The "something can't come from nothing" argument

[1robin]

Yeah I have noticed Theif likes to deny the contributions Einstein brought forth a hundred years ago.

Thief is a smart guy but he spends more time speculating than I consider healthy. Where is he anyway?. Thief get in here and defend yourself.

 

[idav]

Thief is a smart guy but he spends more time speculating than I consider healthy. Where is he anyway?. Thief get in here and defend yourself.

I've posted such directly to him in the past.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Thief is a smart guy but he spends more time speculating than I consider healthy.

That's probably the best description I've read of Thief, so far.

 

[Thief]

That's probably the best description I've read of Thief, so far.

Speculation?....or assumption?

Assumption is a proper tool properly used.

Been here five years....not seen any reason to concede my assumptions.

 

[Thief]

Time is a measurement.
A cognitive device created by Man.
We use various methods and mechanisms.

We do it because we die.

On the chalkboard, it is a quotient.
Two numbers working together that we can work large items in our heads.

Any two items render distance.
The space between them is real enough.
Movement going from point 'a' to point 'b' is real enough.

Time is a measure of movement.....nothing more.
It is not a force or substance.

Einstein shelved his equation for awhile.
He wasn't sure.
He made his presentation when he heard someone else was working a similar notion.

 

[1robin]

Speculation?....or assumption?

Assumption is a proper tool properly used.

Been here five years....not seen any reason to concede my assumptions.

Many of your conclusions do not follow from a logical premise. They seem to be the musings of an intelligent person as to what might be true but without a basis for deducing they probably are true. I never asked you to conceded your assumptions but they have little application in a debate. I even agree with many of them but because they are not logically deduced from evidence or principle they are not persuasive. I almost always provide the reasons why I think what I do. To make claims (especially theological ones) there has to be some reason for them to be true based in evidence or proper exegesis. Even though I can agree with you maybe 50% of the time I regard pure metaphysical speculation to be the most potentially dangerous action I can think of and which has no necessity.

 

[1robin]

Time is a measurement.
A cognitive device created by Man.
We use various methods and mechanisms.

We do it because we die.

On the chalkboard, it is a quotient.
Two numbers working together that we can work large items in our heads.

Any two items render distance.
The space between them is real enough.
Movement going from point 'a' to point 'b' is real enough.

Time is a measure of movement.....nothing more.
It is not a force or substance.

Einstein shelved his equation for awhile.
He wasn't sure.
He made his presentation when he heard someone else was working a similar notion.

No one invented time because we die. We perceived time because things occur in a chronological sequence. Time is as real as mathematics, it is an abstract reality that juts happens not to be one that contains matter, energy, or space but comments on them all. BTW many abstract realties are more true than concrete things. 1 + 1 = 2 would still be true even if there were not two things in existence to be added together. They are among the few things some consider necessary truths. I don't but I get they they do.

 

[idav]

Time is a measure of movement.....nothing more.
It is not a force or substance.

Close, Time is a measurement of velocity in spacetime....time is much more than our material realm.

Theory of relativity predicted black holes. As you approach a black hole, this movement changes, we begin to travel less distance "per second" so no, it isn't just a measurement of movement. Time isn't just a ruler unless you think its possible to use a ruler that dynamically changes based on mass or velocity.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

The problem that I see with the argument that is that it simply doesn't apply to evolution. The theory of evolution simply explains the diversity of life through mutation and natural selection. It is a biological process that does not begin until life exists. And the argument does not even apply to abiogenesis, which is about life coming from non-living components.

The problem is that when creationist make this argument they are not even aware that they are not making an argument against evolution. What they are doing is making an argument in favour of "God". See Peg's response to the OP where she is defending her theology. It is all irrelevant to the question of evolution. So even if the argument is good argument for the existence of "God" (I don't find it particularly compelling), it is irrelevant to the topic of evolution.

This....this right here.....:yes:

 

[Dirty Penguin]

If 'God' was the only thing that initially existed, then everything that has been created must have been created from 'God material' for lack of a better term. This makes us, as well as everything else that exists, 'God'.

This makes me think of the American Muslims of the 5% Nation...

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Speculation?....or assumption?

Assumption is a proper tool properly used.

Been here five years....not seen any reason to concede my assumptions.

This is just priceless. This shows the lack of understanding of the English language. Personally if I were you I would have stuck with "speculation". It tends to paint a better picture than "assumption" which you proudly wear.....

Assumption | Define Assumption at Dictionary.com

something taken for granted; a supposition

Speculation | Define Speculation at Dictionary.com

the contemplation or consideration of some subject

Not only are we going to have to continue to educate you on evolutionary biology but English as well. Frankly both may be an exercise in futility.

 

[Thief]

This is just priceless. This shows the lack of understanding of the English language. Personally if I were you I would have stuck with "speculation". It tends to paint a better picture than "assumption" which you proudly wear.....

Assumption | Define Assumption at Dictionary.com



Speculation | Define Speculation at Dictionary.com


Not only are we going to have to continue to educate you on evolutionary biology but English as well. Frankly both may be an exercise in futility.

I did quite well in all of my English classes.....thank you for pointing that out.
My instructors told me to my face...I have a talent.

As for you....you really are priceless.....as in no value.

This discussion can be speculation.
And assumption is a useful tool....properly applied.

What's holding you back?

 

[Thief]

Many of your conclusions do not follow from a logical premise. They seem to be the musings of an intelligent person as to what might be true but without a basis for deducing they probably are true. I never asked you to conceded your assumptions but they have little application in a debate. I even agree with many of them but because they are not logically deduced from evidence or principle they are not persuasive. I almost always provide the reasons why I think what I do. To make claims (especially theological ones) there has to be some reason for them to be true based in evidence or proper exegesis. Even though I can agree with you maybe 50% of the time I regard pure metaphysical speculation to be the most potentially dangerous action I can think of and which has no necessity.

At some 'point' you have a choice to make.
It will come down to Spirit first?....or substance.

All the follows pivots on that choice.

 

[Sapiens]

I did quite well in all of my English classes.....thank you for pointing that out.
My instructors told me to my face...I have a talent.

I assume that none of them were native speakers.

 

[Thief]

I assume that none of them were native speakers.

You assume poorly.

So what was your stance?....on something from nothing....

 

[Ultimatum]

"Something can't come from nothing" -Creationist
"Something can't come from nothing" -Evolution Advocate

What am I seeing here?

 

[Thief]

How about making that choice I love to post?

or do you prefer to insist.....substance can 'self' generate, replicate, and initiate life?

Do you believe a dead thing can beget the living?
Do you believe a dead thing can just suddenly move without something to move it?

 

[1robin]

At some 'point' you have a choice to make.
It will come down to Spirit first?....or substance.

All the follows pivots on that choice.

This is not the dichotomy that physics contemplates. It is not whether matter or spirit is primary. It is whether mind or matter is primary. Physics not any science can study spirit so little commentary on it can be made, but much in science (like some of Planck's work) show that mind is primary and matter derivative.

This is an example of what I meant. Saying spirit is primary to matter is just raw speculations. Saying mind is primary to matter is something that can be studied and perhaps verified one day. A claim ought to have roots in some foundation.

 

[allfoak]

There is a great void that must be bridged.
The bridge seems to be something that most are afraid of and that is imagination.
All of our dreams come from the imagination.

This is where it all starts and sometimes ends.
The choice is always ours.
If we act on our dreams we then begin to get something from nothing.
Sometimes our dreams are small but no less difficult to manifest.

There was a boy named Nate who lived in the inner city in a rather bad neighborhood.
His Dad, older brother and sister all in jail.
In order for him and his mother to get to the store they had to ask Nate's uncle (who they hated) to get them there and back safely.
Nate could see that his mom did not like him and wished they didn't need his help.
"One day he thought to himself i will be able to go to the store by myself for my mom".
He worked hard everyday to help his mother in every way he could.
He learned how to discipline himself by doing the best he could with everything he did.
He learned how to exercise his body and his mind both and in a few short years he had grown in mind and stature.
One day after a rather bad visit from his uncle and subsequent visit to the store,
Nate approached his mother about letting him go to the store without help next time.

His mother was full of all of the usual objections about how dangerous it is for a boy like me out there.
But this time Nate insisted, he was not going to have his uncle treating his mom bad anymore.
His mother, at her wits end over it all said " we shall see".

So the time came once again for the need to go out to the store.
Nate again insisted that they no longer needed their uncles help, that he could handle anything that would come up.

His mother still unsure but not wanting to deal with the abuse she had been receiving already, decided to give it a try.
On the way to the store one of Nate's friends met up with them and tagged along.
They then met up with another mutual friend and then another and another until there was a crowd of people surrounding Nate's mother all the way to the store and back.

When they got home and put everything away ( not one thing of which did either of them have to carry home), Nate's mom turned to him and said: Nate i had no idea you had so many friends".
"They are just a few friends from school mom" said Nate.

You see, Nate lived his dream.
He created something from nothing.
He became a well liked and respected person among his peers and when the time came that he needed help they were there without him even asking.

Something does come from nothing.
Anything you want.

 

[1robin]

There is a great void that must be bridged.
The bridge seems to be something that most are afraid of and that is imagination.
All of our dreams come from the imagination.

This is where it all starts and sometimes ends.
The choice is always ours.
If we act on our dreams we then begin to get something from nothing.
Sometimes our dreams are small but no less difficult to manifest.

There was a boy named Nate who lived in the inner city in a rather bad neighborhood.
His Dad, older brother and sister all in jail.
In order for him and his mother to get to the store they had to ask Nate's uncle (who they hated) to get them there and back safely.
Nate could see that his mom did not like him and wished they didn't need his help.
"One day he thought to himself i will be able to go to the store by myself for my mom".
He worked hard everyday to help his mother in every way he could.
He learned how to discipline himself by doing the best he could with everything he did.
He learned how to exercise his body and his mind both and in a few short years he had grown in mind and stature.
One day after a rather bad visit from his uncle and subsequent visit to the store,
Nate approached his mother about letting him go to the store without help next time.

His mother was full of all of the usual objections about how dangerous it is for a boy like me out there.
But this time Nate insisted, he was not going to have his uncle treating his mom bad anymore.
His mother, at her wits end over it all said " we shall see".

So the time came once again for the need to go out to the store.
Nate again insisted that they no longer needed their uncles help, that he could handle anything that would come up.

His mother still unsure but not wanting to deal with the abuse she had been receiving already, decided to give it a try.
On the way to the store one of Nate's friends met up with them and tagged along.
They then met up with another mutual friend and then another and another until there was a crowd of people surrounding Nate's mother all the way to the store and back.

When they got home and put everything away ( not one thing of which did either of them have to carry home), Nate's mom turned to him and said: Nate i had no idea you had so many friends".
"They are just a few friends from school mom" said Nate.

You see, Nate lived his dream.
He created something from nothing.
He became a well liked and respected person among his peers and when the time came that he needed help they were there without him even asking.

Something does come from nothing.
Anything you want.

Great story, terrible physics.