The Staggering Cost of Israel to Americans

[Jayhawker Soule]

Personally, I have yet to be convinced that the very existence of Israel is a good thing in and of itself.

As opposed to, for example, Brazil …

Most Latin American nations were relatively open to immigrants from 1918 to 1933. After the Nazi seizure of power in Germany, however, as the search for refuge intensified, both popular and official resistance to the acceptance of European Jews and other foreigners increased. Latin American governments officially permitted only about 84,000 Jewish refugees to immigrate between 1933 and 1945, less than half the number admitted during the previous fifteen years. Others entered these countries through illegal channels. …

… Brazil admitted 96,000 Jewish immigrants between 1918 and 1933, but only 12,000 between 1933 and 1941. [source]

That said, whether or not you're convinced that Jews have the right to see determination strikes me as not particularly relevant.

 

[metis]

Personally, I have yet to be convinced that the very existence of Israel is a good thing in and of itself. It sure does not seem to be doing a lot of good to the Jewish people, despite many of them insisting that it is so. And if it is helping in keeping the Middle East safer, then it sure is doing it in a very roundabout, confusing, and bloody way.

Sorry, but what else can one think when a territory just keeps going on and on about how it needs more and more weapons and military privileges just to exist?

I realize that the situation there is volatile and quite complex. But that is no reason to avoid facing the realities of military races head-on: they solve nothing and create a lot of problems of their own.

If keeping Israel existing and arguably safe is a priority to anyone, then military support is completely the wrong way of doing that. One might try conditioning some of that economic support to diplomatic efforts. Ideally, promoting some sort of exchange program to force feedback between Israeli and Palestinian communities.

Let's say that Brazil is a small country surrounded by several countries that want to destroy it and you, so what do you suggest would be your position then? How about just about everyone and you leaving your country and going somewhere else? Or how about not building your military up so other countries can slaughter you, your family, and your entire country, which has been threatened against Israel? Or how about refusing military aid that puts your country at risk? And actually this aid does get paid back in various ways.

I betcha you'd change your tune in a second if you were in the same boat as the people of Israel-- unless you have some sort of death wish for you, your family, and your entire people.

 

[CMike]

Personally, I have yet to be convinced that the very existence of Israel is a good thing in and of itself. It sure does not seem to be doing a lot of good to the Jewish people, despite many of them insisting that it is so. And if it is helping in keeping the Middle East safer, then it sure is doing it in a very roundabout, confusing, and bloody way.

Sorry, but what else can one think when a territory just keeps going on and on about how it needs more and more weapons and military privileges just to exist?

I realize that the situation there is volatile and quite complex. But that is no reason to avoid facing the realities of military races head-on: they solve nothing and create a lot of problems of their own.

If keeping Israel existing and arguably safe is a priority to anyone, then military support is completely the wrong way of doing that. One might try conditioning some of that economic support to diplomatic efforts. Ideally, promoting some sort of exchange program to force feedback between Israeli and Palestinian communities.

I am sorry that Israel's existence bothers you so

What purpose does Brazil serve? Is there a reason for it's existence?

What has it contributed to the world?

It certainly shouldn't have a military.

Your post is utterly absurd.

Israel is surrounding by arab dictators that want to destroy Israel because it exists.

They have no choice but to use it's military for it's survival.

A good chunk of the arab countries are in still a technical state of war with Israel. These countries are not democracies, they are dictatorships, that need Israel as a scapegoat to keep their inhabitants focused on hatred on jews rather than the mismanagement of their own governments.

Israel is the only democracy in the middle east. It's the historic homeland of the jews, and was a magnet to the jews, because most of the european and asian countries were very hostile toward the jews and didn't want them.

Israel is where a jew can truely be a jew.

 

[Revoltingest]

I so often see remarks about foreign aid that miss the point that we get something back from that aid, plus a great deal of the money ends up coming back here with the purchase of American products. American ships frequently dock in Israel for both refueling and R & R, plus we have weapons systems that are shared along with intelligence gathering.

We don't get enuf back from this though. Tis a common economic fallacy
that the mere churning of money is productive economic activity.

Consider a hypothetical foreign aid transaction:
1) Givistan's citizens earn money.
2) Givistan takes a portion of it in taxes
3) Givistan gives $100 of it to Gettistan.
4) Gettistan orders a widget for $100 from Acme Widgets in Givistan.
5) Acme Widgets gets $100, & Gettistan gets a widget.
So...what is the net effect of the above transfers?
- The taxpayers lose $100.
- Acme gets $100.
- Givistan exports a widget.
Givistan is not out any money (other than a loss due to inflation during the money's absence),
but it spent labor & material. Labor & material are given up, with no compensation. This is
a net loss for Givistan's taxpayers, but it explains why Acme hires lobbyists to push foreign aid.

Consider another perspective:
If Givistan wins by giving away money, then this would mean that there's no loss by giving
away double, triple, or ntuple the amount. Is there a limit to taxation level & foreign aid
at which the picture is less than rosy?

 

[Sha'irullah]

I just love how Muslims try to make it justifiable for America to completely abandon Israel in hopes of tearing it apart lol. It is just subtle hatred at it's finest.

It cannot be justified religiously or ethically so now it is economics.

 

[Revoltingest]

I just love how Muslims try to make it justifiable for America to completely abandon Israel in hopes of tearing it apart lol. It is just subtle hatred at it's finest.
It cannot be justified religiously or ethically so now it is economics.

You should note that not just Muslims balk at the cost of supporting Israel.
Economics is not some convenient excuse, but rather a very compelling issue.
Moreover, there is carnage at home & abroad from the wars & terrorism we
see resulting from this relationship.

Edit:
Ya know...if some of Israel's vigorous defenders would address the issues instead
of attacking critic's shortcomings (real or imagined), then it would be more interesting.

 

[Sha'irullah]

You should note that not just Muslims balk at the cost of supporting Israel.
Economics is not some convenient excuse, but rather a very compelling issue.
Moreover, there is carnage at home & abroad from the wars & terrorism we
see resulting from this relationship.

I am aware of many people disliking supporting Israel for economic reasons and I have have heard Republicans express constant support of it despite the downsides.

But it is clear that Muslims will find any reason for America to abandon Israel solely for personal gains. Do you not find it ironic that a Muslim would be so precise in trying to provide as much information to persuade others to abandon Israel?

it is just underhanded tactics

 

[Revoltingest]

I am aware of many people disliking supporting Israel for economic reasons and I have have heard Republicans express constant support of it despite the downsides.

Meh...I'm not a Republican (or Democrat), & I already see the same thing.

But it is clear that Muslims will find any reason for America to abandon Israel solely for personal gains. Do you not find it ironic that a Muslim would be so precise in trying to provide as much information to persuade others to abandon Israel?
it is just underhanded tactics

Au contraire! It strikes me as a reasoned position.
Btw, not all Muslims are hate filled or want to destroy Israel.

Edit:
Back to the same quote.....

....Muslims will find any reason for America to abandon Israel solely for personal gains. Do you not find it ironic that a Muslim would be so precise in trying to provide as much information to persuade others to abandon Israel?
it is just underhanded tactics

Look what happens when I make some substitutions....
....Jews will find any reason for America to support Israel solely for personal gains. Do you not find it ironic that a Jew would be so precise in trying to provide as much information to persuade others to support Israel?
it is just underhanded tactics
It strikes me that this language would be unacceptable here.
I'm no fan of Islam, but let's treat Muslims fairly.

 

[Repox]

What would the world be like if Jews couldn't defend themselves from extermination?

Jews would have to be fools to not have an aggressive military policy. More than 6 million of them were exterminated by Hitler. If they had been more militant back then it might not have happened. It seems certain that Arabs would like to repeat Hitler's holocaust. During WWII Arabs (Muslims) supported Hitler and the Nazis rant against Jews. I applaud the Jewish people for defending themselves against Anti-Semitism. Everyone should read about Jewish persecution, it is like a horror story. I don't blame Jews for having military power to defend themselves against persecution and terrorist attacks.

 

[CMike]

What would the world be like if Jews couldn't defend themselves from extermination?

Jews would have to be fools to not have an aggressive military policy. More than 6 million of them were exterminated by Hitler. If they had been more militant back then it might not have happened. It seems certain that Arabs would like to repeat Hitler's holocaust. During WWII Arabs (Muslims) supported Hitler and the Nazis rant against Jews. I applaud the Jewish people for defending themselves against Anti-Semitism. Everyone should read about Jewish persecution, it is like a horror story. I don't blame Jews for having military power to defend themselves against persecution and terrorist attacks.

:clap:clap:clap

 

[CMike]

You should note that not just Muslims balk at the cost of supporting Israel.
Economics is not some convenient excuse, but rather a very compelling issue.
Moreover, there is carnage at home & abroad from the wars & terrorism we
see resulting from this relationship.

Edit:
Ya know...if some of Israel's vigorous defenders would address the issues instead
of attacking critic's shortcomings (real or imagined), then it would be more interesting.

What I find really telling is for the longest time Egypt has gotten about the same amount of aid that Israel has. Egypt however hardly ever sides with the US in the UN and is far from a good ally.

Yet, you never hear these people so concerned about american aid to Israel say anything about aid to Egypt.

Why is that?

I think that aid should be tied into how a country votes with the US in the UN.

 

[Revoltingest]

What I find really telling is for the longest time Egypt has gotten about the same amount of aid that Israel has. Egypt however hardly ever sides with the US in the UN and is far from a good ally.
Yet, you never hear these people so concerned about american aid to Israel say anything about aid to Egypt.
Why is that?
I think that aid should be tied into how a country votes with the US in the UN.

I don't know specifically whom you mean by "these people", but I want to stop aid to Egypt too.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Who is in control of the Egyptian army?

 

[Sha'irullah]

Meh...I'm not a Republican (or Democrat), & I already see the same thing.

Good because nor am I! CPUSA all the way!

Au contraire! It strikes me as a reasoned position.
Btw, not all Muslims are hate filled or want to destroy Israel.

Says the guy who was never a Muslim(I think).
Not sure if ya Scotsmen fancy Arabian religion

Look what happens when I make some substitutions....
....Jews will find any reason for America to support Israel solely for personal gains. Do you not find it ironic that a Jew would be so precise in trying to provide as much information to persuade others to support Israel?
it is just underhanded tactics

The issue is that Jew as a whole are not motivated on conquering the world for religious reasons nor do they strap bombs to their chests trying to please their god.

Jews can do the exact same thing Muslims do and often times they do. I am only interested int he outcome, motivation and effects.

It strikes me that this language would be unacceptable here.
I'm no fan of Islam, but let's treat Muslims fairly.

Well I am not fan of Islam either but I myself do treat Muslims fairly, the issue though is that Muslims often times subjectively follow the evils of propaganda and have not the slightest bit of knowledge about it.

For example, when I left Christianity it took me a while to get the bad taste the word "evolution" places in my mouth. It is subjective hatred that is taught.
I have seen Muslims spout stuff with no backing and display subtle hatred towards others like Christians and atheists do towards each other. Most of the time we are unaware of such things.

 

[Sha'irullah]

What would the world be like if Jews couldn't defend themselves from extermination?

Jews would have to be fools to not have an aggressive military policy. More than 6 million of them were exterminated by Hitler. If they had been more militant back then it might not have happened. It seems certain that Arabs would like to repeat Hitler's holocaust. During WWII Arabs (Muslims) supported Hitler and the Nazis rant against Jews. I applaud the Jewish people for defending themselves against Anti-Semitism. Everyone should read about Jewish persecution, it is like a horror story. I don't blame Jews for having military power to defend themselves against persecution and terrorist attacks.

al-hamdu'lillah

 

[Caladan]

Americastan's foreign adventurism has indeed been incompetent, irresponsible & destructive for a very long time. (The bad news is that this will likely continue.) But this does not defeat the fact that Israel is our primary interest in the Mid East.

Hardly, and I find this reasoning to be obsessive, I would usually call it ignorance. But at this point it's obvious to me that it is obsessive to the point of discarding any shred of relevant geopolitical information as you have done so far.

So much of our meddling there is because of our support for Israel, & responses to the reactions of other countries for this support.

Your primary reasons for meddling in the Middle East are hegemonic and industrial reasons. Reasons which your country pursued through other nations in the region before it realized that a young Israeli state is ideal to incorporate into its strategic vision in the region. So the truth is that it was your nation which set us apart to be instrumental in its regional meddling.

We have a large segment of population (generally Judeo-Xian) which wants Israel there, wants them to stay, sees Islam as a foe, & votes in politicians who pursue this worldview.

Wants Israel to stay there? pray tell, where should Israelis relocate to?

Now, now....you (staff) should know our rules against such remarks. There's no need to
be defensive & angry over mere disagreement about the issues. Let's stick to them, eh?

There really isn't any need to get defensive and sensitive, It's not as if I *literally* called anyone stupid.

This might be one area where Americastan's usual incompetence does not explain failure to
grab Mid-East oil resources. We simply weren't there to get oil, & took no steps to secure any.
Moreover....
Where Does America Get Oil? You May Be Surprised : NPR

Moreover...

"Of course it's about oil; we can't really deny that," said Gen. John Abizaid, former head of U.S. Central Command and Military Operations in Iraq, in 2007. Former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan agreed, writing in his memoir, "I am saddened that it is politically inconvenient to acknowledge what everyone knows: the Iraq war is largely about oil." Then-Sen. and now Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel said the same in 2007: "People say we're not fighting for oil. Of course we are."

For the first time in about 30 years, Western oil companies are exploring for and producing oil in Iraq from some of the world's largest oil fields and reaping enormous profit. And while the U.S. has also maintained a fairly consistent level of Iraq oil imports since the invasion, the benefits are not finding their way through Iraq's economy or society.

Source: Why the war in Iraq was fought for Big Oil - CNN.com

People say we’re not fighting for oil. Of course we are. They talk about America’s national interest. What the hell do you think they’re talking about? We’re not there for figs.

(Chuck Hagel)

Source: Top REPUBLICAN Leaders Say Iraq War Was Really about Oil Washington's Blog

I don't blame you for our problems, but that isn't really the issue. Note that the OP is simply about the cost of Israel to Americastan. If it helps, think of this entanglement as a cost we create for ourselves, rather than a cost Israel imposes upon us. I don't fault you for the voting habits & lobbying which steers our government in this direction, so you needn't take offense.

Discussing such a topic would never survive a peer reviewed environment of international political analysts. In order to honestly and thoroughly discuss such an issue, we need to also address the cost of America to Israelis, and of course the cost of Egypt, Saudi, Gulf states to America and the cost of America to them. And of course what would be the cost for America if nations such as Israel turned to other 'patronage' in the form of another major power. In short, what are the pros and cons of this platform. Selectively (and stereotypically) discussing why Israel cost so much to America, without viewing what is the cost to Israel, or without viewing the other regional, and international factors hardly makes for a serious political discussion. However, it makes for warm and fuzzy session of Israel bashing.

You needn't give me the raised eyebrow over our many sins....I've long argued that this is a major foreign policy problem for us. (I've also voted for more isolationist leaders.) But the reason for our malicious Mid-East meddling & misadventures is the enduring agenda of supporting Israel. I know, I know....stop laughing....astounding as it sounds that you suffer the fallout from our recklessness, this agenda drives the fiasco.

Again, it isn't. Israel is your vessel for achieving your goals while meddling in the region. And not the only vessel. You don't need Israel in order to invade Iraq (on 2 occasions) or to occupy Iraq and Afghanistan for a decade. In fact, there are many grand things America has done and is doing without any relevance to its alliance with Israel.

One who wants sensitivity & respect ought not be so quick to generally respond to disagreements about issues with ad hom arguments & insults. The "glitch" I referred to is that the violence you experienced was an unintended consequence of our policies & actions.

Oh, I see. Well if I should humbly embrace the fact that having ballistic missiles parts landing around my school yard before even finishing elementary school is simply a part of the sacrifice my family had to make in order to support American policies... then buddy, chalk it up. What's good for me is good for your. If you want a stress free strategic alliance I deserve one as well.

It seems we both agree that the aid (in all forms) should stop.
You don't appreciate it our measly billions each year, & I prefer to keep them here.

To be honest based on my exchange here, I don't consider you to be the address to find informative points about American-Israeli aid and defense agreements. I much rather follow what defense analysts on both sides think about the subject, its benefits, its long term goals, and its future.

 

[Shia Islam]

. During WWII Arabs (Muslims) supported Hitler and the Nazis rant against Jews.

Do respect the historical facts.

Arabs were colonized nations during the WWII...

Suppose that Hitler was not a Jew, how would the narration of the WWII have been written?

Suppose that Hitler was a Muslim, would not the whole title of the WWII has been changed?

More than 6 million of them were exterminated by Hitler.

Were did you get this figure from?

Also, How many lives of 'Arabs' did the 'creation' of Israel cost?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Do respect the historical facts.

Talk about irony …

Suppose that Hitler was not a Jew, how would the narration of the WWII have been written?

Do you respect historical facts?

Hitler's father, Alois Hitler (1837–1903), was the illegitimate child of Maria Anna Schicklgruber. Because the baptismal register did not show the name of his father, Alois initially bore his mother's surname, Schicklgruber. In 1842, Johann Georg Hiedler married Alois's mother, Maria Anna. After she died in 1847 and Johann Georg Hiedler in 1856, Alois was brought up in the family of Hiedler's brother, Johann Nepomuk Hiedler. In 1876, Alois was legitimated and the baptismal register changed by a priest to register Johann Georg Hiedler as Alois's father (recorded as Georg Hitler). Alois then assumed the surname Hitler,[4] also spelled as Hiedler, Hüttler, or Huettler. The Hitler surname is probably based on "one who lives in a hut" (Standard German Hütte for hut) or on "shepherd" (Standard German hüten for to guard); alternatively, it may be derived from the Slavic words Hidlar or Hidlarcek.

Nazi official Hans Frank suggested that Alois's mother had been employed as a housekeeper for a Jewish family in Graz and that the family's 19-year-old son, Leopold Frankenberger, had fathered Alois. Because no Frankenberger was registered in Graz during that period, and no record of Leopold Frankenberger's existence has been produced, historians dismiss the claim that Alois's father was Jewish. [Wiki: Hitler, Ancestry]

One of the most frequently asked questions about the Holocaust and the Nazi party is whether Adolf Hitler was Jewish or had Jewish ancestors.

Though the idea may seem preposterous to some, the question seems to stem from the remote possibility that Hitler's grandfather was Jewish. Hitler's father, Alois, was registered as an illegitimate child with no father when born in 1837 and to this day Hitler's paternal grandfather is unknown. Alois' mother, Maria Schicklgruber, is known to have worked in the home of a wealthy Jew, so there is some chance, however small, that a son in that household got Hitler's grandmother pregnant.

In 1933, the London Daily Mirror published a picture of a gravestone in a Jewish cemetery in Bucharest inscribed with some Hebrew characters and the name Adolf Hitler but it is now known tha this Bucharest Hitler could not have been the Nazi leaders grandfather. At the time, though, this picture sufficiently worried Hitler that he had the Nazi law defining Jewishness written to exclude Jesus Christ and himself.

In 2010, the British paper The Daily Telegraph reported that a study had been conducted in which saliva samples were collected from 39 of Hitler's known relatives to test their DNA origins and found, though inconclusively, that Hitler may have Jewish origins. The paper reported: "A chromosome called Haplogroup E1b1b1 which showed up in [the Hitler] samples is rare in Western Europe and is most commonly found in the Berbers of Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia, as well as among Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews ... Haplogroup E1b1b1, which accounts for approximately 18 to 20 per cent of Ashkenazi and 8.6 per cent to 30 per cent of Sephardic Y-chromosomes, appears to be one of the major founding lineages of the Jewish population." Again, this study, though scientific by nature, is inconclusive.

Similar "allegations" of Jewish ancestry have been levied against Iranian leader Mahmoud Ahmadinejad who regularly claims that the Holocaust never happened.

Despite the claims, Adolf Hitler was not Jewish [source]

Suppose that Hitler was a Muslim, would not the whole title of the WWII has been changed?

Just suppose …

The Berbers (Imazighen) are an ethnic group that had, until recently, few links to the Arabs. They have existed in ancient Mauretania, Numidia, Ifriqiya and Tripolitania, (present-day Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and Libya respectively) for thousands of years. Most Berbers have converted to Islam over the course of several centuries. [source]

Were did you get this figure from?

Pathetic and ugly holocaust denial.

 

[Revoltingest]

Hardly, and I find this reasoning to be obsessive, I would usually call it ignorance. But at this point it's obvious to me that it is obsessive to the point of discarding any shred of relevant geopolitical information as you have done so far.

OK, I'll play too. Let's make it about the poster...your maladies:
I diagnose nationalist chauvinism & insecurity which causes blind rage at people who threaten Israel by advocating cessation of US support.

Your primary reasons for meddling in the Middle East are hegemonic and industrial reasons. Reasons which your country pursued through other nations in the region before it realized that a young Israeli state is ideal to incorporate into its strategic vision in the region. So the truth is that it was your nation which set us apart to be instrumental in its regional meddling.

Hegemony requires a motive, & I don't see us acquiring resources or permanent influence (which wanes as soon as the money faucet is turned off). But support of Israel explains our enduring presence & costly myopic misadventures. Looking at the cost of our meddling (many trillions over the last few decades), the economic benefit just isn't there, nor does the future portend any return on investment.

Wants Israel to stay there? pray tell, where should Israelis relocate to?

This is symptomatic of my earlier diagnosis. I don't propose that Israel relocate, but you attribute this belief because you see me only as a quintessential enemy. This bespeaks an inability to treat those you greatly disagree with as individuals. (This is far from the first time.)

There really isn't any need to get defensive and sensitive, It's not as if I *literally* called anyone stupid.

"Literally" strikes me as a weasel word.

"Of course it's about oil; we can't really deny that," said Gen. John Abizaid, former head of U.S. Central Command and Military Operations in Iraq, in 2007. Former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan agreed, writing in his memoir, "I am saddened that it is politically inconvenient to acknowledge what everyone knows: the Iraq war is largely about oil." Then-Sen. and now Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel said the same in 2007: "People say we're not fighting for oil. Of course we are."

A consistent oil supply is certainly a desirable thing, & Mid-East stability serves that purpose. But I dispute that we're any better off than if we'd avoided the last half century of disastrous foreign adventurism. Government aparatchiks will have their stated opinions, but they are not gospel truth (as we so very regularly see here). One must use one's own judgement regarding interpretation (opinions) of agreed upon facts.
Is any politician here going to admit that our enormous investment & losses are primarily for support of Israel? Of course not. We hear useful platitudes like Bush's regarding 9/11, "They hate our freedoms...". The oil claims serve many political needs, eg, developing domestic fossil fuels, energy regulation, avoiding the Israel issue.

For the first time in about 30 years, Western oil companies are exploring for and producing oil in Iraq from some of the world's largest oil fields and reaping enormous profit. And while the U.S. has also maintained a fairly consistent level of Iraq oil imports since the invasion, the benefits are not finding their way through Iraq's economy or society.
Source: Why the war in Iraq was fought for Big Oil - CNN.com
People say we’re not fighting for oil. Of course we are. They talk about America’s national interest. What the hell do you think they’re talking about? We’re not there for figs.
(Chuck Hagel)
Source: Top REPUBLICAN Leaders Say Iraq War Was Really about Oil Washington's Blog

Again, these pols express their opinions, some perhaps genuine, & many serving their party's agenda. These opinions at odds with the facts I see, & other opinions I hear. When I talk to Jews & Xians here, there is an overwhelming desire to see Americastan continue our long term measures to support Israel, including extreme measures like attacking dangerous neighbors of theirs. These people advocate & vote, so politicians cater to them.

Discussing such a topic would never survive a peer reviewed environment of international political analysts. In order to honestly and thoroughly discuss such an issue, we need to also address the cost of America to Israelis, and of course the cost of Egypt, Saudi, Gulf states to America and the cost of America to them. And of course what would be the cost for America if nations such as Israel turned to other 'patronage' in the form of another major power. In short, what are the pros and cons of this platform. Selectively (and stereotypically) discussing why Israel cost so much to America, without viewing what is the cost to Israel, or without viewing the other regional, and international factors hardly makes for a serious political discussion. However, it makes for warm and fuzzy session of Israel bashing.

None of the posts here rise to the level of "... peer reviewed environment of international political analysts." We're both just a couple of bozos opining on an internet forum.
To dismiss the economic argument as mere "Israel bashing" again points to my earlier diagnosis.

Again, it isn't. Israel is your vessel for achieving your goals while meddling in the region.

I wholeheartedly agree.

You don't need Israel in order to invade Iraq (on 2 occasions) or to occupy Iraq and Afghanistan for a decade. In fact, there are many grand things America has done and is doing without any relevance to its alliance with Israel.

I don't argue that we need Israel for anything. I state that our foreign misadventures in the Mid-East are largely because of our support for Israel. Note that I lay blame directly at our own feet, not upon Israel.

Oh, I see. Well if I should humbly embrace the fact that having ballistic missiles parts landing around my school yard before even finishing elementary school is simply a part of the sacrifice my family had to make in order to support American policies... then buddy, chuck it up.

This is the opposite of what I'm saying.
I'd prefer that you oppose our policies.
"Chuck it up"? Is this some kind of machine tool taunt?

To be honest based on my exchange here, I don't consider you to be the address to find informative points about American-Israeli aid and defense agreements.

You've for years not been bashful about this view.

 

[metis]

Do respect the historical facts.

Arabs were colonized nations during the WWII...

Suppose that Hitler was not a Jew, how would the narration of the WWII have been written?

So, you believe Hitler was a Jew, or is this a typo?

Suppose that Hitler was a Muslim, would not the whole title of the WWII has been changed?

Why would it change, iyo, and in which way? A world war is a world war.

Were did you get this figure from?

It's been quite well established even through non-Jewish sources. So, let me ask you this: how many Jews do you believe were killed, and exactly what is your source?

Also, How many lives of 'Arabs' did the 'creation' of Israel cost?

Actually very little as compared to the lives that Arabs have accumulated in fighting each other. However, any lives lost is a tragedy imo.

BTW, since this is obviously a grave concern of yours, are you going to denounce most of the Arabs states and also the Palestinians that have attacked Israeli targets, most of which have been civilians? C'mon, let's see if you're really willing to do this.

BTW, I would assume that you're totally against the creation of the states of Pakistan and Bangladesh since they were carved out of a greater India whereas millions had to relocate, and there was a large loss of life as they fought along the way. So, are you going to denounce the creation of Pakistan and Bangladesh as well?

OK, I do believe we've strayed from the OP.