The "something can't come from nothing" argument

[Thief]

But all things appear to change over time, thus why would anyone assume that God hasn't changed? What evidence could they go by? And it's because of this constant change that we experience whereas no one had to be first.

Let me give an example. Let's say you and I were talking and suddenly the lights went on. If I said, "Look, it's a miracle and God did it!", what would you think of me? Wouldn't you instead try and figure out why the lights went on, thus cause and effect?

Again, to be clear, I am not saying there is no God, but merely that I think that the typical depiction of God tends to be very anthropomorphic and not really very logical based on what we now know and the patterns we experience.

This experiment was actually done with children.
They were told...when the light comes on....an unseen spirit did it.
Younger children leaned to the notion more so than older children.

Adults, of course form their beliefs quite differently.

 

[metis]

The garden event would not be evolution.
It would be manipulation.

The "garden event" I think is quite clearly symbolic, especially because the names themselves are symbolic terms. The importance of this narrative is not "did this happen?" but what is really being taught here, particularly in terms of morals and values.

Today, it makes not one iota of difference whether Adam and Eve were real characters, but what does make a difference are the morals and values that are found within that we can refer to today.

 

[metis]

This experiment was actually done with children.
They were told...when the light comes on....an unseen spirit did it.
Younger children leaned to the notion more so than older children.

Adults, of course form their beliefs quite differently.

But certainly not all.

It's far easier to grasp onto a simplistic approach because one doesn't have to do that much thinking to accept it. Part of what we may call "intelligence" involves piecing things together so that they make sense, thus avoiding cognitive dissonance-- at least hopefully.

When it comes to the issues of God and creation, it's much more convenient to not piece things together, thus forming an image of God that pretty much defies everything we observe and experience, and then attributing miracles and characteristics to God that are in no way verifiable or even logical based on what we observe and experience.

Therefore, it's not that there isn't a God, but that there's a tendency for so many to simply not be willing to piece together things in a logical manner based on what we actually do observe, especially since there's absolutely no indication that these observances are wrong.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

This experiment was actually done with children.
They were told...when the light comes on....an unseen spirit did it.
Younger children leaned to the notion more so than older children.

Adults, of course form their beliefs quite differently.

So Neanderthals? And if the garden is manipulation what was being manipulated and how was it later spread?

 

[viole]

This experiment was actually done with children.
They were told...when the light comes on....an unseen spirit did it.
Younger children leaned to the notion more so than older children.

A similar experiment has been carried out by telling young children that presents at Christmas come from an older man living in my neighborhood.

Adults, of course form their beliefs quite differently.

Are you sure about that?

Ciao

- viole

 

[McBell]

Are you sure about that?

Being "sure" about something has no bearing on the correctness of the "sure" thing.

 

[McBell]

No really....in the scheme of regression...Someone had to be first.

Still hanging onto this bold empty claim?

 

[fantome profane]

This experiment was actually done with children.

Wow, and who is this scum that experimented on children?

 

[ruffen]

The "garden event" I think is quite clearly symbolic, especially because the names themselves are symbolic terms. The importance of this narrative is not "did this happen?" but what is really being taught here, particularly in terms of morals and values.

Today, it makes not one iota of difference whether Adam and Eve were real characters, but what does make a difference are the morals and values that are found within that we can refer to today.

All right, I'll bite.

What is being taught in terms of morals and values.

The story says that God planted a tree with absolutely no other function than temptation. In the garden there was a snake that was cunning and evil. The tree would give them insight into right and wrong, which they then did not have when they should have understood that it would be wrong to eat the fruit. Eve and Adam ate the fruit.

Then God punished them. He tossed them out of the garden, he damned the earth to make food more difficult to get, he damned the woman to have pain during child birth, he made them mortal, he damned them so harshly that they never got pardoned or had a chance to serve their sentence and move on.

Then God decided that their children would be equally damned. And their children! And their children! All the way to you and me, and we are still suffering the hateful punishment of a psychopathic God, for something that we didn't even do, but our first ancestors did in a moment of curiosity.

So please tell me, what is the moral values we should learn from this? That we shouldn't seek knowledge? That we shouldn't explore and think for ourselves but bow down as slaves to whoever rules the garden? That it's okay with unlimited punishment for a limited crime? That it's okay to punish someone for something their ancestors did but they didn't do themselves? That it's morally just to entrap people with tempting fruits and then unleash horrible punishment when they walk into the trap?

I'm really struggling to see what positive moral values we might learn from this story.

 

[gnostic]

Sorry Dude....I'm blowing off the whole thing.
For the singularity to be singular.....no secondary point is allowed.
Therefore no dimensional quality.
No number system.

And you still don't understand that a singularity can't be DENSE, without mass or volume.

Scientists are not saying there are no mass or volume; what they are saying is that there are no way to measure the singularity with their current level of technology.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

All right, I'll bite.

What is being taught in terms of morals and values.

The story says that God planted a tree with absolutely no other function than temptation. In the garden there was a snake that was cunning and evil. The tree would give them insight into right and wrong, which they then did not have when they should have understood that it would be wrong to eat the fruit. Eve and Adam ate the fruit.

Then God punished them. He tossed them out of the garden, he damned the earth to make food more difficult to get, he damned the woman to have pain during child birth, he made them mortal, he damned them so harshly that they never got pardoned or had a chance to serve their sentence and move on.

Then God decided that their children would be equally damned. And their children! And their children! All the way to you and me, and we are still suffering the hateful punishment of a psychopathic God, for something that we didn't even do, but our first ancestors did in a moment of curiosity.

So please tell me, what is the moral values we should learn from this? That we shouldn't seek knowledge? That we shouldn't explore and think for ourselves but bow down as slaves to whoever rules the garden? That it's okay with unlimited punishment for a limited crime? That it's okay to punish someone for something their ancestors did but they didn't do themselves? That it's morally just to entrap people with tempting fruits and then unleash horrible punishment when they walk into the trap?

I'm really struggling to see what positive moral values we might learn from this story.

Depends on what route you go

1. The folly of man to believe that they can be like God. Ignoring the Christian Interpretation, you have to remember that long ago there wasn't really such a thing as a "democracy" you had rulers and kings and what they said was law. God was the ultimate ruler and king, to disobey God was akin to disobeying your king, while today that maybe silly, back then it was the thought process that exist. Adam and Eve where servants in Gods Garden, God gave them a place to stay and live, and the tree was placed, a test. They failed that test. Now mind you there isn't much to say that the idea of God in the garden of Eden has the omniscience thought frame, or even if that God does, does not necessarily mean that God is benevolent.

2. The issue of free will, by proxy mans eating of the fruit gave them knowledge of Good and Evil, but it also is a story of the conflicting nature of man. Eden represented balance and order, Man's eating of the fruit represents a rejection of that leading to chaos. So man is "free" but now must face the decisions and repercussions of rejecting balance and order.

IF you want to get the motives, morals and values of these stories you can't really try to apply them in context of today, you have to see them from the perspectives of the time.

 

[Bunyip]

The garden event would not be evolution.
It would be manipulation.

So what? The 'garden event' was a parable, not a historical event. The fact remains that homo sapiens can not and did not emerge from a single mating pair.

 

[Thief]

So what? The 'garden event' was a parable, not a historical event. The fact remains that homo sapiens can not and did not emerge from a single mating pair.

The Adam and Eve event is apparently too much for you....too bad.

The divergence of Man from the animal kingdom was quick....too quick.
No one will ever pinpoint the moment.
You might need that 'rib' everyone has heard about to prove it happened.
(I suspect the 'rib' IS metaphor for the dna manipulation)

Single mating pair?......nay....

Cain had to choose from the population at hand.
From there the influence of the garden event was dealt.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

The Adam and Eve event is apparently too much for you....too bad.

The divergence of Man from the animal kingdom was quick....too quick.
No one will ever pinpoint the moment.
You might need that 'rib' everyone has heard about to prove it happened.
(I suspect the 'rib' IS metaphor for the dna manipulation)

Single mating pair?......nay....

Cain had to choose from the population at hand.
From there the influence of the garden event was dealt.

So pretty much just make it up?

What happened to the dinosaurs?

What happened to Neanderthals?

Where do they fit into this?

 

[Skwim]

The Adam and Eve event is apparently too much for you....too bad.

The divergence of Man from the animal kingdom was quick....too quick.
No one will ever pinpoint the moment.

So what kingdom does man belong to if it isn't the animal kingdom Animalia?

 

[Monk Of Reason]

The divergence of Man from the animal kingdom was quick....too quick.
No one will ever pinpoint the moment.
You might need that 'rib' everyone has heard about to prove it happened.
(I suspect the 'rib' IS metaphor for the dna manipulation)

Actually if it was really swift then it would be pretty easy to pinpoint

 

[Bunyip]

The Adam and Eve event is apparently too much for you....too bad.

The divergence of Man from the animal kingdom was quick....too quick.
No one will ever pinpoint the moment.
You might need that 'rib' everyone has heard about to prove it happened.
(I suspect the 'rib' IS metaphor for the dna manipulation)

Single mating pair?......nay....

Cain had to choose from the population at hand.
From there the influence of the garden event was dealt.

Not at all, the parable of Adam and Eve is perfectly understsndable.

FYI there was no point in which humanity diverged from the animals, we remain animals.

 

[Thief]

Not at all, the parable of Adam and Eve is perfectly understsndable.

FYI there was no point in which humanity diverged from the animals, we remain animals.

Ok...we are flesh.

Call your fellow man an animal to his face.....see what happens.

 

[Thief]

So pretty much just make it up?

What happened to the dinosaurs?

What happened to Neanderthals?

Where do they fit into this?

Chemistry is dealt in progression.
Some call it evolution.
The garden event would be a deliberate manipulation.

 

[Thief]

So what kingdom does man belong to if it isn't the animal kingdom Animalia?

Indeed!

We are flesh for now.
Shall we live in the kingdom of the Spirit?