The Son of Man and the Saints of Daniel 7

[Aupmanyav]

In other words, we would need to study a lot to find out what Baha'u'llah was quoting and talking about.

That is your view. For me, Bahaollah was one of the thousands of people who claimed to be representatives of a fictitious Allah without providing any proof other than his vision of the "Heavenly Maid".

 

[Samael_Khan]

In the past the Watch Tower has said that the 144,000 was complete but these days it seems to be increasing since we see more people participating in the Lords Supper at Kingdom Halls.(something only those in the 144,000 are supposed to do) How is this happening if the 144,000 is full already? Does that mean that the Watch Tower has been wrong about the 144,000 being complete?

You should study their "New Light" doctrine as it allows previous beliefs to be changed based on better understanding of the scriptures. So the idea that the 144 000 has been fulfilled could possibly be an outdated belief that has been updated. So yes, they do acknowledge that previous beliefs they have had were wrong, even though they might not explicitly express it in that way.

What is definitely happening is that they predicted that the amount of people partaking of the Lord's Supper should decrease, but with the increase of people partaking, they have said that many of those people might be mentally or emotionally unstable, therefore they are wrong.

The question then is, how do they know who is "anointed" and who is not.

 

[Clara Tea]

Bahai believe in divine messengers.



God's message to the world, divinely given to many modern psychics, was to do what they already knew.



They already knew "thou shalt not kill." They already knew, in the bible's Revelation of St. John the Divine, God had commanded that nobody attack Babylon, Iraq, and Revelation 15 (7 plagues) was part of the punishment.



But why would God convene many modern psychics to tell the world what the world already knew? It is because God knew that in these end times, God would be defied by the misguided and faithless. Satan rules by deception.



Mohammad, the prophet, did exactly the same thing. He had told the world what the world already knew.



How do we know that these are real prophets, with real advice? Because the information is merely a repeat of God's words, and those are unmistakably real.



God said "thou shalt not kill." Psychics around the world convened on the internet, frantic to stop President George W. Bush from defying God by attacking Babylon, Iraq, fearing Revelation 15 (7 plagues) and of God's wrath. They were given dire images of God's punishments, culminating with the total destruction of life on earth. These psychics couldn't sleep because these graphic images were so numerous, graphic, and disturbing. Many of the psychics had very little time to live, and God doesn't want them bragging that he gave them special insights.



Some psychics were very well known, and had worked for the CIA (located a sunken Russian sub, for example). Others were highly gifted psychics but merely housewives. When they met on the internet, some felt crazy because of their visions of global destruction. But, befriending others who shared their visions, they felt sane and respected.



Stargate (not the TV show which was named to cover up a real CIA program) was part of Project MKULTRA.



https://www.amazon.com/Psychic-Warrior-Americas-Foremost-Top-Secret/dp/0312964137



David Morehouse was a psychic who worked for Stargate (famous for seeing the later explosion of Pan Am Flight 103), showed (in his book, "Psychic Warrior") that the CIA used psychics destructively (and this is contrary to God's plan).



The modern psychics were irked that government psychics were sensing them because of what they wrote on the internet, since, officially, the Stargate program had been shut down in 1995 (they used low quality psychics). The modern psychics were encouraged to know that these government psychics were far inferior in power. Yet, they tried to push away their psychic power, and found that they could not (it is in the nature of psychic energy that it can penetrate virtually anywhere, except, of course, heaven, which is protected by a vortex of psychic energy). However, the psychic energy can be pushed aside and wrong information can be intentionally fed back to the source, discouraging them.



On occasion, these modern psychics played with each other, seeking the limits of their powers. For example, sometimes they psychically visited each other, and toured each other's homes. Sometimes they played games sensing how many fingers were held up. In some cases, injuries were incurred, due to the extreme power of the psychic energy.



Revelation (a chapter of the New Testament bible) said that the Bush presidents were inhabited by evil demons from the brimstone depths of the bottomless pit of hell (identified as the attackers of Babylon).



The modern psychics were awestruck by the evil and power that they had sensed in W. Bush (the beast, more so than his father, the dragon).



This wasn't just about the things that W. Bush did (torture camps, wars against peaceful nations that killed a million people, lies, environmental damage, economic destruction, condemning an innocent man to death as Governor of Texas by not allowing DNA evidence, spying on everyone's telephones and internets, etc). Nor was it about the things that the dragon (Bush Senior) did, such as having a sex affair with Jennifer Fitzgerald, and trading counterfeit currency and faked Russian arms and hard narcotics (which ended up on the streets of the US) in order to support an Contra dictator and arm Iran (Iran Contra Scandal). It was about the evil that they sensed in President W. Bush. They could feel his dark soul....the soul of a Satanic demon, and a very very powerful one.



Some of the psychics tuned their psychic abilities to the oval office and overheard discussions about the war and about how W. Bush wanted to illegallly make a war against Niger (falsely accusing them of selling yellow-cake Uranium to Iraq, but their aid, Wilson, had refused to tell lies and make a phony war. They punished Wilson by outing his CIA wife, Valery Plame).

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I have been reading about the Bahai faith from some of its members on this website over the past few months and have made this thread especially with those of that faith in mind. Of course everyone that believes in the Bible will find the information useful, even exciting!

Following will be a humble ones understanding into these profound prophecies which were kept locked for long lasting times. Of course God himself is the one who interprets prophecy, and only his holy spirit can reveal meaning of prophecy, and it is usually done after the event, or while it is in the process of fulfillment.

Daniel himself says that some of his prophecies perplexed him and he did not understand them. But he was told that "during the time of the end" those having insight will rove about to and fro in the scriptures and true knowledge will be made known to them.

This is important to understand, because before their time God has not allowed these things to be understood. In fact the Bible tells us that even the angels desire to peer into these things.-1 Peter 1:12.


We know that Daniel 8 gives us the exact time Messiah would arrive on earth and tells us that he would die, and that God had thusly decided to have Jerusalem and its temple destroyed (Daniel 9:25-26).

But when would he rule as king? The prophecy in Daniel 4 about 7 times gives us the time period when the gentile times would end, and God's kingdom in heaven would begin to rule.

Daniel 7 gives us a glimpse into the coronation ceremony in heaven. There we are told that the "son of man" gains access to the "Ancient of Days" (Jehovah God) and he is given rulership and a kingdom and will rule forever.

Daniel 7 also tells us that the "saints" or "holy ones" will also take possession of that kingdom and their rule will last forever.

So who is the "son of man" and who are the saints that will reign with him in heaven?

Jesus Christ is the "son of man." He referred to himself as the son of man on a number of occasions, and others were inspired to call him the son of man.

For example while the first Christian martyr was about to be stoned to death for witnessing about Jesus and his Father Jehovah God to the corrupt and hypocritical Jewish leaders of the Sanhedrin, as they had condemned the master and Savior of the world Jesus Christ to death, he was given a vision of Jesus Christ in heaven at Jehovah's right hand, and referred to him as the "son of man":

"But he, being full of holy spirit, gazed into heaven and caught sight of God’s glory and of Jesus standing at God’s right hand, and he said: “Look! I see the heavens opened up and the Son of man standing at God’s right hand."-Acts 7:55-56.

The Bible clearly shows us that after Jesus went to heaven he was standing at God's right hand, and he is the "son of man." This is most appropriate because Jesus Christ is the only angel in heaven that emptied his prehuman spirit form and was transferred by holy spirit to the womb of Mary and born as a human son of Adam. So he was the "son of God" but also now he could rightly bear the title "son of man."

Now Jesus Christ, on the night before his death made a covenant with his apostles for a kingdom. And all those who are called to heavenly life also enter into that covenant. What was that covenant?:

“However, you are the ones who have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the tribes of Israel."-Luke 22:28-30.

It was for a kingdom and that they would sit on thrones. They were to be kings with Jesus. What that fully meant the apostles did not understand at that time. They most likely were thinking like the rest of the Jews at that time, that the Messiah's kingdom was going to be earthly, they would have a human king, and that he would rule from earthly Jerusalem, that is why they asked:

“Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction."-Acts 1:6, 7.

They wanted to know if Jesus was going to restore the kingdom of Israel, like in olden times. But Jesus told them that they did not get to know that at that time.

Obviously we know the answer was no. Jesus returned to heaven and shortly after poured out Jehovah's holy spirit on the 120 disciples at Pentecost of 33 C. E. and baptized them with holy spirit. They were "born again" or "born from above" at that time and came into the new covenant that went into effect.

After that time all Christians who were baptized with holy spirit would be brought into the new covenant, and the covenant with Jesus for a kingdom. Revelation 7 and 14 tells us that those who will be in Mount Zion with Jesus Christ are 144,000 bought from earth. Revelation 22 tells us that they will be in the presence of Jehovah God and Jesus Christ and will rule as kings forever and ever.

Now with all this in mind let us read Daniel's thrilling vision of these sacred secrets of the kingdom of God and see how it is unfolding!

“I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him up close before that One. And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed."-Daniel 7:13-14.

We have seen that the Bible tells us that Jesus Christ is the "son of man." Here in vision in Daniel 7 he is in heaven and is brought before his Father, Jehovah God, the Ancient of Days and is given rulership and kingdom and honor so that everyone on earth should serve him.

If we now read a little further we will see that he does not rule alone. He has companions:

"But the holy ones (saints) of the Supreme One will receive the kingdom, and they will possess the kingdom forever, yes, forever and ever.’"-Daniel 7:18.

Here we are shown that the saints, or "holy ones" will receive the kingdom with Jesus Christ. This is just as Jesus made mention to his disciples that they would sit on thrones with him in his kingdom.

Talking directly to these chosen "holy ones" Jesus says in Revelation:

"To the one who conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, just as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne."-Revelation 3:21.

The apostle Paul wrote to the anointed Christian congregation:

"If we go on enduring, we will also rule together as kings; if we deny, he will also deny us."-2 Timothy 2:12.

So the hope of those called to heavenly life is to rule with Jesus as kings, just as he promised those whom he brings into the kingdom covenant when they are baptized with holy spirit.

That this will be in heaven there is no doubt. In a previous post I made about the 144,000 being in heavenly Mount Zion with Jesus Christ. Scripture says concerning those thusly called who have God's name on their forehead, that they will be in God's presence and will rule forever and ever:

"Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads."-Revelation 14:1.

"But the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his slaves will offer him sacred service;  and they will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads.  Also, night will be no more, and they have no need of lamplight or sunlight, for Jehovah God will shed light upon them, and they will rule as kings forever and ever."-Revelation 22:3-5.

Paul tells the holy ones that now we can only understand the spiritual things partially in a mental haze, but when we are in heaven, then we will see God as he is "face-to-face" and we will know him exactly as he is and just as he knows us:

"For now we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face-to-face. At present I know partially, but then I will know accurately, just as I am accurately known."-1 Corinthians 13:12.

These holy ones are the called and chosen to rule in heaven. Notice that in the end of the days at the very end that the king in Daniel's vision will rise up against them and will be allowed to wage war with them and conquer them:

"And in the final part of their kingdom, as the transgressors act to a completion, a fierce-looking king who understands ambiguous sayings will stand up.  His power will become great, but not through his own power. He will bring ruin in an extraordinary way, and he will be successful and act effectively. He will bring mighty ones to ruin, also the people made up of the holy ones."-Daniel 8:23, 24.

At the very end this king will stand up and wage war and bring many people to ruin, including the "holy ones" that will receive the kingdom.

....

I had a read of Daniel 7 and see it could be the History of Faith.

In the Bible I see the beasts mentioned are Mens rule on this earth. When God's Law is forgotten men become the beast that devours faith.

The 4 Beasts is interesting, I see the first 3 cover a large history of Faiths. The first beast being all Faiths that have lost the records of the Messengers,

".... until its wings were torn off and it was lifted from the ground so that it stood on two feet like a human being, and the mind of a human was given to it..."

Man's ideas replaced what was from God

The 2nd beast could refer to the Jewish history, the 3rd beast to Christianity and its history and the 4th Beast seems to tie in with Islam and its history connected to the Messages of the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

The 4th beast to me in Daniel 7 is no doubt Islam and it rule by men, forgetful of. Muhammad and the Quran.

The son of man in this chapter to me is the Bab and the Ancient of Days is Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

 

[nPeace]

As I said: "Baha'is believe that Jesus was the Son of Man who sat on the right hand of God's power and might while He walked the earth and after he ascended to fourth heaven."

What I meant is that Jesus is at the Right Hand of God in heaven.

Fourth heaven? Wherever that came from makes no difference.
Whether the son of man is sitting, standing, or running, does not matter.
The fact is, after his ascension to heaven, Jesus is continually identified as the son of man.
So for anyone to claim that the son of man is someone other than Jesus, is to contradict the scriptures, because when Jesus said, “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man" and " The Son of man will send his angels" (Matthew 13:37-41)
". . .the Son of man is to come in the glory of his Father with his angels" (Matthew 16:27)
". . .when the Son of man sits down on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will sit on 12 thrones. . ." (Matthew 19:28)
"Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (Matthew 24:30)
...and all the rest... (Matthew 24:36-44 ; Matthew 25:31)
They refer to no one else but Jesus.

Just as the scriptures say of Michael (Daniel 12:1 - “During that time Michael will stand up, . . .), the son of man will conquer.
“Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.” (Psalm 110:1)

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Fourth heaven? Wherever that came from makes no difference.
Whether the son of man is sitting, standing, or running, does not matter.
The fact is, after his ascension to heaven, Jesus is continually identified as the son of man.
So for anyone to claim that the son of man is someone other than Jesus, is to contradict the scriptures, because when Jesus said, “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man" and " The Son of man will send his angels" (Matthew 13:37-41)
". . .the Son of man is to come in the glory of his Father with his angels" (Matthew 16:27)
". . .when the Son of man sits down on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will sit on 12 thrones. . ." (Matthew 19:28)
"Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (Matthew 24:30)
...and all the rest... (Matthew 24:36-44 ; Matthew 25:31)
They refer to no one else but Jesus.

Just as the scriptures say of Michael (Daniel 12:1 - “During that time Michael will stand up, . . .), the son of man will conquer.
“Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.” (Psalm 110:1)

This passage helps

Daniel 7:13-14
“I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed."

So it appears another can come Like unto the Son of Man.

I see that passage is the Bab who came like Jesus and was also a lamb and the Ancient of Days is the Message of Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

". . .the Son of man is to come in the glory of his Father with his angels" (Matthew 16:27)

That to me is Christ returned in the Glory of God, the Father Baha'u'llah.

The Angles are the Martyrs

Regards Tony

 

[nPeace]

This passage helps

Daniel 7:13-14
“I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed."

So it appears another can come Like unto the Son of Man.

I see that passage is the Bab who came like Jesus and was also a lamb and the Ancient of Days is the Message of Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

That passage does not help Bahais, Tony. It helps us understand the order of events, when God's kingdom will begin to rule in the midst of God's enemies.
Did God appoint one king or two?

If the answer is one, which clearly it is, based on numerous scriptures, then Daniel 7 is against Bahais... it does not help them, because the one who comes before the ancient of days is "given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed."

One king Tony. Who is that? (Matthew 19:28 ; Luke 22:28-30; Psalms 2)

That to me is Christ returned in the Glory of God, the Father Baha'u'llah.

The Angles are the Martyrs

Regards Tony

Anything could mean anything to one. That's not what matters.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That passage does not help Bahais, Tony. It helps us understand the order of events, when God's kingdom will begin to rule in the midst of God's enemies.
Did God appoint one king or two?

If the answer is one, which clearly it is, based on numerous scriptures, then Daniel 7 is against Bahais... it does not help them, because the one who comes before the ancient of days is "given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed."

One king Tony. Who is that? (Matthew 19:28 ; Luke 22:28-30; Psalms 2)


Anything could mean anything to one. That's not what matters.

That answer is simple, God is our true King and ruler who has given us worldly rule.

The Mesengers give the Morals and Laws for the age we live in, that we are to live by.

We can implement God's kingdom on earth, only when we submit to God.

Muhammad taught submission.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Bahaollah should have explained it all. Now we have to wait for another 800 years before the next 'manifestation' of Allah arrives. Why can't the messengers of Bahai Allah give complete and full message? They always leave puzzles. If there is no boiling in hell or no eternal torture, then what is the need to be afraid of it? How does it matter if we are close to Bahai Allah or at a distance? No one of the followers of Bahaollah asked this, nor his son and great-grandson explained it. A very slipshod way of giving and sending messages. We can do better with e-mail.

The answers to the questions that we need to have answers to are all in the Baha'i Writings, although sometimes we need to go digging for them..

 

[Trailblazer]

Took off to where? Timbuktoo? In What? Some Vimana? You mean people were not pursuing science before 1844. Kindly read this rather than declaration of Bab. 19th century in science - Wikipedia
So Bab ushered in Science in 1844. What was Bab's or Bahaollah's contribution to it?
What silly things you write Trailblazer. You always manage to startle / surprise me.

I never said that people were not pursuing science before 1844, I said it took off after 1844, meaning that more scientific discoveries were made after 1844 then were made before 1844, at an ever-increasing pace.

From Wikipedia: The 19th century in science saw the birth of science as a profession; the term scientist was coined in 1833 by William Whewell,[1] which soon replaced the older term of (natural) philosopher.

Baha'u'llah contributed to that by releasing the Holy Spirit into the world, just as Jesus had done in His age.

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

 

[nPeace]

That answer is simple, God is our true King and ruler who has given us worldly rule.

The Mesengers give the Morals and Laws for the age we live in, that we are to live by.

We can implement God's kingdom on earth, only when we submit to God.

Muhammad taught submission.

Regards Tony

The answer is indeed simple, but that's not an answer to the question Tony.
Did God appoint one king or two? One king. Correct? Who is that king? The answer cannot be God.
God has not appointed or anointed himself as king.

(Psalm 2:1-12) 1 Why are the nations agitated And the peoples muttering an empty thing? 2 The kings of the earth take their stand And high officials gather together as one Against Jehovah and against his anointed one. 3 They say: “Let us tear off their shackles And throw off their ropes!” 4 The One enthroned in the heavens will laugh; Jehovah will scoff at them. 5 At that time he will speak to them in his anger And terrify them in his burning anger, 6 Saying: “I myself have installed my king On Zion, my holy mountain.” 7 Let me proclaim the decree of Jehovah; He said to me: “You are my son; Today I have become your father. 8 Ask of me, and I will give nations as your inheritance And the ends of the earth as your possession. 9 You will break them with an iron scepter, And you will smash them like a piece of pottery.” 10 So now, you kings, show insight; Accept correction, you judges of the earth. 11 Serve Jehovah with fear, And rejoice with trembling. 12 Honor the son, or God will become indignant And you will perish from the way, For His anger flares up quickly. Happy are all those taking refuge in Him.

The simple answer is God's son Jesus Christ is the anointed, and appointed king of God's kingdom.
He rules until God puts all enemies under his feet.
(1 Corinthians 15:25-28) 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

 

[Trailblazer]

Did God appoint one king or two?

If the answer is one, which clearly it is, based on numerous scriptures, then Daniel 7 is against Bahais... it does not help them, because the one who comes before the ancient of days is "given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed."

Daniel 7 is about Baha’u’llah, who was one like the Son of man, the return of the Son of man who came in the clouds of men’s ignorance.

Daniel 7:13-14 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Jesus ascended into heaven in the clouds. Baha’u’llah, one like a son of man, descended from the clouds of heaven of the Will of God, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. These verses are about an earthly Kingdom, not a heavenly Kingdom. Jesus’ Kingdom was in heaven, Baha’u’llah’s Kingdom was on earth.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

One king Tony. Who is that? (Matthew 19:28 ; Luke 22:28-30; Psalms 2)

Those verses don’t help your case because they are not about Jesus; they are about Baha’u’llah.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Baha’u’llah was the return of the Son of man and one like the Son of man.

Luke 22:28-30 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations. And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The kingdom Jesus appointed was not a kingdom Jesus would rule. The kingdom was not of this world, it was in heaven.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Psalms 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

If we see what Zion Means to a Jewish Person, then we can then draw conclusions as to what Zion really is.

"..Judaism. Zion is the Hebrew name for a hill south of the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, upon which was built the City of David. ... The location of the Temple, and in particular its Holy of Holies (innermost sanctum), is the most holy place in the world for the Jewish people, seen as the connection between God and humanity."

"In biblical usage, however, “Mount Zion” often means the city rather than the hill itself. ... Mount Zion is the place where Yahweh, the God of Israel, dwells (Isaiah 8:18; Psalm 74:2), the place where he is king (Isaiah 24:23) and where he has installed his king, David (Psalm 2:6)"

Thus it is Logical that Zion moves to where God chooses to give and place His Messenger.

Also consider;
"The word Zion literally means 'marked' or 'distinctive.' It refers to those inner qualities that distinguish the Jewish people - a 'people who dwells alone' with their own unique spiritual traits."

As evidenced by the fact that the Jewish prophecies were fulfilled there, that holy hill is Mt. Carmel.

Isaiah 35 King James Version (KJV)

35 The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.2 It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the Lord, and the excellency of our God.

Above Haifa, Israel, stands Mt. Carmel, proclaiming the Glory of the Lord has come.

 

[Trailblazer]

(Psalm 2:6-8) 6 Saying: “I myself have installed my king On Zion, my holy mountain.” 7 Let me proclaim the decree of Jehovah; He said to me: “You are my son; Today I have become your father. 8 Ask of me, and I will give nations as your inheritance And the ends of the earth as your possession.

The simple answer is God's son Jesus Christ is the anointed, and appointed king of God's kingdom.
He rules until God puts all enemies under his feet.

The simple answer is that Baha'u'llah is the appointed king of God's kingdom who was installed On Zion, God's holy mountain, unless you have another explanation as to why all the prophecies have been fulfilled and still no Jesus...

Isaiah prophesied that the Plain of Sharon and the holy mountain, Carmel, would both be centres for the light and presence of the ‘Glory of the Lord’ in the last days. He said:

“The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.” (Isaiah 35:1).

“It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.” (Isaiah 35:2).

“And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.” (Isaiah 35:10).

Again in the chapter preceding the one in which he, Isaiah, promises that God will raise up a ‘righteous man from the East’, he foretells:

“And the Glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of God hath spoken it.” (Isaiah 40:5).

"In that same year (1890) Bahá’u’lláh’s tent, the “Tabernacle of Glory,” was raised on Mt. Carmel, “the Hill of God and His Vineyard,” the home of Elijah, extolled by Isaiah as the “mountain of the Lord,” to which “all nations shall flow.” Four times He visited Haifa, His last visit being no less than three months long. In the course of one of these visits, when His tent was pitched in the vicinity of the Carmelite Monastery, He, the “Lord of the Vineyard,” revealed the Tablet of Carmel, remarkable for its allusions and prophecies. On another occasion He pointed out Himself to ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, as He stood on the slopes of that mountain, the site which was to serve as the permanent resting-place of the Báb, and on which a befitting mausoleum was later to be erected." (God Passes By, p. 194)

The Baha’i World Centre is on Mount Carmel... How do you explain that?

 

[nPeace]

Daniel 7 is about Baha’u’llah, who was one like the Son of man, the return of the Son of man who came in the clouds of men’s ignorance.

Daniel 7:13-14 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Jesus ascended into heaven in the clouds. Baha’u’llah, one like a son of man, descended from the clouds of heaven of the Will of God, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. These verses are about an earthly Kingdom, not a heavenly Kingdom. Jesus’ Kingdom was in heaven, Baha’u’llah’s Kingdom was on earth.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.


Those verses don’t help your case because they are not about Jesus; they are about Baha’u’llah.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Baha’u’llah was the return of the Son of man and one like the Son of man.

Luke 22:28-30 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations. And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The kingdom Jesus appointed was not a kingdom Jesus would rule. The kingdom was not of this world, it was in heaven.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Psalms 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

If we see what Zion Means to a Jewish Person, then we can then draw conclusions as to what Zion really is.

"..Judaism. Zion is the Hebrew name for a hill south of the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, upon which was built the City of David. ... The location of the Temple, and in particular its Holy of Holies (innermost sanctum), is the most holy place in the world for the Jewish people, seen as the connection between God and humanity."

"In biblical usage, however, “Mount Zion” often means the city rather than the hill itself. ... Mount Zion is the place where Yahweh, the God of Israel, dwells (Isaiah 8:18; Psalm 74:2), the place where he is king (Isaiah 24:23) and where he has installed his king, David (Psalm 2:6)"

Thus it is Logical that Zion moves to where God chooses to give and place His Messenger.

Also consider;
"The word Zion literally means 'marked' or 'distinctive.' It refers to those inner qualities that distinguish the Jewish people - a 'people who dwells alone' with their own unique spiritual traits."

As evidenced by the fact that the Jewish prophecies were fulfilled there, that holy hill is Mt. Carmel.

Isaiah 35 King James Version (KJV)

35 The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.2 It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the Lord, and the excellency of our God.

Above Haifa, Israel, stands Mt. Carmel, proclaiming the Glory of the Lord has come.

Let me walk with you.
Daniel 7:13-14 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought [Bahaullah] near before him. And there was given [Bahaullah] dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve [Bahaullah]: [Bahaullah's] dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and [Bahaullah] kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Bahaullah came and went.
All people, nations, and languages did not serve Bahaullah.
Bahaullah never had a dominion that last forever.

If you say it's a figurative kingdom on earth, the only ones who take that seriously in connection with God's kingdom, are Bahais and Bahai believers.
That's okay with me.

Take care Trailblazer, and @Tony Bristow-Stagg

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Poor Daniel ...

 

[nPeace]

The simple answer is that Baha'u'llah is the appointed king of God's kingdom who was installed On Zion, God's holy mountain, unless you have another explanation as to why all the prophecies have been fulfilled and still no Jesus...

Isaiah prophesied that the Plain of Sharon and the holy mountain, Carmel, would both be centres for the light and presence of the ‘Glory of the Lord’ in the last days. He said:

“The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.” (Isaiah 35:1).

“It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.” (Isaiah 35:2).

“And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.” (Isaiah 35:10).

Again in the chapter preceding the one in which he, Isaiah, promises that God will raise up a ‘righteous man from the East’, he foretells:

“And the Glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of God hath spoken it.” (Isaiah 40:5).

"In that same year (1890) Bahá’u’lláh’s tent, the “Tabernacle of Glory,” was raised on Mt. Carmel, “the Hill of God and His Vineyard,” the home of Elijah, extolled by Isaiah as the “mountain of the Lord,” to which “all nations shall flow.” Four times He visited Haifa, His last visit being no less than three months long. In the course of one of these visits, when His tent was pitched in the vicinity of the Carmelite Monastery, He, the “Lord of the Vineyard,” revealed the Tablet of Carmel, remarkable for its allusions and prophecies. On another occasion He pointed out Himself to ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, as He stood on the slopes of that mountain, the site which was to serve as the permanent resting-place of the Báb, and on which a befitting mausoleum was later to be erected." (God Passes By, p. 194)

The Baha’i World Centre is on Mount Carmel... How do you explain that?

The building didn't just drop there from heaven Trailblazer. You guys chose the spot, based on your beliefs. Isn't that so?
Jim Jones chose his location too, and so did David Koresh. Were their location blessed or special because they chose it?

Anyhow, take care. I am out.

 

[Trailblazer]

Fourth heaven? Wherever that came from makes no difference.
Whether the son of man is sitting, standing, or running, does not matter.
The fact is, after his ascension to heaven, Jesus is continually identified as the son of man.
So for anyone to claim that the son of man is someone other than Jesus, is to contradict the scriptures,

What does the Son of Man mean in Hebrew?

"Son of man" is the translation of one Hebrew and one Aramaic phrase used in the Hebrew Bible. ... As generally interpreted by Jews, "son of man" denotes mankind generally in contrast to deity or godhead, with special reference to their weakness and frailty.

Son of man (Judaism) - Wikipedia

Baha'u'llah was ther RETURN of the Son of man. The same Jesus in the same body is not going to return to earth and build a kingdom, He said so.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

because when Jesus said, “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man" and " The Son of man will send his angels" (Matthew 13:37-41)
". . .the Son of man is to come in the glory of his Father with his angels" (Matthew 16:27)
". . .when the Son of man sits down on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will sit on 12 thrones. . ." (Matthew 19:28)
"Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (Matthew 24:30)
...and all the rest... (Matthew 24:36-44 ; Matthew 25:31)
They refer to no one else but Jesus.

They refer to no one else but Baha'u'llah, who has already fulfilled all the prophecies in the Old Testament and the New Testament. William Sears, Thief in the Night

Just as the scriptures say of Michael (Daniel 12:1 - “During that time Michael will stand up, . . .), the son of man will conquer.

Sorry, but those verses do not refer to Jesus, since 1844 came and went and still no Jesus; not that anyone should have been surprised if they were conversant with the Bible (John 14:19, John 17:4, John 17:11, John 19:30, John 18:36)

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Daniel 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Daniel 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

The 2,300 years came in 1844 and the book was unsealed by Baha’u’llah. That math is explained in Some Answered Questions, 10: TRADITIONAL PROOFS EXEMPLIFIED FROM THE BOOK OF DANIEL.

 

[Trailblazer]

The building didn't just drop there from heaven Trailblazer. You guys chose the spot, based on your beliefs. Isn't that so?
Jim Jones chose his location too, and so did David Koresh. Were their location blessed or special because they chose it?

Anyhow, take care. I am out.

Oh please. spare me the pain of it all.

No, the Baha'is did not choose the spot, based on our beliefs.
The spot is where all the OT prophecies that refer to Mt. Carmel were fulfilled by Baha'u'llah, prophecies which Baha'u'llah did not set out to fulfill, because He had no control over what happened to Him.

Please note that Baha’u’llah had no control over His own destiny for the last 40 years of His Life after He declared His mission because He was deemed a prisoner of the government He was banished and exiled from place to place. The following prophecy was fulfilled by these exiles and banishments.

Micah 7:12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

He shall come from Assyria: At that time Assyria was a large area. Baha’u’llah and His family lived in the part that was Persia, now Iran, in the city of Tihran.

and from the fortified cities: Baha’u’llah was banished from city to city: After being released from the Black Pit dungeon in Tihran in 1852, His family and companions had only a short time before being sent to the fortified city of Baghdad. While living in Baghdad, He gained such a large following that the enemies where shocked. Right away He was banished again, this time to the fortified city of Istanbul.

The Governor of the city refused many times to fulfill the orders that he received to banish Him again. Finally forced to follow orders, Baha’u’llah was banished again to the fortified city of Adrianople. He was honored and praised, and shown respect everywhere, until He was finally sent to the most horrific of all places, the fortress of Akka, where it was expected that He would succumb to the terrible conditions.

and from the fortress even to the river: It was while in Baghdad that the Tigris river became a special place, as Baha’u’llah crossed it to the Ridvan Garden. April 21, 1863 was the fulfilment of prophecy, as that was when Baha’u’llah declared to those around Him His Station as the Manifestation of God.

and from sea to sea: After His banishment in Baghdad, His exile was by way of the Black Sea. Still a prisoner He crossed the Black Sea from Sinope on His way to Constantinople. After the banishment in Adrianople, He crossed the Mediterranean Sea from Gallipolis in Turkey, embarking at Alexandria, Egypt, then on to the fortress of 'Akka, the most desolate of cities.

and from mountain to mountain: The time in Baghdad was turbulent with opposition. To protect His family and companions Baha’u’llah went to the Kurdistan mountains. There He lived in poverty, but the area was magnetized by His presence. After two years, He was persuaded to return to Baghdad.

The other mountain was in Israel, Mount Carmel, where He had docked before His final journey to Akka. Later He had a chance to return to Mount Carmel, to pitch His tent. Here He wrote the Tablet Of Carmel, surrounded by pilgrims looking for the return of Christ to descend from heaven. Mount Carmel is the headquarters of the Baha’i Faith.
(Notes from: William Sears, Thief in the Night)

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Let me walk with you.
Daniel 7:13-14 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought [Bahaullah] near before him. And there was given [Bahaullah] dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve [Bahaullah]: [Bahaullah's] dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and [Bahaullah] kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Bahaullah came and went.
All people, nations, and languages did not serve Bahaullah.
Bahaullah never had a dominion that last forever.

If you say it's a figurative kingdom on earth, the only ones who take that seriously in connection with God's kingdom, are Bahais and Bahai believers.
That's okay with me.

Take care Trailblazer, and @Tony Bristow-Stagg

Baha'u'llah means 'Glory of God'

The Glory of God, the Father, is found in all Messengers and found in Jesus the Christ, the Son.

Regards Tony