The Son of Man and the Saints of Daniel 7

[Eyes to See]

I have been reading about the Bahai faith from some of its members on this website over the past few months and have made this thread especially with those of that faith in mind. Of course everyone that believes in the Bible will find the information useful, even exciting!

Following will be a humble ones understanding into these profound prophecies which were kept locked for long lasting times. Of course God himself is the one who interprets prophecy, and only his holy spirit can reveal meaning of prophecy, and it is usually done after the event, or while it is in the process of fulfillment.

Daniel himself says that some of his prophecies perplexed him and he did not understand them. But he was told that "during the time of the end" those having insight will rove about to and fro in the scriptures and true knowledge will be made known to them.

This is important to understand, because before their time God has not allowed these things to be understood. In fact the Bible tells us that even the angels desire to peer into these things.-1 Peter 1:12.


We know that Daniel 8 gives us the exact time Messiah would arrive on earth and tells us that he would die, and that God had thusly decided to have Jerusalem and its temple destroyed (Daniel 9:25-26).

But when would he rule as king? The prophecy in Daniel 4 about 7 times gives us the time period when the gentile times would end, and God's kingdom in heaven would begin to rule.

Daniel 7 gives us a glimpse into the coronation ceremony in heaven. There we are told that the "son of man" gains access to the "Ancient of Days" (Jehovah God) and he is given rulership and a kingdom and will rule forever.

Daniel 7 also tells us that the "saints" or "holy ones" will also take possession of that kingdom and their rule will last forever.

So who is the "son of man" and who are the saints that will reign with him in heaven?

Jesus Christ is the "son of man." He referred to himself as the son of man on a number of occasions, and others were inspired to call him the son of man.

For example while the first Christian martyr was about to be stoned to death for witnessing about Jesus and his Father Jehovah God to the corrupt and hypocritical Jewish leaders of the Sanhedrin, as they had condemned the master and Savior of the world Jesus Christ to death, he was given a vision of Jesus Christ in heaven at Jehovah's right hand, and referred to him as the "son of man":

"But he, being full of holy spirit, gazed into heaven and caught sight of God’s glory and of Jesus standing at God’s right hand, and he said: “Look! I see the heavens opened up and the Son of man standing at God’s right hand."-Acts 7:55-56.

The Bible clearly shows us that after Jesus went to heaven he was standing at God's right hand, and he is the "son of man." This is most appropriate because Jesus Christ is the only angel in heaven that emptied his prehuman spirit form and was transferred by holy spirit to the womb of Mary and born as a human son of Adam. So he was the "son of God" but also now he could rightly bear the title "son of man."

Now Jesus Christ, on the night before his death made a covenant with his apostles for a kingdom. And all those who are called to heavenly life also enter into that covenant. What was that covenant?:

“However, you are the ones who have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the tribes of Israel."-Luke 22:28-30.

It was for a kingdom and that they would sit on thrones. They were to be kings with Jesus. What that fully meant the apostles did not understand at that time. They most likely were thinking like the rest of the Jews at that time, that the Messiah's kingdom was going to be earthly, they would have a human king, and that he would rule from earthly Jerusalem, that is why they asked:

“Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction."-Acts 1:6, 7.

They wanted to know if Jesus was going to restore the kingdom of Israel, like in olden times. But Jesus told them that they did not get to know that at that time.

Obviously we know the answer was no. Jesus returned to heaven and shortly after poured out Jehovah's holy spirit on the 120 disciples at Pentecost of 33 C. E. and baptized them with holy spirit. They were "born again" or "born from above" at that time and came into the new covenant that went into effect.

After that time all Christians who were baptized with holy spirit would be brought into the new covenant, and the covenant with Jesus for a kingdom. Revelation 7 and 14 tells us that those who will be in Mount Zion with Jesus Christ are 144,000 bought from earth. Revelation 22 tells us that they will be in the presence of Jehovah God and Jesus Christ and will rule as kings forever and ever.

Now with all this in mind let us read Daniel's thrilling vision of these sacred secrets of the kingdom of God and see how it is unfolding!

“I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him up close before that One. And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed."-Daniel 7:13-14.

We have seen that the Bible tells us that Jesus Christ is the "son of man." Here in vision in Daniel 7 he is in heaven and is brought before his Father, Jehovah God, the Ancient of Days and is given rulership and kingdom and honor so that everyone on earth should serve him.

If we now read a little further we will see that he does not rule alone. He has companions:

"But the holy ones (saints) of the Supreme One will receive the kingdom, and they will possess the kingdom forever, yes, forever and ever.’"-Daniel 7:18.

Here we are shown that the saints, or "holy ones" will receive the kingdom with Jesus Christ. This is just as Jesus made mention to his disciples that they would sit on thrones with him in his kingdom.

Talking directly to these chosen "holy ones" Jesus says in Revelation:

"To the one who conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, just as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne."-Revelation 3:21.

The apostle Paul wrote to the anointed Christian congregation:

"If we go on enduring, we will also rule together as kings; if we deny, he will also deny us."-2 Timothy 2:12.

So the hope of those called to heavenly life is to rule with Jesus as kings, just as he promised those whom he brings into the kingdom covenant when they are baptized with holy spirit.

That this will be in heaven there is no doubt. In a previous post I made about the 144,000 being in heavenly Mount Zion with Jesus Christ. Scripture says concerning those thusly called who have God's name on their forehead, that they will be in God's presence and will rule forever and ever:

"Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads."-Revelation 14:1.

"But the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his slaves will offer him sacred service;  and they will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads.  Also, night will be no more, and they have no need of lamplight or sunlight, for Jehovah God will shed light upon them, and they will rule as kings forever and ever."-Revelation 22:3-5.

Paul tells the holy ones that now we can only understand the spiritual things partially in a mental haze, but when we are in heaven, then we will see God as he is "face-to-face" and we will know him exactly as he is and just as he knows us:

"For now we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face-to-face. At present I know partially, but then I will know accurately, just as I am accurately known."-1 Corinthians 13:12.

These holy ones are the called and chosen to rule in heaven. Notice that in the end of the days at the very end that the king in Daniel's vision will rise up against them and will be allowed to wage war with them and conquer them:

"And in the final part of their kingdom, as the transgressors act to a completion, a fierce-looking king who understands ambiguous sayings will stand up.  His power will become great, but not through his own power. He will bring ruin in an extraordinary way, and he will be successful and act effectively. He will bring mighty ones to ruin, also the people made up of the holy ones."-Daniel 8:23, 24.

At the very end this king will stand up and wage war and bring many people to ruin, including the "holy ones" that will receive the kingdom.

....

 

[Eyes to See]

cont...

That they will be put to death is clearly seen in Revelation, when God is asked how much longer will he await to bring vengeance upon this wicked human society, he says it will not be until the rest of the holy ones alive at that time are about to be put to death as the holy ones that lived before them (the members of the 144,000 including many of the apostles that were put to death for witnessing about Jesus Christ and Jehovah God):

"When he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness they had given. They shouted with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” And a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they had been."-Revelation 6:9-11.

The number of the 144,000 will be filled at that time.

We are told that Jesus Christ will then arrive in his kingdom power in heaven and send with his archangel's voice and God's trumpet and raised those called and chosen and faithful to heaven.-1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

During that time Jesus after having arrived in his kingdom glory will separate the people on earth as sheep or goats. Thus people will be judged as either fit for surviving Armageddon and will live, or for destruction and will be put to death.

This is the court that sits down in vision in Daniel:

"He will speak words against the Most High, and he will continually harass the holy ones of the Supreme One. He will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.  But the Court sat, and they took away his rulership, in order to annihilate him and to destroy him completely."-Daniel 7:25-26.

Notice here that at the end (for this is at the very end of the last days) the king is allowed to speak against Jehovah God, the Most High, and for 3 1/2 times he will harrass the saints, the holy ones. Then what happens? They are transferred to heaven (those left alive at that time) as Jesus arrives in his kingdom power to call them to heaven, and the Court sits. And they, that is the 144,000 anointed, "holy ones" the "saints" who will now be with Jesus Christ in heaven will wage war with the earth and destroy this wicked system of things just as we are told in Revelation:

"These will battle with the Lamb, but because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them. Also, those with him who are called and chosen and faithful will do so.”-Revelation 17:14.

Here we see the kings of the earth battling against the Lamb, Jesus Christ as king of God's kingdom, but he will destroy them, and those "called and chosen and faithful" the "holy ones" the saints, the 144,000 kings who are at that time in heaven with Jesus Christ as spirit sons of God and brothers of Christ will be with him to bring about the destruction of this wicked world:

“‘And the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all rulerships will serve and obey them.’"-Daniel 7:27.

The holy ones will rule with "the son of man" Jesus Christ forever. That this is in heaven there is no room left for any doubt:

"But the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his slaves will offer him sacred service; 4 and they will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 Also, night will be no more, and they have no need of lamplight or sunlight, for Jehovah God will shed light upon them, and they will rule as kings forever and ever."-Revelation 223-5.

They will be in heaven to behold God's face, and God will shine light upon them forever, and they will rule as kings forever and ever.

So who is the son of man and the saints?

The son of man is Jesus Christ. He is given a real kingdom in heaven a government that will come to earth and bring untold blessings to obedient mankind.

The saints, the holy ones, are the 144,000, called to heavenly spirit life, brought into the covenant with Jesus Christ to sit on thrones and rule over the earth.


“As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end. Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant.”-Daniel 12:4.


“Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end.  Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand."-Daniel 12:9, 10.

 

[shunyadragon]

As a Baha'i I study all religions and churches and what they believe, and understand your belief in Daniel, but of course I do not agree with your interpretation of Daniel. Of course neither do the Jews agree with and as a matter of fact also reject the Baha'i belief.

 

[Trailblazer]

So who is the son of man and the saints?

The son of man is Jesus Christ. He is given a real kingdom in heaven a government that will come to earth and bring untold blessings to obedient mankind.

The saints, the holy ones, are the 144,000, called to heavenly spirit life, brought into the covenant with Jesus Christ to sit on thrones and rule over the earth.

“As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end. Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant.”-Daniel 12:4.

“Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end.  Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand."-Daniel 12:9, 10.

I have a different interpretation of Daniel 12, and I have several versions written up so I will pick one of them. It is based upon the KJV but it means essentially the same thing as the version you posted. so here goes...

Because of the way the Bible was written, misunderstanding and misinterpretation of the Bible has been a big problem since the very beginning. Everyone disagreed as to what the Bible meant and nobody understood much of what it meant, and that is why there are so many different sects of Christianity. However, it was prophesied by Daniel that the Book would be sealed up until the time of the end, meaning nobody would really understand it:

Daniel Chapter 12: 4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. 8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

The early Church fathers interpreted the Bible the way they did because they could not fully understand it.

The "Book" was intended to be sealed up until the time of the end, until the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days came. The 2,300 years came in 1844 and the book was unsealed by Baha’u’llah. That math is explained in Some Answered Questions, 10: TRADITIONAL PROOFS EXEMPLIFIED FROM THE BOOK OF DANIEL.

We do not have to run to and fro anymore. Unsealing the Book means we can now understand the true meaning of the Bible (knowledge shall be increased.) By reading the Baha’i Writings that explain the true meaning of the Bible, we can understand what the Bible means.

“Time of the end” never meant the end of the world, one thing Christians have misunderstood. It meant end of an Age. Muhammad was called the Seal of the Prophets because He was the last Prophet in the Adamic Cycle (Prophetic Cycle) and thus He sealed off that Cycle.

In 1844 the Bab and Baha’u’llah, the “twin” Manifestations of God, ushered in a new Cycle of religion and the Age of Fulfillment. All the “new age” movements and all the scientific discoveries we have seen since the 19th century are the result of the inception of this new Cycle, this New Age that we are now living in.

 

[nPeace]

@Eyes to See this scripture doesn't need interpreting.
"But he, being full of holy spirit, gazed into heaven and caught sight of God’s glory and of Jesus standing at God’s right hand, and he said: “Look! I see the heavens opened up and the Son of man standing at God’s right hand." - Acts 7:55-56.
It's a clear explanation.
After Jesus went away, he is identified as the son of man.
So, the question, 'who is the son of man Jesus referred to', is answered. It's none other than Jesus Christ.
Thanks for that clear and simple use of scripture.

 

[Brian2]

But when would he rule as king? The prophecy in Daniel 4 about 7 times gives us the time period when the gentile times would end, and God's kingdom in heaven would begin to rule.

When do you say the gentile times (appointed times of the nations) ended and is this because of your interpretation of the Daniel 4 prophecy or because Jerusalem stopped being trampled on by the nations?
Luke 21:24 and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.
Do you think Jesus could have been ruling as King over His people before this?

 

[Trailblazer]

@Eyes to See this scripture doesn't need interpreting.
"But he, being full of holy spirit, gazed into heaven and caught sight of God’s glory and of Jesus standing at God’s right hand, and he said: “Look! I see the heavens opened up and the Son of man standing at God’s right hand." - Acts 7:55-56.
It's a clear explanation.
After Jesus went away, he is identified as the son of man.
So, the question, 'who is the son of man Jesus referred to', is answered. It's none other than Jesus Christ.
Thanks for that clear and simple use of scripture.

I believe that Jesus is the Son of man because Jesus called Himself the Son of man and because Baha'u'llah referred to Jesus as the Son of Man in more than one verse:

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.

We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.

Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86​

“Similarly, call thou to mind the day when the Jews, who had surrounded Jesus, Son of Mary, were pressing Him to confess His claim of being the Messiah and Prophet of God, so that they might declare Him an infidel and sentence Him to death. Then, they led Him away, He Who was the Day-star of the heaven of divine Revelation, unto Pilate and Caiaphas, who was the leading divine of that age. The chief priests were all assembled in the palace, also a multitude of people who had gathered to witness His sufferings, to deride and injure Him. Though they repeatedly questioned Him, hoping that He would confess His claim, yet Jesus held His peace and spake not. Finally, an accursed of God arose and, approaching Jesus, adjured Him saying: “Didst thou not claim to be the Divine Messiah? Didst thou not say, ‘I am the King of Kings, My word is the Word of God, and I am the breaker of the Sabbath day?’” Thereupon Jesus lifted up His head and said: “Beholdest thou not the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power and might?” These were His words, and yet consider how to outward seeming He was devoid of all power except that inner power which was of God and which had encompassed all that is in heaven and on earth. How can I relate all that befell Him after He spoke these words? How shall I describe their heinous behaviour towards Him? They at last heaped on His blessed Person such woes that He took His flight unto the fourth Heaven.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 132-133​

Baha'is believe that Jesus was the Son of Man who sat on the right hand of God's power and might while He walked the earth and after he ascended to fourth heaven.

 

[nPeace]

I believe that Jesus is the Son of man because Jesus called Himself the Son of man and because Baha'u'llah referred to Jesus as the Son of Man in more than one verse:

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.

We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.

Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86​

“Similarly, call thou to mind the day when the Jews, who had surrounded Jesus, Son of Mary, were pressing Him to confess His claim of being the Messiah and Prophet of God, so that they might declare Him an infidel and sentence Him to death. Then, they led Him away, He Who was the Day-star of the heaven of divine Revelation, unto Pilate and Caiaphas, who was the leading divine of that age. The chief priests were all assembled in the palace, also a multitude of people who had gathered to witness His sufferings, to deride and injure Him. Though they repeatedly questioned Him, hoping that He would confess His claim, yet Jesus held His peace and spake not. Finally, an accursed of God arose and, approaching Jesus, adjured Him saying: “Didst thou not claim to be the Divine Messiah? Didst thou not say, ‘I am the King of Kings, My word is the Word of God, and I am the breaker of the Sabbath day?’” Thereupon Jesus lifted up His head and said: “Beholdest thou not the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power and might?” These were His words, and yet consider how to outward seeming He was devoid of all power except that inner power which was of God and which had encompassed all that is in heaven and on earth. How can I relate all that befell Him after He spoke these words? How shall I describe their heinous behaviour towards Him? They at last heaped on His blessed Person such woes that He took His flight unto the fourth Heaven.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 132-133​

Baha'is believe that Jesus was the Son of Man who sat on the right hand of God's power and might while He walked the earth and after he ascended to fourth heaven.

What about at God's right hand in heaven?

 

[Trailblazer]

What about at God's right hand in heaven?

As I said: "Baha'is believe that Jesus was the Son of Man who sat on the right hand of God's power and might while He walked the earth and after he ascended to fourth heaven."

What I meant is that Jesus is at the Right Hand of God in heaven.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Kindly tell me about Four Bahai heavens. How many hells are there, if there are four heavens?

 

[Aupmanyav]

In 1844 the Bab and Baha’u’llah, the “twin” Manifestations of God, .. all the scientific discoveries we have seen since the 19th century are the result of the inception of this new Cycle, this New Age that we are now living in.

Bab was not a manifestation of Allah. Otherwise Bahaollah could not have been one. Remember the 800-1000 year difference. But science did not begin in 19th Century. Science discoveries have been greater in 20th Century even without another manifestation of Allah appearing on earth. And now it is 21st Century. 19th Century is history. Science progresses exponentially. We will soon get rock samples from Mars and Asteroids.
NASA probe leaking asteroid samples after hearty collection (Bennu asteroid)
Japanese probe lands on asteroid to capture sample – Spaceflight Now (Ryugu asteroid)

 

[Trailblazer]

Kindly tell me about Four Bahai heavens. How many hells are there, if there are four heavens?

I only know what Baha'ul'lah said about the fourth heaven to which Jesus ascended. I don't know anything about the other heavens. I assume the fourth heaven signifies the highest heaven, which is where God resides.

Baha'u'llah made it clear that hell signifies distance from God. Hell is a state of the the soul, not a geographical location.

Heaven is also a state of the soul, a soul that is near to God, not a geographical location.

 

[Trailblazer]

Bab was not a manifestation of Allah. Otherwise Bahaollah could not have been one. Remember the 800-1000 year difference. But science did not begin in 19th Century. Science discoveries have been greater in 20th Century even without another manifestation of Allah appearing on earth. Science progresses exponentially. We will soon get rock samples from Mars and Asteroids.
NASA probe leaking asteroid samples after hearty collection (Bennu asteroid)
Japanese probe lands on asteroid to capture sample – Spaceflight Now (Ryugu asteroid)

The Bab ushered in the new age in 1844 and that is when the scientific discoveries took off. That process has continued into the 20th century and will continue to progress exponentially.

What hath God Wrought? 24 May 1844

We live in the most remarkable of times. The transformation of the material conditions of humanity has a cause. Do we really believe that the human beings who came before us were incapable of what we see in the world today? Great civilizations have come before in history – yet none of them broke out of the same reality that has existed since the dawn of agriculture.

It is only in this time that humanity has passed into an entirely new reality. It has a cause. A cause larger than humanity itself.

In 1844, in Shiraz, the Bab, Baha’u’llah’s immediate forerunner, spoke these words:

The secret of the Day that is to come is now concealed. It can neither be divulged nor estimated. The newly born babe of that Day excels the wisest and most venerable men of this time, and the lowliest and most unlearned of that period shall surpass in understanding the most erudite and accomplished divines of this age.[1]

A short time before, on the other side of the planet on 24 May 1844, within a day of the Bab’s declaration of his mission, Samuel Morse, the inventor of the telegraph sent its first message from Washington to Baltimore.
The message read as follows: What hath God Wrought? , citing a passage from the Bible.

23 May 1844 --The Declaration of the Bab (English)

 

[Brian2]

The holy ones will rule with "the son of man" Jesus Christ forever. That this is in heaven there is no room left for any doubt:

"But the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his slaves will offer him sacred service; 4 and they will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 Also, night will be no more, and they have no need of lamplight or sunlight, for Jehovah God will shed light upon them, and they will rule as kings forever and ever."-Revelation 223-5.

They will be in heaven to behold God's face, and God will shine light upon them forever, and they will rule as kings forever and ever.

The city spoken of at Rev 22:3-5 above is said to come down from heaven in Rev 21, so why do you say that it is in heaven that the 144,000, Jesus and God are going to stay and rule from forever?

 

[Brian2]

"When he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness they had given. They shouted with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” And a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they had been."-Revelation 6:9-11.

The number of the 144,000 will be filled at that time.

In the past the Watch Tower has said that the 144,000 was complete but these days it seems to be increasing since we see more people participating in the Lords Supper at Kingdom Halls.(something only those in the 144,000 are supposed to do) How is this happening if the 144,000 is full already? Does that mean that the Watch Tower has been wrong about the 144,000 being complete?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Kindly tell me about Four Bahai heavens. How many hells are there, if there are four heavens?

When Baha'u'llah wrote that tablet it was to people that knew of teachings from Islam about the 7 Heavens

Quran 41:12
So [Allah] decreed them as seven heavens (one above the other) in two days and revealed to each heaven its orders. And We [Allah] adorned the lowest heaven with lights, and protection. Such is the decree of the Exalted; the Knowledgeable.

Quran 65:12
Allah is the one who created seven Heavens and from Earth like them (of corresponding type); [Allah's] command descends among them so that you may know that Allah is capable of anything and that Allah knows everything.

There are 9 Verse in the Quran about the Seven Heavens, the numbers are interesting.

The section quoted in the Kitab-i-Iqan has this explanation;

".... It may well be that we shall find some statement is couched in terms familiar to the audience to which it was first addressed, but is strange now to us. For example, in answer to a question about Bahá'u'lláh's reference to the "Fourth Heaven" in the Kitab-i-Iqan, the Guardian's secretary wrote on his behalf: "Regarding the ascension of His Holiness Christ to the fourth heaven revealed in the Book of Certitude, Shoghi Effendi says that the phrase 'fourth heaven' is used to conform with the ancient astronomers' terms and theories which were upheld by the followers of the Shi'ih sect, and since the Book of Certitude was originally revealed for the guidance of that sect, the above phrase, therefore, was used in conformity with their theories."
(Translated from the Arabic)
In studying such statements, however, we must have the humility to appreciate the limitations of our own knowledge and outlook, and strive always to understand the purpose of Bahá'u'lláh in making them, trying to look upon Him with His own eyes, as it were...... "

In other words, we would need to study a lot to find out what Baha'u'llah was quoting and talking about.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Kindly tell me about Four Bahai heavens. How many hells are there, if there are four heavens?

Interestingly there is a concept of 7 heaven in Hinduism.

Seven Heavens - Wikipedia

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

I only know what Baha'ul'lah said about the fourth heaven to which Jesus ascended. I don't know anything about the other heavens. I assume the fourth heaven signifies the highest heaven, which is where God resides.
Baha'u'llah made it clear that hell signifies distance from God. Hell is a state of the the soul, not a geographical location.

Bahaollah should have explained it all. Now we have to wait for another 800 years before the next 'manifestation' of Allah arrives. Why can't the messengers of Bahai Allah give complete and full message? They always leave puzzles. If there is no boiling in hell or no eternal torture, then what is the need to be afraid of it? How does it matter if we are close to Bahai Allah or at a distance? No one of the followers of Bahaollah asked this, nor his son and great-grandson explained it. A very slipshod way of giving and sending messages. We can do better with e-mail.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The Bab ushered in the new age in 1844 and that is when the scientific discoveries took off. That process has continued into the 20th century and will continue to progress exponentially.

Took off to where? Timbuktoo? In What? Some Vimana? You mean people were not pursuing science before 1844. Kindly read this rather than declaration of Bab. 19th century in science - Wikipedia
So Bab ushered in Science in 1844. What was Bab's or Bahaollah's contribution to it?
What silly things you write Trailblazer. You always manage to startle / surprise me.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Interestingly there is a concept of 7 heaven in Hinduism.

Yeah, mythology, and 28 hells in some books. The Agni Purana mentions only 4 hells. The Manu Smriti mentions 21 hells. The Bhagavata Purana, the Vishnu Purana and the Devi Bhagavata Purana enlist and describe 28 hells; however, they end the description by stating that there are hundreds and thousands of hells. Naraka (Hinduism) - Wikipedia

But people should have courage to say that all this is false. And that there is no proof for it. Advaita Hinduism has given me this courage to flatly deny falsehood.