The Thief on the Cross

[Thief]

We seem to be going in circles. The reason I posted in this forum was to show and discuss the fact that only grace can save. It seems the thief by your own admission is proof or an example of this. I think we are very close about grace. I will add that grace is a commodity that only God has. We believe and HE applies grace to our account. That is exactly what I came here to show. I am unclear what else we have to contend about if you have abandoned your parable claims.

Nay...the works of the Carpenter are sufficient.
They are the saving grace, delivered by His spoken word.
If you keep not His word.....how then to follow?

As for the Thief....his opportunity came as he surrendered his last breath.

The rest of us have parables to consider.

 

[1robin]

Nay...the works of the Carpenter are sufficient.
They are the saving grace, delivered by His spoken word.
If you keep not His word.....how then to follow?

As for the Thief....his opportunity came as he surrendered his last breath.

The rest of us have parables to consider.

What? Are you simply wanting to talk? Do you believe the standard for our moral record that will allow us to dwell with God is perfection?

1. What is true of the thief is true for all of us. God did not give the thief an advantage as a reward for being condemned to die for immorality. That makes no sense. Nor is it an isolated case.
2. The man who had every work he ever did burned up was also saved. Parables were not even mentioned.
3. In fact in no scripture I can remember (there might one or two) are parables ever mentioned by name in connection with salvation.

The case against parables produce salvation is about as clear as possible against the motion. Including several actual examples. If parables could save anyone why did God send his only son to suffer unimaginable agonies and die? You just rendered the core Christian concept (the absence of which renders the entire faith meaningless) pointless. You remind me of that famous case where the teenager was asked "what are you rebelling against?" they replied "what do ya got".

 

[Thief]

What? Are you simply wanting to talk? Do you believe the standard for our moral record that will allow us to dwell with God is perfection?

1. What is true of the thief is true for all of us. God did not give the thief an advantage as a reward for being condemned to die for immorality. That makes no sense. Nor is it an isolated case.
2. The man who had every work he ever did burned up was also saved. Parables were not even mentioned.
3. In fact in no scripture I can remember (there might one or two) are parables ever mentioned by name in connection with salvation.

The case against parables produce salvation is about as clear as possible against the motion. Including several actual examples. If parables could save anyone why did God send his only son to suffer unimaginable agonies and die? You just rendered the core Christian concept (the absence of which renders the entire faith meaningless) pointless. You remind me of that famous case where the teenager was asked "what are you rebelling against?" they replied "what do ya got".

What the Carpenter taught ...He taught as parable.

The Thief is unique.
He followed the Carpenter into paradise....not having heard the good things?

But it seems he knew 'something' about the Carpenter.

And you are conversing with a rogue theologian.
No religion.

 

[1robin]

What the Carpenter taught ...He taught as parable.

Fixing what you claim is becoming monotonous. Jesus taught many ways. Parables are a small part of that.

The Thief is unique.
He followed the Carpenter into paradise....not having heard the good things?

It says nowhere in the Bible that the thief got there some method other than the way everyone else does. In fact it states it was faith and faith alone. However as this is inconvenient for your narrative then we have this bizarre claim. Jesus said there is only on way and one name by which we may be saved. Not one for thief’s and another for everyone else.

But it seems he knew 'something' about the Carpenter.

The last few steps between a superficial intellectual consent to a proposition and the "knowing of a theological truth" is supernatural and I believe this is what happened to the thief. He was given new eyes to see. He was not given new parables to ignore.

And you are conversing with a rogue theologian.

No religion.

Everyone has something that exists where true religion is supposed to. The soul abhors a vacuum. You can invent what you wish but what I find the worst case of all is to adopt parts of the Bible and dismiss other parts. What advantage or use do you think this has? A theology I construct based on convenience will not help me or you when we die. There is no point unless you are one of these people who like to sound spiritual of theological. I do not care what people think I wanted facts, proof, and God and I found all of them by faith in the entire Gospel narrative. Not by baptism, not by parables, not by works of any kind just as the book promises. You have little besides preference on your side.

 

[Thief]

Fixing what you claim is becoming monotonous. Jesus taught many ways. Parables are a small part of that.
It says nowhere in the Bible that the thief got there some method other than the way everyone else does. In fact it states it was faith and faith alone. However as this is inconvenient for your narrative then we have this bizarre claim. Jesus said there is only on way and one name by which we may be saved. Not one for thief’s and another for everyone else.
The last few steps between a superficial intellectual consent to a proposition and the "knowing of a theological truth" is supernatural and I believe this is what happened to the thief. He was given new eyes to see. He was not given new parables to ignore.
Everyone has something that exists where true religion is supposed to. The soul abhors a vacuum. You can invent what you wish but what I find the worst case of all is to adopt parts of the Bible and dismiss other parts. What advantage or use do you think this has? A theology I construct based on convenience will not help me or you when we die. There is no point unless you are one of these people who like to sound spiritual of theological. I do not care what people think I wanted facts, proof, and God and I found all of them by faith in the entire Gospel narrative. Not by baptism, not by parables, not by works of any kind just as the book promises. You have little besides preference on your side.

This speech of yours dismisses all belief...other than your own.

No Jews in heaven?....Moses didn't make it?
No Muslims?....Muhammad unworthy?

No Buddhists?....no Hindus?.....
How about non-believers who.....
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you?

That famous quote was in stone...centuries before the Carpenter.

 

[1robin]

This speech of yours dismisses all belief...other than your own.

Of course I believe what I believe to be true and it (not me) indicates that it is the only way. You may reject it because you do not like it but you can't do so because it isn't true. Christ said only his name can men be saved by, and that HE alone is THE truth, THE way, and THE life. If men have rejected the true God and adopted some false theology and worshiped demons, then on what basis are they eligible? I find it far more consistent with a God that he should reveal one pure revelation instead of hiding mutually exclusive bits of truth in mountains of manmade garbage. I also find it far more consistant with man that he took that truth and rejected it and then invented substitute garbage in it's place, but will be the first to yell foul when judgement arrives.

No Jews in heaven?....Moses didn't make it?
No Muslims?....Muhammad unworthy?

Who said this? Muhammad is screwed, Messianic Jews in the OT and new will be there and that includes Moses.

No Buddhists?....no Hindus?.....

No one that is not born again with the exception of possibly the un-evangelized. You are reasoning with your emotions.

How about non-believers who.....
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you?

If heaven was a reward then maybe this would matter. If anyone had perfectly obeyed any of these moral commands then it still would not matter. The goal is perfection and no one but Christ has merited that status.

That famous quote was in stone...centuries before the Carpenter.

Since I never claimed Christ invented it why is this relevant? Why do you insist on using the term for an occupation there is no evidence he ever worked in and never use the name (Messiah or savior) for the job he is famous for completing. It's off putting, bizarre, and a little unsettling.

 

[cataway]

IMO the terms are synonymous. Even if they are not anyone going to paradise will eventually wind up in heaven. Unless the Catholics have invented another halfway house to Heaven that is. My point is the same either way. The thief was "saved" while talking to Christ and never baptized, followed no ceremony, or performed any works in connection with his salvation.

i do appreciate that you do have an opinion , how ever ,heaven has never been on earth but Paradise has and will return under the kingdom of Jesus the Christ

 

[Thief]

IMO the terms are synonymous. Even if they are not anyone going to paradise will eventually wind up in heaven. Unless the Catholics have invented another halfway house to Heaven that is. My point is the same either way. The thief was "saved" while talking to Christ and never baptized, followed no ceremony, or performed any works in connection with his salvation.

So His frame of mind means nothing?

Still no indication you actually understand grace.

 

[Thief]

Of course I believe what I believe to be true and it (not me) indicates that it is the only way. You may reject it because you do not like it but you can't do so because it isn't true. Christ said only his name can men be saved by, and that HE alone is THE truth, THE way, and THE life. If men have rejected the true God and adopted some false theology and worshiped demons, then on what basis are they eligible? I find it far more consistent with a God that he should reveal one pure revelation instead of hiding mutually exclusive bits of truth in mountains of manmade garbage. I also find it far more consistant with man that he took that truth and rejected it and then invented substitute garbage in it's place, but will be the first to yell foul when judgement arrives.
Who said this? Muhammad is screwed, Messianic Jews in the OT and new will be there and that includes Moses.
No one that is not born again with the exception of possibly the un-evangelized. You are reasoning with your emotions.
If heaven was a reward then maybe this would matter. If anyone had perfectly obeyed any of these moral commands then it still would not matter. The goal is perfection and no one but Christ has merited that status.

Since I never claimed Christ invented it why is this relevant? Why do you insist on using the term for an occupation there is no evidence he ever worked in and never use the name (Messiah or savior) for the job he is famous for completing. It's off putting, bizarre, and a little unsettling.

Unsettled?.....indeed.
And this post of yours shows why.

btw....I don't reason with my feelings.
People that do know me.....know otherwise.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

There are no verses that indicate he had come to faith prior to being hung on the cross. There are further no verses that indicate he was put on the cross for any other reason than theft. And there are certainly none that indicate that anything beyond faith allowed the thief to be saved. Being killed for theft is not what "taking up your cross" means. I did not understand the apostle point.

There are no verses that indicate that he came to the faith while on the cross.

While on the other hand, there are no verses that indicate that he did not come to the faith prior to being hung on the cross, except you shall be with me in paradise, and Christ taught that he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved and he that believeth not shall be damned. And straight and narrow is the way. Baptism is essential, why should I believe that this thief did not confess his sins, get baptized and was then crucified on the cross for confessing his sins?

It is very unlike the vile unrepentant sinner to ask to be remembered by God when they die. Why would he want Christ to remember him after death if he had not invested some amount of faith in performing some kind of action that led up to where he was at that moment? Sense when do the unrepentant sinners place hope in Christ? Did the thief ever once ask forgiveness on the cross? No where I have seen, and so I believe he asked forgiveness before being placed upon the cross and then he had a reason to have a hope in Christ and a hope of salvation through Christ. That hope was his reason why he wanted to be remembered, because at some point he had been forgiven of his sins, something I didn't see happen while he was on the cross.

 

[1robin]

i do appreciate that you do have an opinion , however ,heaven has never been on earth but Paradise has and will return under the kingdom of Jesus the Christ

I have never really investigated the issue. I do believe the heaven will be on Earth but it is not a crucial doctrine to me. I am far more concerned with getting to it where ever it may be. I will post a few of the reasons I believe it will be on Earth and then I wish you to post why it is you believe what you do.

1. Revelation 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.


This is very interesting. The tone is that that suggests God is going to dwell with men, not that men are going to dwell with God. The tabernacle will be with going to man where men are. Men are not going where the tabernacle is.


2. Jerusalem the capital of the world
"Now it shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the LORD’s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow to it. Many people shall come and say, Come and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; he will teach us his ways, and we will walk in his paths. Four out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem." (Isaiah 2:1-4)
http://www.christadelphia.org/pamphlet/p_kingdom.htm#4

On Paradise:
3. Three times in the New Testament we are told of a place called paradise. What is this place? Is it another term for heaven, or does it refer to somewhere different?

Robber On The Cross

Jesus told the robber that was dying next to Him on the cross
Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with Me in paradise" (Luke 23:43).

The robber, that was next to Jesus on the cross, was promised that he would be immediately in God's presence with Jesus.

Paul In Third Heaven

Paul told the Corinthians that he was caught up in the third heaven, which he defines as paradise.

I know a person in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven - whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows. And I know that such a person - whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows - was caught up into Paradise and heard things that are not to be told, that no mortal is permitted to repeat (2 Corinthians 12:2-4).

Therefore paradise means heaven - the special habitation of God.

Paradise Lost

The Book of Revelation also speaks of paradise.
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God (Revelation 2:7).

The reference to the tree of life in Revelation speaks of the paradise that was lost in the Garden of Eden. It has been regained through the sacrifice of Christ on the cross.

Part Of Hades?

Some believe that before the coming of Christ, paradise was a compartment in Hades, or the unseen realm of the dead. It was a region of bliss also known as Abraham's side, or bosom. This was a common belief among the Jews in Jesus' day. When the beggar Lazarus died, Jesus said he went to the same place as Abraham.
The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried (Luke 16:22).

It is argued that these righteous dead went to paradise, not heaven. When Christ ascended into heaven He took paradise, and all the inhabitants, with Him. The verse used to support this view is found in Ephesians.
Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to humanity." (Now this, "He ascended" - what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts - the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) (Ephesians 4:8-10).

Same Place

Others feel that paradise, Abraham's bosom, and heaven are three different descriptions of the same place. Abraham's soul seemed to go to heaven upon death. The writer to the Hebrews wrote the following concerning Abraham and the other heroes of the faith.
or he [Abraham] was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God. . . . But as it is, they [the Old Testament saints] desire a better country, that is a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them (Hebrews 11:10,16).

In Heaven

The psalmist seemed to imply that he would go to heaven upon death.
You guide me with Your counsel, and afterward You will take me into glory. Whom have I in heaven but You? And earth has nothing I desire besides You (Psalm 73:24,25).

However, the information we have on this subject is not clear enough to make any final conclusion.

Summary

The word paradise is a synonym of heaven. The three times it is used in Scripture all refer to the presence of the Lord. Some feel paradise was a distinct place from God's presence during the Old Testament period. This however, is not necessarily the case.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/stewart.cfm?id=149

As I said I have never felt an urgency to establish my personal doctrine on this issue and I would be interested to hear what you think. The case I have made is not bad but is certainly not iron clad.

 

[1robin]

So His frame of mind means nothing?

Still no indication you actually understand grace.

Thief, I think you are being contentious because you want to. You are retracing the same steps from long ago. I have answered the last three questions or points you have made several times. It appears not to help.

 

[1robin]

Unsettled?.....indeed.
And this post of yours shows why.

btw....I don't reason with my feelings.
People that do know me.....know otherwise.

I get it you do not like Christ's exclusive claims and therefor do not accept them. You chose what you wish to be true and then expect reality to adjust accordingly. I see no profit in that and take truth as I find it. I also see that you provided no evidence Jesus was a carpenter yet you will continue to refer to him as that and that is just a single example of what I just said. You see things as you wish them to be.

 

[1robin]

There are no verses that indicate that he did not come to the faith prior to being hung on the cross,

It is quite invalid to argue that X is true unless history specifically says it isn't. The Bible does not say that Jesus wasn't green, the center of the Earth is made of marshmallow, or that heaven will be in a bowling alley. Is all true as well?

except you shall be with me in paradise, and Christ taught that he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved and he that believeth not shall be damned. And straight and narrow is the way. Baptism is essential, why should I believe that this thief did not confess his sins, get baptized and was then crucified on the cross for confessing his sins?

Hydrogen and water have no redemptive properties, Christ has nothing lacking that water could make up, and baptism is simply another work. The Bible makes it very clear that salvation is not of works. Baptism is a ceremony that indicates what Christ had already accomplished. When Christ said "It is finished" had you been there you would have yelled "not quite". When Christ said "he forgave all sin" you should have said "almost all". When he said that he is the way, the truth, and the life you could say "Christ and fill in the blank associated with whatever your denomination told you". First the thief is never even hinted to have been baptized, the man in 1 Cor 3:15 had every single work he ever did burned up, and you would send tens of thousands of soldiers who accepted Christ in their last moments but were too shot up to be baptized before dying, to Hell because the Christ you believe in was insufficient. Are you born again? How do you know? If you do not mind my asking.

Question: "Is baptism necessary for salvation? What is baptismal regeneration?"

Answer: Baptismal regeneration is the belief that a person must be baptized in order to be saved. It is our contention that baptism is an important step of obedience for a Christian, but we adamantly reject baptism as being required for salvation. We strongly believe that each and every Christian should be water baptized by immersion. Baptism illustrates a believer’s identification with Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection. Romans 6:3-4 declares, “Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.” The action of being immersed in the water illustrates dying and being buried with Christ. The action of coming out of the water pictures Christ’s resurrection.

Requiring anything in addition to faith in Jesus Christ for salvation is a works-based salvation. To add anything to the gospel is to say that Jesus' death on the cross was not sufficient to purchase our salvation. To say we must be baptized in order to be saved is to say we must add our own good works and obedience to Christ's death in order to make it sufficient for salvation. Jesus' death alone paid for our sins (Romans 5:8; 2 Corinthians 5:21). Jesus' payment for our sins is appropriated to our “account” by faith alone (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8-9). Therefore, baptism is an important step of obedience after salvation but cannot be a requirement for salvation.


Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-salvation.html#ixzz2ScQmuSgF

The greatest discourse on salvation in the Bible is in John 3. It never even mentions water Baptism.

It is very unlike the vile unrepentant sinner to ask to be remembered by God when they die.

There have been countless cases where vile men repent when they see the end is near.

Why would he want Christ to remember him after death if he had not invested some amount of faith in performing some kind of action that led up to where he was at that moment?

The same way I did. I studied for many years but the last big leap of faith was based on supernatural revelation. I learned many things previously as the thief would have in his day. I like him went from intellectual consent to absolute belief in an instant and because of supernatural revelation. I was given new eyes to see.

Sense when do the unrepentant sinners place hope in Christ?

When facing death as a consequence of their actions.

Did the thief ever once ask forgiveness on the cross?

It is the condition of the heart not the syllables formed by the tongue that seeks forgiveness. The thief indicated this in no uncertain terms by saying they were receiving what they deserved but Christ was not.

No where I have seen, and so I believe he asked forgiveness before being placed upon the cross and then he had a reason to have a hope in Christ and a hope of salvation through Christ. That hope was his reason why he wanted to be remembered, because at some point he had been forgiven of his sins, something I didn't see happen while he was on the cross.

This is an assumption based in preference and silence.

Why was your repentant thief not repentant earlier?
When seeking what we can learn from the thief on the cross, it should be remembered that at the time of Jesus’ crucifixion, two thieves were crucified beside Him (Luke 23:33-43), and both began their time on the cross by mocking and blaspheming Him, as did many of the spectators.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/thief-on-the-cross.html#ixzz2ScT3Hl54

I think it far more reasonable that he was familiar with Christ and his message but it became real to him on the cross as very trying times have a way of allowing.

 

[Thief]

I get it you do not like Christ's exclusive claims and therefor do not accept them. You chose what you wish to be true and then expect reality to adjust accordingly. I see no profit in that and take truth as I find it. I also see that you provided no evidence Jesus was a carpenter yet you will continue to refer to him as that and that is just a single example of what I just said. You see things as you wish them to be.

As I stated earlier .....against your shallow accusation...
I do not reason with my heart.

Have we not already agreed?
The Thief was not saved by parable.....or good works....

So the question you claim to have answered remains.

What is the saving grace?

 

[1robin]

As I stated earlier .....against your shallow accusation...
I do not reason with my heart.

Have we not already agreed?
The Thief was not saved by parable.....or good works....

So the question you claim to have answered remains.

What is the saving grace?

Not doing it for the fourth time, as I have previously said.

 

[Thief]

Not doing it for the fourth time, as I have previously said.

Ok....I will do it for you.
The Thief was saved by self realization.
A change of mind and heart.

The Carpenter saw it.
Then spoke as He did.

It was not the teachings of the Carpenter.....as you say....
It was not good works....he was a thief.
And it wasn't permission or grace bestowed.

 

[1robin]

Ok....I will do it for you.
The Thief was saved by self realization.
A change of mind and heart.

The Carpenter saw it.
Then spoke as He did.

It was not the teachings of the Carpenter.....as you say....
It was not good works....he was a thief.
And it wasn't permission or grace bestowed.

The thief had no grace to apply to his life. Grace is not a commodity, it is a concept. It is a concept that only God can apply. God's granting of something which the thief's record did not merit is grace applied. Christ's words simply echoed and affirmed what God had done. BTW if you already thought you knew what it was why did you not simply say so 10 posts ago? It would have simplified things quite a bit.

 

[Thief]

The thief had no grace to apply to his life. Grace is not a commodity, it is a concept. It is a concept that only God can apply. God's granting of something which the thief's record did not merit is grace applied. Christ's words simply echoed and affirmed what God had done. BTW if you already thought you knew what it was why did you not simply say so 10 posts ago? It would have simplified things quite a bit.

Now you're preaching mind control.
I'm not buying it.

The Thief came to terms with his life....and his death.
His request for remembrance was appropriate.

The Carpenter saw it...and His words in response were affirmation.
Not anything else ....or more.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

It is quite invalid to argue that X is true unless history specifically says it isn't. The Bible does not say that Jesus wasn't green, the center of the Earth is made of marshmallow, or that heaven will be in a bowling alley. Is all true as well?
Hydrogen and water have no redemptive properties, Christ has nothing lacking that water could make up, and baptism is simply another work. The Bible makes it very clear that salvation is not of works. Baptism is a ceremony that indicates what Christ had already accomplished. When Christ said "It is finished" had you been there you would have yelled "not quite". When Christ said "he forgave all sin" you should have said "almost all". When he said that he is the way, the truth, and the life you could say "Christ and fill in the blank associated with whatever your denomination told you". First the thief is never even hinted to have been baptized, the man in 1 Cor 3:15 had every single work he ever did burned up, and you would send tens of thousands of soldiers who accepted Christ in their last moments but were too shot up to be baptized before dying, to Hell because the Christ you believe in was insufficient. Are you born again? How do you know? If you do not mind my asking.

Question: "Is baptism necessary for salvation? What is baptismal regeneration?"

Answer: Baptismal regeneration is the belief that a person must be baptized in order to be saved. It is our contention that baptism is an important step of obedience for a Christian, but we adamantly reject baptism as being required for salvation. We strongly believe that each and every Christian should be water baptized by immersion. Baptism illustrates a believer’s identification with Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection. Romans 6:3-4 declares, “Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.” The action of being immersed in the water illustrates dying and being buried with Christ. The action of coming out of the water pictures Christ’s resurrection.

Requiring anything in addition to faith in Jesus Christ for salvation is a works-based salvation. To add anything to the gospel is to say that Jesus' death on the cross was not sufficient to purchase our salvation. To say we must be baptized in order to be saved is to say we must add our own good works and obedience to Christ's death in order to make it sufficient for salvation. Jesus' death alone paid for our sins (Romans 5:8; 2 Corinthians 5:21). Jesus' payment for our sins is appropriated to our “account” by faith alone (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8-9). Therefore, baptism is an important step of obedience after salvation but cannot be a requirement for salvation.


Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-salvation.html#ixzz2ScQmuSgF

The greatest discourse on salvation in the Bible is in John 3. It never even mentions water Baptism.

There have been countless cases where vile men repent when they see the end is near.

The same way I did. I studied for many years but the last big leap of faith was based on supernatural revelation. I learned many things previously as the thief would have in his day. I like him went from intellectual consent to absolute belief in an instant and because of supernatural revelation. I was given new eyes to see.

When facing death as a consequence of their actions.
It is the condition of the heart not the syllables formed by the tongue that seeks forgiveness. The thief indicated this in no uncertain terms by saying they were receiving what they deserved but Christ was not.

This is an assumption based in preference and silence.

Why was your repentant thief not repentant earlier?
When seeking what we can learn from the thief on the cross, it should be remembered that at the time of Jesus’ crucifixion, two thieves were crucified beside Him (Luke 23:33-43), and both began their time on the cross by mocking and blaspheming Him, as did many of the spectators.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/thief-on-the-cross.html#ixzz2ScT3Hl54

I think it far more reasonable that he was familiar with Christ and his message but it became real to him on the cross as very trying times have a way of allowing.

Are you not making an argument that the theif came to the faith while on the cross, when it does not state anywhere that that is what happened?

I agree that water has no spiritually redeeming properties, but the making of a covenant with God does have spiritually redeeming properties and if that covenant is made through the medium of water then there are your redeeming properties.

I believe that not everyone has the opportunity to get baptized in this life, it is for this reason that baptisms for the dead are essential.

I believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel of Jesus Christ are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
First comes the hope for something better in this life (forgiveness, salvation, the fact that God might exist and that he might be aware of me)
Second comes the Faith, the desire to act upon my hopes. I hope that if I speak to God he will hear me and so I exercise faith and pray.
As I pray and continue to exercise the faith I have developed a knowledge of God comes into my heart and I realize that I need to change and be better in order to stand straight before God, I need God's forgiveness and so I pray and ask God for his forgiveness and strive to do my best to right my wrongs and be a better person and God invites me to make a covenant with him and be baptized. In this covenant I promise to follow God and keep his commandments and he promises me forgiveness and salvation and to help me keep my promises he blesses me with the Holy Ghost to be my constant companion and help me stand as a light unto the world. It is through this process that the natural man is uprooted out of me and I am born again as a spiritual man and so long as I stand worthy I will have the Holy Ghost as my companion to shine as a witness that I truly have been born again in Christ. Thus has been my experience in being born again.