The Son of Man and the Saints of Daniel 7

[Trailblazer]

Let me walk with you.
Daniel 7:13-14 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought [Bahaullah] near before him. And there was given [Bahaullah] dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve [Bahaullah]: [Bahaullah's] dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and [Bahaullah] kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Bahaullah came and went.
All people, nations, and languages did not serve Bahaullah.
Bahaullah never had a dominion that last forever.

If you say it's a figurative kingdom on earth, the only ones who take that seriously in connection with God's kingdom, are Bahais and Bahai believers.
That's okay with me.

Take care Trailblazer, and @Tony Bristow-Stagg

Let me walk with you.
Jesus Christ came and went.
All people, nations, and languages did not serve Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ never had a dominion that last forever.

If you say it's a kingdom on earth, the only ones who take that seriously in connection with God's kingdom, are Christians and Christian believers.

Jesus Christ never had and never will have a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, will serve, not unless everyone converts to Christianity, but the statistics show that the growth rate of Christianity is much lower than that of Islam and the Baha'i Faith.

The growth rates of the Abrahamic religions from 1910-2010 were as follows: Judaism .11%, Christianity 1.32%, Islam 1.97%, and Baha’i Faith 3.54%.
Statistics from: Growth of religion - Wikipedia

What Christians believe is okay with me since that have nothing to back up their beliefs, not even their own Bible.

 

[rational experiences]

What I learnt as a spiritual conscious human owned life observation.

Today many human groups with strong convictions gather. Sing. Praise life. Success in life. To be healed.

Using knowledge of baby to adult human life cruelly sacrificed in the past.

Brother scientist did it to holy living spiritual brother.

These group gatherings my own a large proportion of irradiated brain minds who lived as drug takers. Alcoholics. Abusive yet regretful.

The get irradiated again. The reason why they felt so lost before. A greater atmospheric baptism saves them.

Consciously they realise they nearly died.

They join the human cause to teach.

Their groups are mentally memory recorded. They join Jesus life heavenly memories. Know his suffering. Know our suffering.

These group meetings recorded become memory. To invoke spirituality in the lost single minded self destructive irradiated psyche.

They know they are doing healing work for their spirituality and human brothers sisters harmed by the sciences.

I respect their work. I do not need to do their work. I am doing my own.

What a human conscious memory says involving past human life memory. Self life being sacrificed conscious harmed. Motivated to heal.

How consciousness to think is just thinking. How memory and heavenly changed affects their life beliefs.

Proven by males who claim sex after death when it is just heavenly natural life recorded. Told twice naturally then artificial subliminal. Self coercive.

Two human parent lives. Two natural human memories. Plus Ai subliminal effect.

Reason to reason gave me the answers. Not sought for any purpose other than a truthful explanation.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The answers to the questions that we need to have answers to are all in the Baha'i Writings, although sometimes we need to go digging for them..

You side-step my question.

 

[Aupmanyav]

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, .."

What silly writing. Creation is much more than those who weep for Jesus. What sacrifice? He wanted to start a rebellion, the rulers crushed him. What evidence? Have these people ever uttered anything but superstitious falsehood which propelled humans to commit atrocities all over the world?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Jesus Christ never had a dominion that last forever.
If you say it's a kingdom on earth, the only ones who take that seriously in connection with God's kingdom, are Christians and Christian believers.
Jesus Christ never had and never will have a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, will serve, not unless everyone converts to Christianity, but the statistics show that the growth rate of Christianity is much lower than that of Islam and the Baha'i Faith.
The growth rates of the Abrahamic religions from 1910-2010 were as follows: Judaism .11%, Christianity 1.32%, Islam 1.97%, and Baha’i Faith 3.54%.
Statistics from: Growth of religion - Wikipedia

See here the example of brotherhood and universal peace. Disgusting.

 

[Trailblazer]

What silly writing. Creation is much more than those who weep for Jesus. What sacrifice? He wanted to start a rebellion, the rulers crushed him. What evidence? Have these people ever uttered anything but superstitious falsehood which propelled humans to commit atrocities all over the world?

Some people see the evidence of Jesus and some don't.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Some people see the evidence of Jesus and some don't.

Why is it like that? Why do not all people see the evidence that you have for Jesus and your 19th Century Iranian preacher?
Because the evidence that you offer is not at all eligible to be termed as evidence.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Poor Daniel ...

I see Daniel is rejoicing that the visions and prophecy was fulfilled.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

The Bab ushered in the new age in 1844 and that is when the scientific discoveries took off.

Not really. ITs post hoc ergo propter hoc.

 

[firedragon]

The growth rates of the Abrahamic religions from 1910-2010 were as follows: Judaism .11%, Christianity 1.32%, Islam 1.97%, and Baha’i Faith 3.54%.
Statistics from: Growth of religion - Wikipedia

Why has growth rate of the Bahai's declined so drastically?

 

[firedragon]

Let me walk with you.
Jesus Christ came and went.
All people, nations, and languages did not serve Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ never had a dominion that last forever.

If you say it's a kingdom on earth, the only ones who take that seriously in connection with God's kingdom, are Christians and Christian believers.

Jesus Christ never had and never will have a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, will serve, not unless everyone converts to Christianity, but the statistics show that the growth rate of Christianity is much lower than that of Islam and the Baha'i Faith.

The growth rates of the Abrahamic religions from 1910-2010 were as follows: Judaism .11%, Christianity 1.32%, Islam 1.97%, and Baha’i Faith 3.54%.
Statistics from: Growth of religion - Wikipedia

What Christians believe is okay with me since that have nothing to back up their beliefs, not even their own Bible.

Since you are engaging in this post, do you believe that Jesus was God's son?

 

[Trailblazer]

Since you are engaging in this post, do you believe that Jesus was God's son?

Figuratively, but not literally, because God has no biological offspring.

"Although the Bahá'í writings say nothing about the title 'Son of God (or 'only begotten Son of God, [John 3:16]) there is much that can be said about it from a Bahá'í perspective. 'Son of God is an extremely important title of Jesus for Christians, so much so that in the minds of many Christians 'Son of God' defines the relationship of Jesus with His Father. But often Christians do not think about the symbolic meaning of the title; indeed, many seem unaware that the title is symbolic at all.

What does the term 'Son' mean? Normally, the word has a simple biological meaning, but that meaning is the very one that cannot apply to the relationship between God and Jesus, for God does not have genetic material to confer upon Jesus, nor does God have a body with which He could unite with Mary to produce a son. Christian theology never meant the term to be understood literally; as the above quote from Gregory of Nazianzus emphasizes, God begot Christ 'without passion, of course, and without reference to time, and not in a corporeal manner' ('The Third Theological Oration – On the Son' 161). The Qur'án echoes Gregory's recognition of God's transcendence when it says, 'Allah is only one God. Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that He should have a son' (Qur'án 5:171).

Consequently, the word 'Son' must be understood in a metaphorical or symbolic sense; the same is true of the verb 'begotten' when applied to Jesus. One possible meaning of Son, rejected early by the mainstream of Christian theology, was the 'adoptionist' interpretation; that Jesus was an ordinary man, 'adopted' by God as His Son. The Bahá'í writings would also seem to reject this approach, since they do not see Manifestations of God as ordinary human beings; rather, the Bahá'í writings indicate that the souls of the Manifestations are pre-existent, in contrast to ordinary human beings, whose souls come into existence at the moment of conception. Manifestations are indeed unique creations of God, as the phrase 'only begotten' attempts to convey; it describes Jesus's mode of creation through an analogy with the physical world, an analogy that Gregory of Nazianzus, by qualifying the word in the above passage, admits has its limitations.

Another symbolic interpretation of the term 'Son' would be to argue that Jesus was the 'spiritual' Son of God. Various interpreters have taken this approach. One could say that all humans, including Jesus, are 'sons' of God, in other words, that all were created by God. This is true, but it undercuts the uniqueness of the title's application to Christ, probably unnecessarily, and undercuts the distinction that Bahá'í would make between Jesus Christ and creation."

Jesus Christ in the Bahá'í Writings

 

[Trailblazer]

Why has growth rate of the Bahai's declined so drastically?

The growth rates of the Baha’i Faith were higher than Islam from 1910 to 2010 because it includes the “formative age” of the Baha’i Faith (1921-1944) FOURTH PERIOD: THE INCEPTION OF THE FORMATIVE AGE OF THE BAHÁ’Í FAITH 1921–1944

The goal of the Baha’i Faith administration has not always been to increase numbers of adherents but rather to expand to as many locations as possible around the world. These goals have been met. The Baha’i Faith has spread to over 250 countries and territories and is almost as widespread as Christianity. Most of this happened during the “formative age” of the Baha’i Faith (1921-1944)

Growth of the Baha’i Faith has slowed down since 2000 because the new goal is consolidation and community building, so the emphasis is not spreading the Faith all over the world as it was before in the 20th century.

Personally, I believe the primary emphasis should be on teaching the Faith, but I am not in charge of the Baha'i administration.

 

[firedragon]

Figuratively, but not literally, because God has no biological offspring.

"Although the Bahá'í writings say nothing about the title 'Son of God (or 'only begotten Son of God, [John 3:16]) there is much that can be said about it from a Bahá'í perspective. 'Son of God is an extremely important title of Jesus for Christians, so much so that in the minds of many Christians 'Son of God' defines the relationship of Jesus with His Father. But often Christians do not think about the symbolic meaning of the title; indeed, many seem unaware that the title is symbolic at all.

What does the term 'Son' mean? Normally, the word has a simple biological meaning, but that meaning is the very one that cannot apply to the relationship between God and Jesus, for God does not have genetic material to confer upon Jesus, nor does God have a body with which He could unite with Mary to produce a son. Christian theology never meant the term to be understood literally; as the above quote from Gregory of Nazianzus emphasizes, God begot Christ 'without passion, of course, and without reference to time, and not in a corporeal manner' ('The Third Theological Oration – On the Son' 161). The Qur'án echoes Gregory's recognition of God's transcendence when it says, 'Allah is only one God. Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that He should have a son' (Qur'án 5:171).

Consequently, the word 'Son' must be understood in a metaphorical or symbolic sense; the same is true of the verb 'begotten' when applied to Jesus. One possible meaning of Son, rejected early by the mainstream of Christian theology, was the 'adoptionist' interpretation; that Jesus was an ordinary man, 'adopted' by God as His Son. The Bahá'í writings would also seem to reject this approach, since they do not see Manifestations of God as ordinary human beings; rather, the Bahá'í writings indicate that the souls of the Manifestations are pre-existent, in contrast to ordinary human beings, whose souls come into existence at the moment of conception. Manifestations are indeed unique creations of God, as the phrase 'only begotten' attempts to convey; it describes Jesus's mode of creation through an analogy with the physical world, an analogy that Gregory of Nazianzus, by qualifying the word in the above passage, admits has its limitations.

Another symbolic interpretation of the term 'Son' would be to argue that Jesus was the 'spiritual' Son of God. Various interpreters have taken this approach. One could say that all humans, including Jesus, are 'sons' of God, in other words, that all were created by God. This is true, but it undercuts the uniqueness of the title's application to Christ, probably unnecessarily, and undercuts the distinction that Bahá'í would make between Jesus Christ and creation."

Jesus Christ in the Bahá'í Writings

I dont believe God has sons or daughters TB. I just asked what you believe is.

Nevertheless, the Bible says that Jesus "Monogenis". Now, this is a bit of a unique term since the Jewish Son of God is purely human, and is loved and appointed by God himself. But "monogenis" is a unique term and you quoted the verse for it already. And is unique to the Gospel according to John. See, John has all kinds of unique features and phrases that kind of exalt Jesus to a different realm altogether, but the other Synoptics actually dont though they are also through time evolving in the exaltation of Jesus.

So do you take the Johannine view of Jesus or Markan view of Jesus?

 

[firedragon]

The growth rates of the Baha’i Faith were higher than Islam from 1910 to 2010 because it includes the “formative age” of the Baha’i Faith (1921-1944) FOURTH PERIOD: THE INCEPTION OF THE FORMATIVE AGE OF THE BAHÁ’Í FAITH 1921–1944

The goal of the Baha’i Faith administration has not always been to increase numbers of adherents but rather to expand to as many locations as possible around the world. These goals have been met. The Baha’i Faith has spread to over 250 countries and territories and is almost as widespread as Christianity. Most of this happened during the “formative age” of the Baha’i Faith (1921-1944)

Growth of the Baha’i Faith has slowed down since 2000 because the new goal is consolidation and community building, so the emphasis is not spreading the Faith all over the world as it was before in the 20th century.

Personally, I believe the primary emphasis should be on teaching the Faith, but I am not in charge of the Baha'i administration.

Okay, I understand.

 

[Trailblazer]

I dont believe God has sons or daughters TB. I just asked what you believe is.

Nevertheless, the Bible says that Jesus "Monogenis". Now, this is a bit of a unique term since the Jewish Son of God is purely human, and is loved and appointed by God himself. But "monogenis" is a unique term and you quoted the verse for it already. And is unique to the Gospel according to John. See, John has all kinds of unique features and phrases that kind of exalt Jesus to a different realm altogether, but the other Synoptics actually dont though they are also through time evolving in the exaltation of Jesus.

So do you take the Johannine view of Jesus or Markan view of Jesus?

Sorry, I am not that deeply into theology so I do not know those views. I believe that Jesus was a Manifestation of God with a twofold nature, because God has conferred upon the Manifestations of God a spiritual nature that other humans do not possess:

“Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” And in like manner, the words: “Arise, O Muḥammad, for lo, the Lover and the Beloved are joined together and made one in Thee.” He similarly saith: “There is no distinction whatsoever between Thee and Them, except that They are Thy Servants.” The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67

 

[firedragon]

Sorry, I am not that deeply into theology so I do not know those views. I believe that Jesus was a Manifestation of God with a twofold nature, because God has conferred upon the Manifestations of God a spiritual nature that other humans do not possess:

Actually its not really a theological view, but a historical view.

Dont misunderstand me when I say this, but my thinking is that if Bahaullah was Gods manifestation, he should have had better knowledge of the Bible. I can't say I am ultimately correct because I am not God, but this is how I feel. All the time, with all interactions.

There are so many things that I think Bahaullah relied upon the older Bible scholarship prior to many discoveries and advancement in scholarship. Many.

No disrespect intended.

 

[Trailblazer]

Actually its not really a theological view, but a historical view.

Dont misunderstand me when I say this, but my thinking is that if Bahaullah was Gods manifestation, he should have had better knowledge of the Bible. I can't say I am ultimately correct because I am not God, but this is how I feel. All the time, with all interactions.

There are so many things that I think Bahaullah relied upon the older Bible scholarship prior to many discoveries and advancement in scholarship. Many.

No disrespect intended.

What makes you think that Baha'u'llah did not have knowledge of the Bible? Baha'u'llah referred to the Bible in
The Kitáb-i-Íqán but He also explained why He did not dwell upon it in this conclusion from a epistle on Abraham and Moses. Dwelling on the past prevents us from focusing upon what God has revealed in this age.

“…… To this testify the records of the sacred books. Were the details to be mentioned, this epistle would swell into a book. Moreover, it is not Our wish to relate the stories of the days that are past. God is Our witness that what We even now mention is due solely to Our tender affection for thee, that haply the poor of the earth may attain the shores of the sea of wealth, the ignorant be led unto the ocean of divine knowledge, and they that thirst for understanding partake of the Salsabíl of divine wisdom. Otherwise, this servant regardeth the consideration of such records a grave mistake and a grievous transgression.”
The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 63

And again, regarding the great flood, Baha’u’llah wrote that we should all turn to His Revelation and disregard the stories from the older scriptures:

“To any one that hath read the book of Jük it is clear and evident how much the accounts given by the various books have differed.
Please God thou wilt turn thine eyes towards the Most Great Revelation, and entirely disregard these conflicting tales and traditions.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 174-175

From a Baha'i perspective, those days are past and this is a new age of mankind. Why are we even talking about the Bible anymore? It is a history book and personally, I believe it belongs on a shelf. The only reason I talk about the Bible is because I am conversing with Christians. I don't know any Baha'is who talk about the Bible except on forums. We have a new Revelation from God based upon the Writings of Baha'u'llah. Do Jews and Christians talk about those?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Let me walk with you.
Jesus Christ came and went. All people, nations, and languages did not serve Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ never had a dominion that last forever.
If you say it's a kingdom on earth, the only ones who take that seriously in connection with God's kingdom, are Christians and Christian believers.
Jesus Christ never had and never will have a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, will serve, not unless everyone converts to Christianity, but the statistics show that the growth rate of Christianity is much lower than that of Islam and the Baha'i Faith.
The growth rates of the Abrahamic religions from 1910-2010 were as follows: Judaism .11%, Christianity 1.32%, Islam 1.97%, and Baha’i Faith 3.54%.
What Christians believe is okay with me since that have nothing to back up their beliefs, not even their own Bible.

Interesting ^ above^ about 'Christian' growth because 'quantity does Not mean quality' - Matthew 7:21-23
'MANY' come in Jesus' name but prove false ( The weed/tares' Christians are the many found in Christendom )
The majority of people that Jesus came in contact with did Not become a follower, so it should Not surprise anyone since that is the same today.
So, I find the Bible does back up Christian / Bible beliefs.
Religious 'waters ' (people) have dried up spiritually - Revelation16:12; Revelation 17:15,1
At the soon coming ' time of separation' to take place on Earth the figurative haughty ' goats ' outnumber the humble ' sheep'- Matthew 25:31-33,37
But it will be the figurative 'sheep ' that will come through the great tribulation of Revelation 7:14,9.
After the end of Jesus' 1,000-year governmental reign over Earth then ALL right-hearted resurrected peoples, nations and languages will serve..........
Now is the coming ' final judgement ' that is to take place among the living on Earth - Matthew 25:31-33.
After Jesus hands back God's kingdom to his God, then God will be all things to everyone and everyone will serve Him - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Why has growth rate of the Bahai's declined so drastically?

The question really is 'why have people stopped looking for God'?

These difficult days have been foretold

"O ye dear friends! The world is at war and the human race is in travail and mortal combat. The dark night of hate hath taken over, and the light of good faith is blotted out. The peoples and kindreds of the earth have sharpened their claws, and are hurling themselves one against the other. It is the very foundation of the human race that is being destroyed. It is thousands of households that are vagrant and dispossessed, and every year seeth thousands upon thousands of human beings weltering in their life-blood on dusty battlefields...."

'Abdu'l-Bahá
Selections from the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá

The times will most likely get a lot darker, but the Baha'i have now built the foundations for strong communities, that can rebuild civilization from the ruins we will make from a divided hamanity. Then....

"When the victory arriveth, every man shall profess himself as believer and shall hasten to the shelter of God's Faith. Happy are they who in the days of world-encompassing trials have stood fast in the Cause and refused to swerve from its truth..."

Bahá'u'lláh
Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh

Regards Tony