The Son of Man and the Saints of Daniel 7

[Trailblazer]

At the soon coming ' time of separation' to take place on Earth the figurative haughty ' goats ' outnumber the humble ' sheep'- Matthew 25:31-33,37
But it will be the figurative 'sheep ' that will come through the great tribulation of Revelation 7:14,9.
After the end of Jesus' 1,000-year governmental reign over Earth then ALL right-hearted resurrected peoples, nations and languages will serve..........
Now is the coming ' final judgement ' that is to take place among the living on Earth - Matthew 25:31-33.
After Jesus hands back God's kingdom to his God, then God will be all things to everyone and everyone will serve Him - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26.

I believe that Christ has already returned and the judgment is upon is. The sheep are now being separated from the goats.
In this new age, the Age of Fulfillment, the Kingdom of God will be built on earth as it is in heaven, as Jesus said.

The Day of Judgment​

Christ spoke much in parables about a great Day of Judgment when “the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father … and … shall reward every man according to his works” (Matt. xvi, 27). He compares this Day to the time of harvest, when the tares are burned and the wheat gathered into barns:—

… so shall it be in the end of this world [consummation of the age]. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.—Matt. xiii, 40–43.​

The phrase “end of the world” used in the Authorized Version of the Bible in this and similar passages has led many to suppose that when the Day of Judgment comes, the earth will suddenly be destroyed, but this is evidently a mistake. The true translation of the phrase appears to be “the consummation or end of the age.” Christ teaches that the Kingdom of the Father is to be established on earth, as well as in heaven. He teaches us to pray: “Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” In the parable of the Vineyard, when the Father, the Lord of the Vineyard, comes to destroy the wicked husbandmen, He does not destroy the vineyard (the world) also, but lets it out to other husbandmen, who will render Him the fruits in their season. The earth is not to be destroyed, but to be renewed and regenerated. Christ speaks of that day on another occasion as “the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory.” St. Peter speaks of it as “the times of refreshing,” “the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.” The Day of Judgment of which Christ speaks is evidently identical with the coming of the Lord of Hosts, the Father, which was prophesied by Isaiah and the other Old Testament prophets; a time of terrible punishment for the wicked, but a time in which justice shall be established and righteousness rule, on earth as in heaven.

In the Bahá’í interpretation, the coming of each Manifestation of God is a Day of Judgment, but the coming of the supreme Manifestation of Bahá’u’lláh is the great Day of Judgment for the world cycle in which we are living. The trumpet blast of which Christ and Muhammad and many other prophets speak is the call of the Manifestation, which is sounded for all who are in heaven and on earth—the embodied and the disembodied. The meeting with God, through His Manifestation, is, for those who desire to meet Him, the gateway to the Paradise of knowing and loving Him, and living in love with all His creatures. Those, on the other hand, who prefer their own way to God’s way, as revealed by the Manifestation, thereby consign themselves to the hell of selfishness, error and enmity.

Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, pp. 219-220

 

[Trailblazer]

The question really is 'why have people stopped looking for God'?

I do not think people have stopped looking, they are just confused as to where to look, so many have given up.
I believe it is our job to try to dispel the confusion to the best of our ability, since we are not confused.

“What “oppression” is greater than that which hath been recounted? What “oppression” is more grievous than that a soul seeking the truth, and wishing to attain unto the knowledge of God, should know not where to go for it and from whom to seek it? For opinions have sorely differed, and the ways unto the attainment of God have multiplied. This “oppression” is the essential feature of every Revelation. Unless it cometh to pass, the Sun of Truth will not be made manifest. For the break of the morn of divine guidance must needs follow the darkness of the night of error. For this reason, in all chronicles and traditions reference hath been made unto these things, namely that iniquity shall cover the surface of the earth and darkness shall envelop mankind. As the traditions referred to are well known, and as the purpose of this servant is to be brief, He will refrain from quoting the text of these traditions.” The Kitab-i-Iqan, pp. 31-32

 

[firedragon]

What makes you think that Baha'u'llah did not have knowledge of the Bible? Baha'u'llah referred to the Bible in
The Kitáb-i-Íqán but He also explained why He did not dwell upon it in this conclusion from a epistle on Abraham and Moses. Dwelling on the past prevents us from focusing upon what God has revealed in this age.

“…… To this testify the records of the sacred books. Were the details to be mentioned, this epistle would swell into a book. Moreover, it is not Our wish to relate the stories of the days that are past. God is Our witness that what We even now mention is due solely to Our tender affection for thee, that haply the poor of the earth may attain the shores of the sea of wealth, the ignorant be led unto the ocean of divine knowledge, and they that thirst for understanding partake of the Salsabíl of divine wisdom. Otherwise, this servant regardeth the consideration of such records a grave mistake and a grievous transgression.”
The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 63

And again, regarding the great flood, Baha’u’llah wrote that we should all turn to His Revelation and disregard the stories from the older scriptures:

“To any one that hath read the book of Jük it is clear and evident how much the accounts given by the various books have differed.
Please God thou wilt turn thine eyes towards the Most Great Revelation, and entirely disregard these conflicting tales and traditions.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 174-175

From a Baha'i perspective, those days are past and this is a new age of mankind. Why are we even talking about the Bible anymore? It is a history book and personally, I believe it belongs on a shelf. The only reason I talk about the Bible is because I am conversing with Christians. I don't know any Baha'is who talk about the Bible except on forums. We have a new Revelation from God based upon the Writings of Baha'u'llah. Do Jews and Christians talk about those?

I understand that your theology is that Bahaullah and the new dispensation supersedes all previous ones. I get it, and you have all the right and place to believe so. This is purely for discussion purposes.

Think of Bahaullah statement about the Son of Man coming down in the clouds. You see, the Hebrew text doesnt say that. It says "And, behold, there came with the clouds of heaven One like unto a son of man". But Bahaullah says "and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven" in the Kithab I Iqan. That is a misquotation, and he quotes it at least twice in the same book. Now the problem is that the writer of Matthew for example has taken this quotation from the Septuagint, not the original Tanakh which is a misquotation of the Tanakh, thus Bahaullah making the same statement shows that he did not have the knowledge of it.

Now let me ask you a question. Bahaullah says that Moses was the revealer of the pentateuch. The pentateuch is the collection of the the first 5 books in the Tanakh. Did not he know that scholarship has proven that there are many indications that the pentateuch was not revealed by Moses? Can you show me evidence that the pentateuch was revealed to Moses? Not faith statements, but evidence.

 

[firedragon]

The question really is 'why have people stopped looking for God'?

Not at all Tony. See, when you make faith statements like that as a response, you might get other peoples faith statements. If you say maybe people stopped looking for God, one could say that maybe the decline in growth rate is because people are actually looking for God instead.

Thats an example of a rhetorical exchange.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

.

Think of Bahaullah statement about the Son of Man coming down in the clouds. You see, the Hebrew text doesnt say that. It says "And, behold, there came with the clouds of heaven One like unto a son of man". But Bahaullah says "and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven" in the Kithab I Iqan. That is a misquotation, and he quotes it at least twice in the same book. Now the problem is that the writer of Matthew for example has taken this quotation from the Septuagint, not the original Tanakh which is a misquotation of the Tanakh, thus Bahaullah making the same statement shows that he did not have the knowledge of it.

In the Tanakh the first and the one like unto the Son of man are yet to cone.

In the New Testament the Son of man has come and the one like unto the Son of Man is yet to come. The One like, has now become the return of the Son of Man, as The first Christ as Jesus had already come, the 2nd still a promise.

Regards Tony

.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I believe that Christ has already returned and the judgment is upon is. The sheep are now being separated from the goats.
In this new age, the Age of Fulfillment, the Kingdom of God will be built on earth as it is in heaven, as Jesus said.

The Day of Judgment​

Christ spoke much in parables about a great Day of Judgment when “the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father … and … shall reward every man according to his works” (Matt. xvi, 27). He compares this Day to the time of harvest, when the tares are burned and the wheat gathered into barns:—

… so shall it be in the end of this world [consummation of the age]. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.—Matt. xiii, 40–43.​

The phrase “end of the world” used in the Authorized Version of the Bible in this and similar passages has led many to suppose that when the Day of Judgment comes, the earth will suddenly be destroyed, but this is evidently a mistake. The true translation of the phrase appears to be “the consummation or end of the age.” Christ teaches that the Kingdom of the Father is to be established on earth, as well as in heaven. He teaches us to pray: “Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” In the parable of the Vineyard, when the Father, the Lord of the Vineyard, comes to destroy the wicked husbandmen, He does not destroy the vineyard (the world) also, but lets it out to other husbandmen, who will render Him the fruits in their season. The earth is not to be destroyed, but to be renewed and regenerated. Christ speaks of that day on another occasion as “the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory.” St. Peter speaks of it as “the times of refreshing,” “the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.” The Day of Judgment of which Christ speaks is evidently identical with the coming of the Lord of Hosts, the Father, which was prophesied by Isaiah and the other Old Testament prophets; a time of terrible punishment for the wicked, but a time in which justice shall be established and righteousness rule, on earth as in heaven.

In the Bahá’í interpretation, the coming of each Manifestation of God is a Day of Judgment, but the coming of the supreme Manifestation of Bahá’u’lláh is the great Day of Judgment for the world cycle in which we are living. The trumpet blast of which Christ and Muhammad and many other prophets speak is the call of the Manifestation, which is sounded for all who are in heaven and on earth—the embodied and the disembodied. The meeting with God, through His Manifestation, is, for those who desire to meet Him, the gateway to the Paradise of knowing and loving Him, and living in love with all His creatures. Those, on the other hand, who prefer their own way to God’s way, as revealed by the Manifestation, thereby consign themselves to the hell of selfishness, error and enmity.

Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, pp. 219-220

If God's final judgement is already upon us then there would be No more hope of repenting.
Since there is still time to repent so as Not to perish ( 2 Peter 3:9) then the good news 'door' is still open to humanity - Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8
I find we are in the last days of badness on Earth as described at 2 Timothy 3:1-5,13
With Jesus' 'glory time' still ahead of us - Matthew 25:31-33.

Yes, God's kingdom ( Daniel 2:44 ) will govern over Earth with Jesus, as King of God's kingdom government for a thousand years.
Then, Jesus will hand back God's kingdom to his God - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Not at all Tony. See, when you make faith statements like that as a response, you might get other peoples faith statements. If you say maybe people stopped looking for God, one could say that maybe the decline in growth rate is because people are actually looking for God instead.

Thats an example of a rhetorical exchange.

And not knowing where to look as per Trailblazer posted reply.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

If God's final judgement is already upon us then there would be No more hope of repenting.

From my point of view, there is no need to repent. The sheep are still being separated from the goats. Now all we need to do is recognize Baha'u'llah, who is God's Manifestation for this age, the return of Christ and the Messiah. Then we become the sheep who followed Jesus.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

From my point of view, there is no need to repent. The sheep are still being separated from the goats. Now all we need to do is recognize Baha'u'llah, who is God's Manifestation for this age, the return of Christ and the Messiah. Then we become the sheep who followed Jesus.

Well, true we are all imperfect in that we fall short of God's requirements, but the return of Christ as Messiah will undo all the damage Satan and Adam brought upon humanity .

Both the 'sheep and the goats' need to repent so as Not to perish ( be destroyed ) - 2 Peter 3:9
Now is the time for the sheep-like ones to remain faithful because they already are the sheep who now follow Jesus.
Jesus counts the sheep as righteous ones - Matthew 25:37 - even when still imperfect at this time.

 

[Trailblazer]

Think of Bahaullah statement about the Son of Man coming down in the clouds. You see, the Hebrew text doesnt say that. It says "And, behold, there came with the clouds of heaven One like unto a son of man". But Bahaullah says "and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven" in the Kithab I Iqan. That is a misquotation, and he quotes it at least twice in the same book.

What makes you think that Baha'u'llah was quoting the Hebrew text? I looked in the Kitab-i-Iqan and I saw no footnote.

Now let me ask you a question. Bahaullah says that Moses was the revealer of the pentateuch.

No, that is not what Baha'u'llah wrote. He wrote that the Pentateuch was revealed in the "days of Moses.":

“That city is none other than the Word of God revealed in every age and dispensation. In the days of Moses it was the Pentateuch; in the days of Jesus the Gospel; in the days of Muḥammad the Messenger of God the Qur’án; in this day the Bayán; and in the dispensation of Him Whom God will make manifest His own Book—the Book unto which all the Books of former Dispensations must needs be referred, the Book which standeth amongst them all transcendent and supreme.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 199-200

The pentateuch is the collection of the the first 5 books in the Tanakh. Did not he know that scholarship has proven that there are many indications that the pentateuch was not revealed by Moses? Can you show me evidence that the pentateuch was revealed to Moses? Not faith statements, but evidence.

I do not know what Baha'u'llah knew, only what He wrote.

No, I cannot show you that evidence, and it does not really matter to me who revealed it because I consider it ancient history which has no applicability to the age we live in.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, true we are all imperfect in that we fall short of God's requirements, but the return of Christ as Messiah will undo all the damage Satan and Adam brought upon humanity .

The man Jesus Christ never promised to return to earth and do anything. Jesus said His work was finished on earth and He was no more in the world. Why do Christians keep insisting the same Jesus is coming back when that is contradicted in their own Bible? There are no verses wherein Jesus said he was coming back to earth, not even one verse.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

These two verses in John 18 completely negate that Jesus is the King of this world or that Jesus will ever come to this world to rule it, and they fit perfectly together with John 17:4 and John 17:11. Jesus came into this world to bear witness unto the truth about God. He did that so there is no more reason for Jesus to come back to this world again. That is why Jesus said “I am no more in the world.”

 

[firedragon]

.


In the Tanakh the first and the one like unto the Son of man are yet to cone.

In the New Testament the Son of man has come and the one like unto the Son of Man is yet to come. The One like, has now become the return of the Son of Man, as The first Christ as Jesus had already come, the 2nd still a promise.

Regards Tony

.

You have not read my comment Tony. Bahaullah doesnt say what you say. He just quotes, and I have given you a quote.

In my opinion misrepresented even what Bahaullah said in the Kithab I Iqan.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You have not read my comment Tony. Bahaullah doesnt say what you say. He just quotes, and I have given you a quote.

In my opinion misrepresented even what Bahaullah said in the Kithab I Iqan.

That is ok Firedragon, I was just offering other thoughts.

Personally I see Baha'u'llah was able to know all what Jesus had offered.

I see that talking about the past has not been fruitful, it is helping me to see I need to go and tend to the new garden and let the old gardens be ploughed under.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

What makes you think that Baha'u'llah was quoting the Hebrew text? I looked in the Kitab-i-Iqan and I saw no footnote.

So what was he quoting? It was his own quote?

Are you saying that when speaks of the Son of man he is not quoting anything but himself?

No, that is not what Baha'u'llah wrote. He wrote that the Pentateuch was revealed in the "days of Moses.":

“That city is none other than the Word of God revealed in every age and dispensation. In the days of Moses it was the Pentateuch; in the days of Jesus the Gospel; in the days of Muḥammad the Messenger of God the Qur’án; in this day the Bayán; and in the dispensation of Him Whom God will make manifest His own Book—the Book unto which all the Books of former Dispensations must needs be referred, the Book which standeth amongst them all transcendent and supreme.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 199-200

Maybe you missed this in the same book. Your own scripture.

"Moreover, those whom they had formerly known were Moses, the Revealer of the Pentateuch, and Jesus, the Author of the Gospel." - Kithab I iqan, 58.

I do not know what Baha'u'llah knew, only what He wrote.

No, I cannot show you that evidence, and it does not really matter to me who revealed it because I consider it ancient history which has no applicability to the age we live in.

Well. It is a common response that "it doesnt matter to me", which means you dont care or you dont wish to answer a question about your faith and your God.

Peace.

 

[firedragon]

That is ok Firedragon, I was just offering other thoughts.

Personally I see Baha'u'llah was able to know all what Jesus had offered.

I see that talking about the past has not been fruitful, it is helping me to see I need to go and tend to the new garden and let the old gardens be ploughed under.

Regards Tony

Do you think that as Traiblazer has alluded, Bahaullah may not be even quoting the Tanakh?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So what was he quoting? It was his own quote?

Are you saying that when speaks of the Son of man he is not quoting anything but himself?

This is an amazing thing about a Messenger as they are the Word they offer.

Baha'u'llah offered it was he that talked to Moses.

They speak as God, while not being God.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

So what was he quoting? It was his own quote?

Are you saying that when speaks of the Son of man he is not quoting anything but himself?

That is correct, Baha'u'llah was speaking from His own innate knowledge as well as from what was revealed to Him by God.

Maybe you missed this in the same book. Your own scripture.

"Moreover, those whom they had formerly known were Moses, the Revealer of the Pentateuch, and Jesus, the Author of the Gospel." - Kithab I iqan, 58.

No, I did not see that, but now that I have seen it I figured out that Baha'u'llah was not speaking specifically of who wrote the texts. I know that because I know (as Baha'u'lah wrote in another Tablet) that Jesus was not the Author of the Gospel because Jesus did not write the Gospel. Thus it is obvious to me that "Revealer of the Pentateuch" means that Moses was primarily responsible for what was revealed therein.

Well. It is a common response that "it doesnt matter to me", which means you dont care or you dont wish to answer a question about your faith and your God.

No, it means I cannot answer questions about other faiths because I am not familiar with them.
Do you ask Jews or Christians about the Baha'i Faith?

 

[firedragon]

This is an amazing thing about a Messenger as they are the Word they offer.

Baha'u'llah offered it was he that talked to Moses.

They speak as God, while not being God.

Regards Tony

So Bahaullah himself revealed the Pentateuch to Moses?

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you think that as Traiblazer has alluded, Bahaullah may not be even quoting the Tanakh?

Was Jesus quoting the Tanakh when He talked about the Son of man in the clouds of heaven?

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

 

[firedragon]

That is correct, Baha'u'llah was speaking from His own innate knowledge as well as from what was revealed to Him by God.

Okay. If you say that Bahaullah was not quoting the Bible but himself, then I must accept it as your theological point of view. Then the Bible prophecy cannot be about him because he not quoting the bible

No, I did not see that, but now that I have seen it I figured out that Baha'u'llah was not speaking specifically of who wrote the texts. I know that because I know (as Baha'u'lah wrote in another Tablet) that Jesus was not the Author of the Gospel because Jesus did not write the Gospel. Thus it is obvious to me that "Revealer of the Pentateuch" means that Moses was primarily responsible for what was revealed therein.

So you changed your position about it. Fine. Bahaullah says Jesus is the author of the Gospel. Now you say that he said in another tablet that Jesus was not the author of the Gospel. Thats a contradiction.

Please quote me this Tablet.

No, it means I cannot answer questions about other faiths because I am not familiar with them.
Do you ask Jews or Christians about the Baha'i Faith?

I didnt ask about any other faith other than yours. Bahaullah is quoting verbatim the "misunderstood quotes", and my question is about the authenticity of it because of its discrepancy.

You say "you dont care". I never asked about any other faith, nor did I ask Christians or Jews about the Bahai faith. I asked a Bahai about the Bahai faith.

I hope you understand brother. It was you guys who inspired me to read your own scripture. Only two days ago I read the Kithab I Iqan, in both languages because of one of your own's request. Thats why today I know the book. Three days ago, I did not except for a few snippets here and there.

Peace.