page for those who want to fact-check. However, since it is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit, it can have false information. I did remark about the actual substance of the quotes regardless.

Croak, I'm sorry - you seem to have gotten a bit caught up in an ongoing discussion between Alceste and myself spanning several threads.

My comment wasn't aimed at you - you just caught some flak. :slap:
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
We can agree to disagree, Kathryn.

Just what, specifically, are we disagreeing on, Alceste?

Regarding my post which listed some of the positives about Egypt, either on this thread or another similar one, you clearly stated that you didn't even bother to READ the information I posted. Your only complaint was regarding the source.

You know what - I'm a Christian, but I'm not so narrow minded that I don't realize that there is truth in a wide variety of religions. I'd be an idiot if I disgarded truths just because a Buddhist or a Muslim source listed them as truths.

Same with this topic. You won't even look at the SUBJECT MATTER because you don't like the SOURCE. You use this same excuse across this forum - and basically sideline the discussion with your demands for sources which suit your fancy.

Please list the information in my original post which you think is inaccurate. Then back it up with sources - ANY sources you like.

Of course, that means you'll actually have to go back and read my post.

Anyway, when you do that, we can have a meaningful discussion. But otherwise, I'm done with this particularly meaningless jabberwocky side conversation on an otherwise important topic - the future of Egypt and it's people.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.

Wikipedia isn't the most respectable source. I don't disagree with the face value of what I read, though. However, growth in the economy doesn't automatically mean everyone benefits. In the case of Egypt, the majority haven't.

I realize that Wiki has it's flaws. I was merely trying to placate Alceste with as neutral a source as I could find. Wiki is basically pablum, but as you stated, most of the sources are clearly defined, as they are in the article on the economy of Egypt.

I'm not defending Mubarak or any corrupt system in Egypt. All I'm trying to do is put Egypt in perspective, among other countries in that region.

Egypt's wealth is not evenly distributed. Show me an Arab country with evenly distributed wealth - PLEASE. (And I don't mean one in which everyone is wretchedly poor - those don't count!)

That is... abysmal. If the Gaza Strip has lower mortality rates than Egypt, there is something seriously wrong.

I agree - but in several other sources I've posted over several threads, Egypt has reduced it's infant and maternal mortality rate SIGNIFICANTLY over the past couple of decades. Impressively so, in fact. Yes, they have great room for improvement - and I hope the people of Egypt continue to make strides in that area.

Short of Egypt possibly turning into another Iraq, I'd say Egyptians would be better off. If they were to take Lebanon's cue, a national unity government of sorts would be formed to take care of things until elections come around

Ahhh, sweet Levant - that paragon of peace.

Lebanon teeters on the verge of internal explosion constantly. Civil war, assasinations, and revolution have dominated that beautiful country for at least 25 years.

BBC News - Lebanon country profile

I personally hope for better for the Egyptian people.

Mubarak's time is past. He's abused the trust and hope that others have placed in him. His regime is heavy handed and needs to be disbanded.

All I'm saying is that change needs to be made carefully and judiciously - not emotionally and chaotically. In order to make the best decisions, one must take all facets of a situation into consideration.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I think the footage of the guys rushing in on camels is totally surreal.
 

Primordial Annihilator

Well-Known Member
We could do with some of that in the UK.

I am sick of the coalition and the entire parlimentary system which primarily serves the interests of an elitist public schoolboy social order, in the past at least old Labour had it's roots in the working classes and had representatives far removed from the sycophantic upper middle classes of Eton and Oxbridge..
 

Sahar

Well-Known Member
President Hosni Mubarak's family fortune could be as much as $70bn (£43.5bn) according to analysis by Middle East experts, with much of his wealth in British and Swiss banks or tied up in real estate in London, New York, Los Angeles and along expensive tracts of the Red Sea coast.
World news | guardian.co.uk

He is immersed in his wealth and around 40% of his people live below the poverty line!!
 

Sahar

Well-Known Member
Egyptians are funny even in their tough time: young (armless) Egyptian protesters trying to protect their heads against the attacks on them:

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