The "something can't come from nothing" argument

[SkepticThinker]

That posts was not tailored to apply to you. I responded to your same contentions in a post to you. I am waiting your response before going in deeper down the NDE rabbit hole. I am currently on my way out. I will see if you want to dig into Reynolds case specifically, tomorrow, and then do so if you wish.

Okay sorry. Yes I do.

Have a nice evening.

 

[Thief]

Well is not really an argument. A solution is not valid because it is convenient or meets a need. It is valid because of things like having a true premise, and a conclusion that logically follows. I may be left without many things I want to have but that is not an argument they must exist.

So....with an answer in hand and it cannot be proven....
It would be an answer of convenience.

I am willing to assume there is a God.
I do so for good reasons.

It will prove to be less than convenient as we stand before Judgment.

 

[Robert.Evans]

So you understand what everything is?........................?

Soon to have a Noble Prize no doubt.
Got equation?
hehehehehhe.

haha... should I graciously accept? Perhaps not.

There is only One thing, that is the Source of all things. We may call that God. But that is all there is. We see it in different forms. How can there be more than one thing? Where would it come from?

 

[Aman777]

haha... should I graciously accept? Perhaps not.

There is only One thing, that is the Source of all things. We may call that God. But that is all there is. We see it in different forms. How can there be more than one thing? Where would it come from?

Dear Robert, The above shows insight into Love, which existed BEFORE anything physical was made. In the end, God/Love will finally destroy Death, 1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.and His Creation will finally be brought to perfection. God bless you.

In Love,
Aman

 

[1robin]

Okay sorry. Yes I do.

Have a nice evening.

Sorry, I didn't get to this thread until just now. Pam Reynolds it is, but right now I have a non atlas module a static digital word generator that I can't beat into submission. I almost set of the sprinkler system off on purpose to blow up this stupid test set. It will have to be tomorrow.

 

[1robin]

So....with an answer in hand and it cannot be proven....
It would be an answer of convenience.

I am willing to assume there is a God.
I do so for good reasons.

It will prove to be less than convenient as we stand before Judgment.

With all the humility I can muster a faith held by default is of no use. Simply having a default position on faith will not meet Christ's demands. You must be born again. You can get most of the way to God by study but that last infinite mile is all supernatural and comes with conformational proof. I debate as if God is a hypothesis but personally he is a known reality. If I can help I would be happy to. That is not a moral argument, you may be twice the moral person I am. It is a theological position or status claim. Nicodemus was an honest and moral man. When asked Christ said he could not even enter the kingdom until he was born again. If I have misjudged your faith I apologize. I have limited access to any poster and have to make due.

 

[Thief]

With all the humility I can muster a faith held by default is of no use. Simply having a default position on faith will not meet Christ's demands. You must be born again. You can get most of the way to God by study but that last infinite mile is all supernatural and comes with conformational proof. I debate as if God is a hypothesis but personally he is a known reality. If I can help I would be happy to. That is not a moral argument, you may be twice the moral person I am. It is a theological position or status claim. Nicodemus was an honest and moral man. When asked Christ said he could not even enter the kingdom until he was born again. If I have misjudged your faith I apologize. I have limited access to any poster and have to make due.

Likewise.....

As for born again....
We are brought into this life naked and into the arms of someone who cares.

Born again?.....yes it must be so.
But will the angelic care?
You have no doubt seen my rendition about the fall of the angelic?

 

[Thief]

haha... should I graciously accept? Perhaps not.

There is only One thing, that is the Source of all things. We may call that God. But that is all there is. We see it in different forms. How can there be more than one thing? Where would it come from?

One God....yeah.
Where it came from?... is a question that cannot be applied.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Dear Robert, The above shows insight into Love, which existed BEFORE anything physical was made. In the end, God/Love will finally destroy Death, 1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.and His Creation will finally be brought to perfection. God bless you.

In Love,
Aman

I am not sure if I am being rebuked or not. I will choose not. I agree with what you said.

 

[Robert.Evans]

One God....yeah.
Where it came from?... is a question that cannot be applied.

It did not quite say that... (2nd part)

 

[Thief]

Where would it come from?

Here you are.

 

[1robin]

Likewise.....

As for born again....
We are brought into this life naked and into the arms of someone who cares.

We are born into this life estranged from our creator because of the fall and the rebellious nature we come into the world with.

Born again?.....yes it must be so.

Being born again is the event in which this estrangement is remedied and we are united with the God who we were born to interact with but previously could not. Intellectual consent to the proposition of faith is not good enough. We must be spiritually born and united with that God.

But will the angelic care?
You have no doubt seen my rendition about the fall of the angelic?

I do not know but I would imagine the angels rejoice when anyone is born again. The fallen angels are quite a mystery even to biblical scholars and I won't venture to guess at their reaction to a humans faith.

 

[Thief]

We are born into this life estranged from our creator because of the fall and the rebellious nature we come into the world with.

Being born again is the event in which this estrangement is remedied and we are united with the God who we were born to interact with but previously could not. Intellectual consent to the proposition of faith is not good enough. We must be spiritually born and united with that God.



I do not know but I would imagine the angels rejoice when anyone is born again. The fallen angels are quite a mystery even to biblical scholars and I won't venture to guess at their reaction to a humans faith.

so, you haven't seen my rendition on the fall of the angelic?

One third of heaven fell over an argument about something that looks like us.
Two thirds lost their brothers for that same argument....about us.

The ones who fell...would want us dead.
The two thirds that remain in heaven might no longer care.

I would venture a guess to their reaction.
Sword drawn.

Born again refers to the one that cares enough to bear you presence.
And the preamble of Job means nothing?

 

[1robin]

so, you haven't seen my rendition on the fall of the angelic?

One third of heaven fell over an argument about something that looks like us.
Two thirds lost their brothers for that same argument....about us.

The ones who fell...would want us dead.
The two thirds that remain in heaven might no longer care.

I would venture a guess to their reaction.
Sword drawn.

Born again refers to the one that cares enough to bear you presence.
And the preamble of Job means nothing?

Well I can't see any reason to haggle over angels but your understanding of born again is at least not biblical, and the bible is by far the primary resource on the subject. It says we must be born naturally (of water) and of the spirit. Only God can give us a spiritual birth and when you have it you know it. It is a supernatural event and left me walking around in shock for three days. It is the focal event of the bible, the reason Christ came, salvation, reconciliation, the moment we have assurance of heaven and God. Without it the bible is juts a good story. With it, it is the most important and profound truth in human history regardless of any angel's opinion on it.

Have you ever seen the movie prophecy? Your angelic "theory" sounds like that movies plot. Good movie, has Christopher Walken and Vigo in it, but it is lousy theology.

 

[Aman777]

I am not sure if I am being rebuked or not. I will choose not. I agree with what you said.

Dear Robert, I was agreeing with you too. God Bless you.

In Love,
Aman

 

[SkepticThinker]

Sorry, I didn't get to this thread until just now. Pam Reynolds it is, but right now I have a non atlas module a static digital word generator that I can't beat into submission. I almost set of the sprinkler system off on purpose to blow up this stupid test set. It will have to be tomorrow.

Okey dokey. Take your time.

That sounds ummm, frustrating, to say the least.

 

[1robin]

Okay sorry. Yes I do.

Have a nice evening.

This an opening shot in what appears to be a sea of information. At least it will get the ball rolling.

When all of Pam's vital signs were stopped, the doctor turned on a surgical saw and began to cut through Pam's skull. While this was going on, Pam reported that she felt herself "pop" outside her body and hover above the operating table. Then she watched the doctors working on her lifeless body for awhile. From her out-of-body position, she observed the doctor sawing into her skull with what looked to her like an electric toothbrush. Pam heard and reported later what the nurses in the operating room had said and exactly what was happening during the operation. At this time, every monitor attached to Pam's body registered "no life" whatsoever. At some point, Pam's consciousness floated out of the operating room and traveled down a tunnel which had a light at the end of it where her deceased relatives and friends were waiting including her long-dead grandmother. Pam's NDE ended when her deceased uncle led her back to her body for her to reentered it. Pam compared the feeling of reentering her dead body to "plunging into a pool of ice." The following is Pam Reynolds' account of her NDE in her own words.

For practical purposes outside the world of academic debate, three clinical tests commonly determine brain death. First, a standard electroencephalogram, or EEG, measures brain-wave activity. A "flat" EEG denotes non-function of the cerebral cortex - the outer shell of the cerebrum. Second, auditory evoked potentials, similar to those [clicks] elicited by the ear speakers in Pam's surgery, measure brain-stem viability. Absence of these potentials indicates non-function of the brain stem. And third, documentation of no blood flow to the brain is a marker for a generalized absence of brain function.


But during "standstill", Pam's brain was found "dead" by all three clinical tests - her electroencephalogram was silent, her brain-stem response was absent, and no blood flowed through her brain. Interestingly, while in this state, she encountered the "deepest" NDE of all Atlanta Study participants.


Some scientists theorize that NDEs are produced by brain chemistry. But, Dr. Peter Fenwick, a neuropsychiatrist and the leading authority in Britain concerning NDEs, believes that these theories fall far short of the facts. In the documentary, "Into the Unknown: Strange But True," Dr. Fenwick describes the state of the brain during a NDE:

"The brain isn't functioning. It's not there. It's destroyed. It's abnormal. But, yet, it can produce these very clear experiences ... an unconscious state is when the brain ceases to function. For example, if you faint, you fall to the floor, you don't know what's happening and the brain isn't working. The memory systems are particularly sensitive to unconsciousness. So, you won't remember anything. But, yet, after one of these experiences [a NDE], you come out with clear, lucid memories ... This is a real puzzle for science. I have not yet seen any good scientific explanation which can explain that fact."


"The modern tradition of equating death with an ensuing nothingness can be abandoned. For there is no reason to believe that human death severs the quality of the oneness in the universe." - Larry Dossey, MD
People have near-death experiences while brain dead


A few notes so far.

1. I have yet to see any suggestion her experiences were anesthesia awareness. They have almost no commonality with the ones I am aware of.
2. Since the medical experts and the author specifically covered the level of confirmation of the lack of any brain activity it was almost certainly because at least some of the events occurred during this time.
3. Her experiences were the opposite from anesthesia awareness. There was no pain from the events themselves and she had a third person perspective.

 

[idav]

Some scientists theorize that NDEs are produced by brain chemistry. But, Dr. Peter Fenwick, a neuropsychiatrist and the leading authority in Britain concerning NDEs, believes that these theories fall far short of the facts. In the documentary, "Into the Unknown: Strange But True," Dr. Fenwick describes the state of the brain during a NDE:

That is a huge load of BS. There are things called lucid dreaming.

"The modern tradition of equating death with an ensuing nothingness can be abandoned. For there is no reason to believe that human death severs the quality of the oneness in the universe." - Larry Dossey, MD

I actually don't mind that quote, interesting, doesn't save the Christians though, sorry. Science already agrees with buddhism that death is not a complete end.

 

[SkepticThinker]

This an opening shot in what appears to be a sea of information. At least it will get the ball rolling.
When all of Pam's vital signs were stopped, the doctor turned on a surgical saw and began to cut through Pam's skull. While this was going on, Pam reported that she felt herself "pop" outside her body and hover above the operating table. Then she watched the doctors working on her lifeless body for awhile. From her out-of-body position, she observed the doctor sawing into her skull with what looked to her like an electric toothbrush. Pam heard and reported later what the nurses in the operating room had said and exactly what was happening during the operation. At this time, every monitor attached to Pam's body registered "no life" whatsoever. At some point, Pam's consciousness floated out of the operating room and traveled down a tunnel which had a light at the end of it where her deceased relatives and friends were waiting including her long-dead grandmother. Pam's NDE ended when her deceased uncle led her back to her body for her to reentered it. Pam compared the feeling of reentering her dead body to "plunging into a pool of ice." The following is Pam Reynolds' account of her NDE in her own words.
For practical purposes outside the world of academic debate, three clinical tests commonly determine brain death. First, a standard electroencephalogram, or EEG, measures brain-wave activity. A "flat" EEG denotes non-function of the cerebral cortex - the outer shell of the cerebrum. Second, auditory evoked potentials, similar to those [clicks] elicited by the ear speakers in Pam's surgery, measure brain-stem viability. Absence of these potentials indicates non-function of the brain stem. And third, documentation of no blood flow to the brain is a marker for a generalized absence of brain function.
But during "standstill", Pam's brain was found "dead" by all three clinical tests - her electroencephalogram was silent, her brain-stem response was absent, and no blood flowed through her brain. Interestingly, while in this state, she encountered the "deepest" NDE of all Atlanta Study participants.
Some scientists theorize that NDEs are produced by brain chemistry. But, Dr. Peter Fenwick, a neuropsychiatrist and the leading authority in Britain concerning NDEs, believes that these theories fall far short of the facts. In the documentary, "Into the Unknown: Strange But True," Dr. Fenwick describes the state of the brain during a NDE:
"The brain isn't functioning. It's not there. It's destroyed. It's abnormal. But, yet, it can produce these very clear experiences ... an unconscious state is when the brain ceases to function. For example, if you faint, you fall to the floor, you don't know what's happening and the brain isn't working. The memory systems are particularly sensitive to unconsciousness. So, you won't remember anything. But, yet, after one of these experiences [a NDE], you come out with clear, lucid memories ... This is a real puzzle for science. I have not yet seen any good scientific explanation which can explain that fact.
"The modern tradition of equating death with an ensuing nothingness can be abandoned. For there is no reason to believe that human death severs the quality of the oneness in the universe." - Larry Dossey, MD
People have near-death experiences while brain dead
A few notes so far.
1. I have yet to see any suggestion her experiences were anesthesia awareness. They have almost no commonality with the ones I am aware of.
2. Since the medical experts and the author specifically covered the level of confirmation of the lack of any brain activity it was almost certainly because at least some of the events occurred during this time.
3. Her experiences were the opposite from anesthesia awareness. There was no pain from the events themselves and she had a third person perspective.

Here’s the timeline I’m looking at:

7:15 am
Pam is brought into the operating room, given general anesthesia and lost conscious awareness. Her eyes were lubricated and taped shut. She was put on artificial respiration. EEG electrodes were attached to monitor her cerebral cortex. Her head was shaved and fastened to the operating table. Her body was prepped for surgery. Speakers emitting a pulse were secured to her ears with gauze and tape.

8:40 am
The tray of surgical instruments was uncovered. Dr. Spetzler made an incision her Pam’s scalp, pulled the skin back and began cutting through her skull with a surgical saw in order to remove a piece of it. This is the moment Pam says she felt herself “pop” out of her body and hover above it. She says she saw that her head at been partially shaved instead of the whole head, as she had imagined. She says she saw and heard the bone saw they were using to cut through her skull. Pam said there was a nurse standing to her right who said something about her arteries being too small.

10:50 am
Because her arteries were too small, a surgical tube was inserted into her left femoral artery. Her blood was circulated through the cardiopulmonary bypass machine, cooled and circulated back into her body. Her body temperature began to fall.

11:05 am
Pam’s heart stopped, her EEG flattened and her brain stem became unresponsive. She was cooled to 60 degrees.

11:25 am
The bypass machine was turned off and the blood emptied from her body. She was now “clinically dead.” This is where she says she floated out of the operating room and down a tunnel of light where she met various relatives and some strangers.

12:00 – 12:30 pm
When all the blood had drained from Pam’s brain, her aneurysm collapsed and was clipped off. Shortly after, warm blood was circulated back into her body, her body temperature increased, her brainstem began responding again and the EEG recorded electrical activity in her cerebral cortex.

Somewhere in this time Pam developed an abnormal and potentially lethal heart rhythm which was restored to normal with an electrical shock and her heartbeat returned to normal.

12:32 pm
The bypass machine was turned off after her body was returned to near normal temperature. The wounds in her head were closed up while the doctors listened to music (including Hotel California which Pam says she heard). Her heartbeat and body temperature were slightly below normal throughout this time and she was put back on artificial respiration.

2:10 pm
Pam was taken to the recovery room.

Near death, explained - Salon.com
pam reynolds nde

Judging from this timeline, her experiences wherein she says she was above her body watching the surgery all occurred before the blood was drained from her body and her brain. (I bolded the part of the timeline where she was officially “clinically dead.&#8221 Notice it occurred long after she said she felt herself pop out of her body and hover above it watching the surgery.

The part about the tunnel and the light could have occurred in a microsecond in her mind at any time before the blood was drained from her brain, or shortly afterwards when warm blood was circulated back into her body, though she was still unconscious. Not to mention that she was apparently awake when they brought her into the operating room so she would have been able to view her surroundings, at least momentarily.

Had she experienced anesthesia awareness (as it appears is the case) she wouldn’t necessarily have felt any pain because she was on high doses of sufentanil (a morphine-like drug) at the time.

So,
1. I don’t know why you say that. From what I’ve read, it seems perfectly reasonable that she experienced anesthesia awareness. Dr. Woerle, who has thoroughly investigated the surgery explains it as a classic case.

2. I don’t see where or how.

3. As noted above, she was on high doses of a morphine-like drug so it makes sense that she wouldn’t feel pain. Nobody is saying she had full consciousness during the time in question.
Third person awareness has been known to occur during cases of anesthesia awareness.


anesthesia and obe

 

[1robin]

That is a huge load of BS. There are things called lucid dreaming.

I guess you know more the a PhD in the relevant subject about a case you apparently did not read. You do not dream with no blood in your brain.

don't mind that quote, interesting, doesn't save the Christians though, sorry. Science already agrees with buddhism that death is not a complete end.

It was just part of the research. I am charged with providing information not making you accept it. Did you even read anything besides the quote?