The Staggering Cost of Israel to Americans

[LuisDantas]

As opposed to, for example, Brazil …

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That said, whether or not you're convinced that Jews have the right to see determination strikes me as not particularly relevant.

I am not sure why you compare the two situations, since they are so different.

Brazil was created under completely different circunstances, with a very distinct (and far more diffuse if less explosive) mandate, and its existence is hardly anywhere close to the powderkeg that Israel's seems to be.

Nor is it tied to religious, military or political controversies comparable to Israel's either.

All the same, it turns out that I do favor its disagreggation into smaller, more politically manageable States. To the extent that I care about States at all, mind you, which means not a whole lot. They are just too fictional and meaningless a construct to deserve much attention.

 

[LuisDantas]

Let's say that Brazil is a small country surrounded by several countries that want to destroy it and you, so what do you suggest would be your position then?

Let's say that I had a wide, actually prideworthy net of people that see themselves as "my people" (something that is actually absent to me even here in Brazil, mind you) along with your other premises.

I would leave then.

How about just about everyone and you leaving your country and going somewhere else?

What of it? I don't particularly acknowledge "my country" as a meaningful concept either in the abstract or in the concret senses to begin with.

Give me a good enough reason and I will leave.

Then again, Brazilians are like that. Many do in fact leave the territory, often with no intent of ever returning.

Or how about not building your military up so other countries can slaughter you, your family, and your entire country, which has been threatened against Israel?

Sorry, but you lost me here. "Building my military up" is just not something that I support. It is a problem disguised as something worthwhile.

Or how about refusing military aid that puts your country at risk? And actually this aid does get paid back in various ways.

That is just too out there for me to have an opinion about. Are you sure that can even happen?

I betcha you'd change your tune in a second if you were in the same boat as the people of Israel-- unless you have some sort of death wish for you, your family, and your entire people.

I do wish Brazilians to breed a lot less and become a lot more consequential, if that is what you are asking.

Anyway, I must assume that I would feel worried if I lived in Israel. It stands to be seen whether I would consider it a good idea to aim to remain there, though.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I am not sure why you compare the two situations, since they are so different.

Brazil was created under completely different circunstances, ...

And modern day Israel was created under circumstances wherein countries like Brazil shut their borders to Jews, effectively consigning many to the camps. Yet you …

... have yet to be convinced that the very existence of Israel is a good thing in and of itself. It sure does not seem to be doing a lot of good to the Jewish people, despite many of them insisting that it is so.

In the historic sense, self determination is a right irrespective of your evaluation, and it is an imperative in part because of your failure.

 

[Revoltingest]

So, you believe Hitler was a Jew, or is this a typo?

There is this...
Was Hitler Jewish? | Jewish Virtual Library
To call Hitler a Jew still seems erroneous.

 

[LuisDantas]

I am sorry that Israel's existence bothers you so

It does not, I have no idea why you assumed otherwise.

Its political environment and its consequences, however, I find very troublesome indeed.

What purpose does Brazil serve? Is there a reason for it's existence?

Not really. I actively campaign for its fracturing, in fact.

What has it contributed to the world?

Little that would not happen without it, arguably better. Why do you ask?

It certainly shouldn't have a military.

Of course. No country should aim to keep a military. It is a matter of basic decency.

Your post is utterly absurd.

If you say so.

Israel is surrounding by arab dictators that want to destroy Israel because it exists.

So it seems. One has to consider that, and it does not automatically follow that such a goal as to keep it existing is worth the trouble.

They have no choice but to use it's military for it's survival.

Even if that point were a given (it is not far as I can tell), there is still a lot to question about the way it has been done. I have not forgotten about that fleet, for instance.

A good chunk of the arab countries are in still a technical state of war with Israel. These countries are not democracies, they are dictatorships, that need Israel as a scapegoat to keep their inhabitants focused on hatred on jews rather than the mismanagement of their own governments.

I largely agree. Do you think it follows that keeping that scapegoat in existence is a worthy goal?

I don't think that is what you meant, but it does seem to be the logical conclusion.

Israel is the only democracy in the middle east.

If democracy involves a permanent situation of warfare and military mobilization, then it must be wildly over-rated.

It's the historic homeland of the jews,

Even today that is questionable at the very best.

It does not seem to be even a particularly good place for the Jewish people to live, despite having been created with just such a goal.

How historical a homeland can it be, when even your own tradition makes a point of emphasizing that you have largely been absent from it?

It sure seems to me that you take this concept of historical homeland far more seriously than anyone should.

and was a magnet to the jews, because most of the european and asian countries were very hostile toward the jews and didn't want them.

There is no denying that. It does not follow that aiming to be an autonomous yet permanently troubled people is a solution, much less a worthy goal.

Also, one has to wonder if the conditions that made that hostility so real and serious centuries ago still exist, and whether they are helped or hindered by the concept and the reality of a Jewish State.

You obviously consider such a State important to the safety and perhaps the dignity of the Jewish People. Fair enough. I have no duty and little evidence to agree with such a statement, though.

Israel is where a jew can truely be a jew.

Is that so? That is odd at the very least. I usually consider the people to make the places worth living on instead of the other way around.

There is certainly little evidence that the Jewish People who live in the Americas are particularly troubled by that circunstance, at the very least. Quite a few are in stable if not all-out confortable, even prosperous situations. And more power to them for that.

I have a hard time attempting to believe that deep down they want to live in Israel deep down yet somehow have not managed to.

And why should them anyway? Adaptability to different territories and communities is a virtue, not a flaw.

 

[Awoon]

Stop all foreign aid.

 

[LuisDantas]

And modern day Israel was created under circumstances wherein countries like Brazil shut their borders to Jews, effectively consigning many to the camps.

That was under Vargas' Fascism. It is no longer a reality, and hasn't been for decades. The Jewish People in Brazil are hardly in danger, or even treated any differently than anyone else.

Yet you …

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In the historic sense, self determination is a right irrespective of your evaluation, and it is an imperative in part because of your failure.

That just doesn't have a whole lot of meaning. Self-determination is a human impossibility; we are social creatures.

Whatever you truly mean, it is not expressed by your words alone. There are underlying assumptions that would have to be expressed as well, and that I believe I would find unconvincing.

 

[metis]

Let's say that I had a wide, actually prideworthy net of people that see themselves as "my people" (something that is actually absent to me even here in Brazil, mind you) along with your other premises.

I would leave then.

What of it? I don't particularly acknowledge "my country" as a meaningful concept either in the abstract or in the concret senses to begin with.

Give me a good enough reason and I will leave.

Then again, Brazilians are like that. Many do in fact leave the territory, often with no intent of ever returning.

Sorry, but you lost me here. "Building my military up" is just not something that I support. It is a problem disguised as something worthwhile.

That is just too out there for me to have an opinion about. Are you sure that can even happen?

I do wish Brazilians to breed a lot less and become a lot more consequential, if that is what you are asking.

Anyway, I must assume that I would feel worried if I lived in Israel. It stands to be seen whether I would consider it a good idea to aim to remain there, though.

Maybe you would leave, but then maybe you would decide to stay, especially if you're immediate and extended family wanted to stay.

So, why should we leave Israel, as most people in most countries don't? Why shouldn't we be allowed to defend ourselves as basically all other nations do? It's easy to talk about leaving, but it's darn hard to do it, especially if your family and jobs are where you now live. My wife and I almost moved to Canada back in the early 1970's, but it was our family ties that kept us from doing so.

At some point in time many Israelis may choose to leave for protection's sake, especially if certain countries get nuclear weapons. However, even in that eventuality, I'm very convinced that many, if not most, will stay and fight to keep our country.

And it's here that is something that you must understand: there are other countries that are Christian, Muslem, Buddhist, Hindu, etc., that people in various faiths or non-faiths could run to, but the Holocaust taught us a lesson-- there's only one country that's guaranteed to take us Jews in, and that's Israel. Remember, most other countries would not take us in, including even the U.S. during and just before WWII, and that was a very painful and deadly experience for us.

 

[Revoltingest]

Stop all foreign aid.

I've a friend who lives near you (Grafton). He needs medical & dental work, but can't afford it.
Call me a commie if you want, but I'd rather that my taxes aid him than foreign countries.

 

[Awoon]

I've a friend who lives near you (Grafton). He needs medical & dental work, but can't afford it.
Call me a commie if you want, but I'd rather that my taxes aid him than foreign countries.

Absolutely

 

[metis]

Of course. No country should aim to keep a military. It is a matter of basic decency.

I would love to agree with you, but I can't, and that's because of history. As Jews before and during WWII, we had no military, we offered no real threat to the Germans, and look what happened to us. And it wasn't just us-- just ask the Gypsies, the J.W.'s, the homosexuals, the sick & elderly that were killed by the Third Reich, etc. Between them and us, roughly 11 million were murdered by the NAZI's one way or another, and neither of us had our own military or even our own country.

To us, life is important, and that's all human life, and not just ours. And if we respect that, then we have to defend that against those who would want to take it away from of us.

 

[metis]

Foreign aid serves often valuable purposes, and it seems that some are either not aware of that or simply choose to ignore it. Even though American foreign policy is periodically suspect, nevertheless we're not so ignorant so as to just give money away for no reason whatsoever. We have various agreements of various types with many countries throughout the world, and this is very important for a variety of reasons, including our strategic and economic well-being.

Israel has been probably America's closest ally, and we have helped them a lot, and they have helped us a lot as well. Yes, Israel and the U.S. sometimes have disagreements, much like siblings will, but when push comes to shove, we both have a lot to gain by keeping this arrangement.

 

[Awoon]

What does Israel have that America really needs?

 

[LuisDantas]

@Metis: It seems to me that it all comes down to weighting the perceived security of having Israel (despite the undeniable hardships that its very existence brings) with that of living elsewhere, or perhaps of building a Jewish territory elsewhere (political autonomy optional).

You know, in all honesty I admire the acomplishments of the Jewish People while also wondering what else they could accomplish if they had the capability of joining efforts under slightly better chosen goals.

I realize that it is all but impossible to gather the needed support, but the day I hear that there was a consensus of negotiating a schedule for leaving Israel in order to settle somewhere else - say, in Brazil, Argentina or Australia - or just distributing the People around the existing communities, I will be very impressed and relieved indeed. I just might seriously consider applying to conversion, even. It would be quite the pride to even attempt unsuccesfully to be a part of such a community.

 

[metis]

@Metis: It seems to me that it all comes down to weighting the perceived security of having Israel (despite the undeniable hardships that its very existence brings) with that of living elsewhere, or perhaps of building a Jewish territory elsewhere (political autonomy optional).

You know, in all honesty I admire the acomplishments of the Jewish People while also wondering what else they could accomplish if they had the capability of joining efforts under slightly better chosen goals.

I realize that it is all but impossible to gather the needed support, but the day I hear that there was a consensus of negotiating a schedule for leaving Israel in order to settle somewhere else - say, in Brazil, Argentina or Australia - or just distributing the People around the existing communities, I will be very impressed and relieved indeed. I just might seriously consider applying to conversion, even. It would be quite the pride to even attempt unsuccesfully to be a part of such a community.

I don't see our disagreement as being personal in any way-- just different strategies-- and I appreciate your kind words above. We have been shaped by our history as all peoples in all countries have, and at least at this point, most of us have chosen to stay-- but, admittedly, that could change.

BTW, I used to have a foreign exchange student from Brazil (Sao Paulo) in one of my anthropology classes, and I talked her into doing a presentation on life in Brazil, and she did a marvelous job. I also picked her brain a lot as the course went on. She had some "culture shock" shock here, and the Michigan winter she sure wasn't used to, but she survived.

Shalom to you & yours.

 

[metis]

What does Israel have that America really needs?

Please check back at some of my previous posts on this thread.

 

[Awoon]

Please check back at some of my previous posts on this thread.

Israel should make America annex Israel.

 

[Revoltingest]

Israel should make America annex Israel.

If we're to add states, let's start with Ontariostan.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

There is this...
Was Hitler Jewish? | Jewish Virtual Library
To call Hitler a Jew still seems erroneous.

It was also addressed in post #58.

Sadly, there is this condition known as A~S~S (or Antisemitic Sponge Syndrome) whereby the affected brain thoughtlessly and compulsively sops up whatever antisemitic drivel it encounters or imagines, which it then dribbles aimlessly from post to post. Sometimes education helps, but only in those cases where A~S~S can be addressed at its earliest stages.

 

[Revoltingest]

It was also addressed in post #58. Sadly, there is this condition known as A~S~S (or Antisemitic Sponge Syndrome) whereby the affected brain thoughtlessly and compulsively sops up whatever antisemitic drivel it encounters, which it then drips aimlessly from post to post. Sometimes education helps, but only in those cases where A~S~S can be addressed at its earliest stages.

Red herrings prop up many beliefs, eh.
Occam's Razor is useful in politics too.