The Thief on the Cross

[Thief]

Are you not making an argument that the theif came to the faith while on the cross, when it does not state anywhere that that is what happened?

I agree that water has no spiritually redeeming properties, but the making of a covenant with God does have spiritually redeeming properties and if that covenant is made through the medium of water then there are your redeeming properties.

I believe that not everyone has the opportunity to get baptized in this life, it is for this reason that baptisms for the dead are essential.

I believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel of Jesus Christ are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
First comes the hope for something better in this life (forgiveness, salvation, the fact that God might exist and that he might be aware of me)
Second comes the Faith, the desire to act upon my hopes. I hope that if I speak to God he will hear me and so I exercise faith and pray.
As I pray and continue to exercise the faith I have developed a knowledge of God comes into my heart and I realize that I need to change and be better in order to stand straight before God, I need God's forgiveness and so I pray and ask God for his forgiveness and strive to do my best to right my wrongs and be a better person and God invites me to make a covenant with him and be baptized. In this covenant I promise to follow God and keep his commandments and he promises me forgiveness and salvation and to help me keep my promises he blesses me with the Holy Ghost to be my constant companion and help me stand as a light unto the world. It is through this process that the natural man is uprooted out of me and I am born again as a spiritual man and so long as I stand worthy I will have the Holy Ghost as my companion to shine as a witness that I truly have been born again in Christ. Thus has been my experience in being born again.

And the Thief had such events?

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

And the Thief had such events?

"Please Lord when you get to heaven, remember me, and remember all of those people I stole from through out my life and how I hurt them to the point of deserving to be crucified."
Why did the thief want to be remembered???
Perhaps the thief wanted God to punish him for his crimes.... I don't think so, that is not at all the impression that I get.

As I said before, I believe the reason he desired Christ to remember him was because he exercised some amount of faith which led up to him being put on the cross. Why else would he want to be remembered? Did the thief ever once ask forgiveness while on the cross? No where that I have seen and so I believe it must of happened at some other time. It makes the most sense to me, not to mention it feels right. Why else would he want to be remembered?

 

[1robin]

Now you're preaching mind control.
I'm not buying it.

The Thief came to terms with his life....and his death.
His request for remembrance was appropriate.

The Carpenter saw it...and His words in response were affirmation.
Not anything else ....or more.

Thief you are truly unique. It appears you simply want to disagree with whatever is said so you can discuss it further. There exists no preaching nor mind control with anything I said. The thief is not in possession of grace. God is. The thief’s job is faith, once faith is reached (with God's help) then God applies the concept of grace to the thief. The exact same theme exists in the entire Bible, first to last.
You seem to be saying that the thief saved himself through some grace he possessed. It is specifically because we have nothing to repair the breech our rebellion caused that Jesus had to die. It is infinite. Faith will not even repair it. However faith enables God through a covenant centered on the literal blood of Christ to repair the infinite chasm.

My understanding about the thief meets every single fact known.

1. The thief was ungodly and had never truly repented.
2. He however knew of God and Christ but had never committed his life to either.
3. He wound up on the cross and in circumstances that forced a deep review of what he thought concerning God.
4. He initially ridiculed Christ with the others. However he apparently began to think differently.
5. I believe God saw that his attitude was at such a state that will God's help the thief might come to believe (fully) in the messiah, repentance, and God.
6. With God's help the thief realized the truth and his heart repented of it's rebellion.
7. God forgave him (on the basis of what Jesus was doing), wrote his name in the book of life, applied God's grace to his account, and sent the Holy Spirit to live in his heart.
8. Apparently Jesus was aware of all this in his spirit and gave his oral ascent to what had taken place.

That accounts for and is consistent with all the facts known.

 

[Thief]

Thief you are truly unique. It appears you simply want to disagree with whatever is said so you can discuss it further. There exists no preaching nor mind control with anything I said. The thief is not in possession of grace. God is. The thief’s job is faith, once faith is reached (with God's help) then God applies the concept of grace to the thief. The exact same theme exists in the entire Bible, first to last.
You seem to be saying that the thief saved himself through some grace he possessed. It is specifically because we have nothing to repair the breech our rebellion caused that Jesus had to die. It is infinite. Faith will not even repair it. However faith enables God through a covenant centered on the literal blood of Christ to repair the infinite chasm.

My understanding about the thief meets every single fact known.

1. The thief was ungodly and had never truly repented.
2. He however knew of God and Christ but had never committed his life to either.
3. He wound up on the cross and in circumstances that forced a deep review of what he thought concerning God.
4. He initially ridiculed Christ with the others. However he apparently began to think differently.
5. I believe God saw that his attitude was at such a state that will God's help the thief might come to believe (fully) in the messiah, repentance, and God.
6. With God's help the thief realized the truth and his heart repented of it's rebellion.
7. God forgave him (on the basis of what Jesus was doing), wrote his name in the book of life, applied God's grace to his account, and sent the Holy Spirit to live in his heart.
8. Apparently Jesus was aware of all this in his spirit and gave his oral ascent to what had taken place.

That accounts for and is consistent with all the facts known.

Nay...this post of yours is just another Christian ranting.

I highlighted what you claim the Thief..... did do.

It was indeed the Thief.....coming to realization.....that was the saving grace.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Thief you are truly unique. It appears you simply want to disagree with whatever is said so you can discuss it further. There exists no preaching nor mind control with anything I said. The thief is not in possession of grace. God is. The thief’s job is faith, once faith is reached (with God's help) then God applies the concept of grace to the thief. The exact same theme exists in the entire Bible, first to last.
You seem to be saying that the thief saved himself through some grace he possessed. It is specifically because we have nothing to repair the breech our rebellion caused that Jesus had to die. It is infinite. Faith will not even repair it. However faith enables God through a covenant centered on the literal blood of Christ to repair the infinite chasm.

My understanding about the thief meets every single fact known.

1. The thief was ungodly and had never truly repented.
2. He however knew of God and Christ but had never committed his life to either.
3. He wound up on the cross and in circumstances that forced a deep review of what he thought concerning God.
4. He initially ridiculed Christ with the others. However he apparently began to think differently.
5. I believe God saw that his attitude was at such a state that will God's help the thief might come to believe (fully) in the messiah, repentance, and God.
6. With God's help the thief realized the truth and his heart repented of it's rebellion.
7. God forgave him (on the basis of what Jesus was doing), wrote his name in the book of life, applied God's grace to his account, and sent the Holy Spirit to live in his heart.
8. Apparently Jesus was aware of all this in his spirit and gave his oral ascent to what had taken place.

That accounts for and is consistent with all the facts known.

1) How do you know the thief never truly repented?
2) How do you know the thief never committed his life to God?
3) How do you know the thief ridiculed Christ with the others?

 

[Thief]

"Please Lord when you get to heaven, remember me, and remember all of those people I stole from through out my life and how I hurt them to the point of deserving to be crucified."
Why did the thief want to be remembered???
Perhaps the thief wanted God to punish him for his crimes.... I don't think so, that is not at all the impression that I get.

As I said before, I believe the reason he desired Christ to remember him was because he exercised some amount of faith which led up to him being put on the cross. Why else would he want to be remembered? Did the thief ever once ask forgiveness while on the cross? No where that I have seen and so I believe it must of happened at some other time. It makes the most sense to me, not to mention it feels right. Why else would he want to be remembered?

Remembrance has nothing to do with Christian faith.
Neither the Carpenter or the Thief were Christian.

A forgotten soul is lost to oblivion.....
an existence wherein no one thinks about you.....you are forgotten.

It is the most humble of asking.....'remember me'.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Remembrance has nothing to do with Christian faith.
Neither the Carpenter or the Thief were Christian.

A forgotten soul is lost to oblivion.....
an existence wherein no one thinks about you.....you are forgotten.

It is the most humble of asking.....'remember me'.

He asked to be remembered, but it does not say why he was asking to be remembered.

We have
1) He was previously converted before being put on the cross, and invested Faith and Hope in Christ and confessed his sins which was why the people crucified him. He then asked Christ to remember him for reassurance that things were going to be okay and that Christ would hold up to his end of the covenant.

2) He feared ceasing to exist as the Jehovah's Witnesses believe and wanted to continue to exist in the memory of God so he could be recreated someday.

3) He was suddenly converted while on the cross and because he believed Jesus is the Christ he was instantly worthy of paradise. Because of this he wanted Christ to not forget him and remember "Hey, I turned to you at the last second, I deserve paradise."

 

[Thief]

He asked to be remembered, but it does not say why he was asking to be remembered.

We have
1) He was previously converted before being put on the cross, and invested Faith and Hope in Christ and confessed his sins which was why the people crucified him. He then asked Christ to remember him for reassurance that things were going to be okay and that Christ would hold up to his end of the covenant.

2) He feared ceasing to exist as the Jehovah's Witnesses believe and wanted to continue to exist in the memory of God so he could be recreated someday.

3) He was suddenly converted while on the cross and because he believed Jesus is the Christ he was instantly worthy of paradise. Because of this he wanted Christ to not forget him and remember "Hey, I turned to you at the last second, I deserve paradise."

Number two is close....leaving out the 'recreate'
The kingdom is not of this world.

But to reference as a more current religion would be inappropriate.
The Thief and the Carpenter were Jews.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Number two is close....leaving out the 'recreate'
The kingdom is not of this world.

But to reference as a more current religion would be inappropriate.
The Thief and the Carpenter were Jews.

And the the Jews had differing views as to the after life. Some believed in spirits and a spirit world, while others denied it. Such was one of the big debates between the Pharasees and the Sadjucees.

 

[Thief]

And the the Jews had differing views as to the after life. Some believed in spirits and a spirit world, while others denied it. Such was one of the big debates between the Pharasees and the Sadjucees.

Shall then impose as much upon the Thief?

I might ask of you....what was the saving grace?

 

[Tranquil Servant]

I felt compelled to display the verses which tell the story about the "criminal" and Christ....
Luke 23:39-43
39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”
40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”
42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[d]”
43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Notice the first criminal who spoke to Jesus was questioning Jesus about being the Messiah and mocking him by displaying doubt. At the same time this criminal did not want to take responsibility or suffer the consequences for what he had done.
However, the other criminal realizing they were about to die, admitted and confessed he had done wrong and deserved his punishment; while acknowledging Jesus as the Son of God someone they should respect (or fear) who was innocent and did not deserve to die. He displayed his faith by asking Christ to remember him when he comes into his kingdom. By him asking Christ to remember him when he comes into his kingdom meant:
1) He knew he was guilty and didn't deserve to enter into the Kingdom of Christ.--His confession
BUT
Mark 2:17 On hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

2) Since he knew he was guilty, he humbled himself and was willing to give up (sacrifice) his life and suffer the consequences of his guilt; because although he believed Jesus to be the Son of God, did not ask him to save his life; not like the other (first) criminal who wanted to save his life. Also, he knew he was about to die and wasn't ashamed to declare Jesus the Son of God even though the other criminals (and soldiers) were insulting Jesus. Humility usually leads to repentance.--His repentance
Mark 8:34 [ The Way of the Cross ] Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.
Mark 8:35 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it.

3) He believed Jesus was the Son of God, Savior and prophesied messiah. He had faith that Jesus was divine and would reign as King.--His faith
Matthew 2:2 and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.”
John 18:36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

Confession+Repentance+Faith (not necessarily in this order)= Salvation.
4) The Messiah assured him salvation
Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you today you will be with me in paradise.” The minute he repented and accepted Christ, he was granted the gift of salvation which was promised by God. you don't need to be baptized to show repentance. Baptism is a public symbolic declaration but what is it worth if it doesn't mean anything to the person being baptized. Although the thief wasn't baptized he did publicly declare his repentance and faith. His confession and willingness to pay the consequence while proclaiming Jesus the Messiah, was his public declaration.
Matthew 10:32-33
32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.

 

[Thief]

I felt compelled to display the verses which tell the story about the "criminal" and Christ....
Luke 23:39-43
39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”
40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”
42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[d]”
43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Notice the first criminal who spoke to Jesus was questioning Jesus about being the Messiah and mocking him by displaying doubt. At the same time this criminal did not want to take responsibility or suffer the consequences for what he had done.
However, the other criminal realizing they were about to die, admitted and confessed he had done wrong and deserved his punishment; while acknowledging Jesus as the Son of God someone they should respect (or fear) who was innocent and did not deserve to die. He displayed his faith by asking Christ to remember him when he comes into his kingdom. By him asking Christ to remember him when he comes into his kingdom meant:
1) He knew he was guilty and didn't deserve to enter into the Kingdom of Christ.--His confession
BUT
Mark 2:17 On hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

2) Since he knew he was guilty, he humbled himself and was willing to give up (sacrifice) his life and suffer the consequences of his guilt; because although he believed Jesus to be the Son of God, did not ask him to save his life; not like the other (first) criminal who wanted to save his life. Also, he knew he was about to die and wasn't ashamed to declare Jesus the Son of God even though the other criminals (and soldiers) were insulting Jesus. Humility usually leads to repentance.--His repentance
Mark 8:34 [ The Way of the Cross ] Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.
Mark 8:35 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it.

3) He believed Jesus was the Son of God, Savior and prophesied messiah. He had faith that Jesus was divine and would reign as King.--His faith
Matthew 2:2 and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.”
John 18:36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

Confession+Repentance+Faith (not necessarily in this order)= Salvation.
4) The Messiah assured him salvation
Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you today you will be with me in paradise.” The minute he repented and accepted Christ, he was granted the gift of salvation which was promised by God. you don't need to be baptized to show repentance. Baptism is a public symbolic declaration but what is it worth if it doesn't mean anything to the person being baptized. Although the thief wasn't baptized he did publicly declare his repentance and faith. His confession and willingness to pay the consequence while proclaiming Jesus the Messiah, was his public declaration.
Matthew 10:32-33
32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.

Not buying it. Too much embellishment.

The Thief was caught, tried, and convicted under roman law.
There is no sacrifice to God.

There was admittance to his life style and acceptance of the consequence.
This is not confession.
The opportunity for repentance was long gone.

There was no pronouncement by the Thief, that the Man beside him might be the Son of God.

The mention of the Fear of God was not dealt to honor the Carpenter....
but to remind the other thief, the last hour belongs between you....and God.
It should not be spent in bitter pronouncement.

If you wanted to justify the Thief by scripture....
you could have referred to the Prodigal Son.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Shall then impose as much upon the Thief?

I might ask of you....what was the saving grace?

The very fact that man can be forgiven is grace.

Yet beware
"Yea, and there shall be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die; and it shall be well with us.

And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark."

I believe in grace and that Christ is continually opening his arms to receive us as a hen gatherer her chicks under her wings this is grace.
However Christ forces no man to repent and come unto him, this is where faith comes into play and it takes some effort on our part to get up and go unto Christ. Hence the invitation "Come unto me." As James has stated, faith without works is dead, it takes more than a mere belief in Christ to be saved, for even the devils believe in Christ and tremble before him. It takes work and commitment to follow in someone's foot steps.

I believe we are saved by grace, through faith.
Grace is the open arms waiting to receive you and faith is the steps one takes to get to those open arms.

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

 

[1robin]

Nay...this post of yours is just another Christian ranting.

I highlighted what you claim the Thief..... did do.

It was indeed the Thief.....coming to realization.....that was the saving grace.

Thief it seems you simply deny and accept what is true based on what you like. What I said explains every fact and what you like can't change that. What I do not get is why you think what you like is a useful way to decide what is true? I do not think at the judgement the question will be "well did you discover what you wish to be true"?

 

[1robin]

1) How do you know the thief never truly repented?

I do not know it. I think it rational because he was part of the earlier taunting unless the theory that there were more than two criminal sis correct. My claims about these events in that list I posted are not stating fact but what I believe is consistent with the facts.

2) How do you know the thief never committed his life to God?

Same reason and the fact he was sentenced to death for criminal actions. The Romans thought his recent behavior worthy of death and his title of thief suggests the chanrges were legitimate.

3)How do you know the thief ridiculed Christ with the others?

(Matthew 27:44):"The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth."
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Did_both_thieves_ridicule_Jesus_on_the_cross
or
"At that time two robbers were crucified with Him, one on the right and one on the left. . . .The robbers who had been crucified with Him were also insulting Him with the same words"
(Matthew 27:38, 44).
http://www.biblecourses.com/English/downloads/pdfs/CrossLessons/038.Between_Two_Thieves.pdf

Of Course without being there I can't be sure but it seems many people mistake the accounts in the Gospels about the thief’s to be synonymous when they are actually about events at different times. Every Chronological harmony I have ever seen has several sequential events giving details about the thieves. It appears one changed his mind.

Catholicism while doing some things better than any denomination (spiritual warfare, etc) has IMO done more damage to Christianity than any group of any kind. They unfortunately established "early" traditions of interpretation that unfortunately have superseded the scriptures many times. I think this is an example of that. I make every effort to exclude preference from my exegesis and read scripture as it is.

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

-Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
-Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
-1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.



Blessings...
SC

 

[1robin]

-Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
-Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
-1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.



Blessings...
SC

I am not sure the purpose you intended for this, but it seems to support my position and my list of probable events on the cross. I also do not think anyone contends that the thief was not saved when he said this and so again, I do not understand the purpose of posting it but they are powerfull verses.

 

[Thief]

Thief it seems you simply deny and accept what is true based on what you like. What I said explains every fact and what you like can't change that. What I do not get is why you think what you like is a useful way to decide what is true? I do not think at the judgement the question will be "well did you discover what you wish to be true"?

Not at all.

I simply refrain to embellish the event into a Christian salvation rant.

The Thief was saved......but that had nothing to do with Jesus.

It was indeed the mind and heart of the Thief coming to terms with his fate.

When the Carpenter spoke as He did.....it was only as what follows the event at hand.

Of course the Thief followed the Carpenter into paradise.
He was able to.

 

[1robin]

Not at all.

I simply refrain to embellish the event into a Christian salvation rant.

The Thief was saved......but that had nothing to do with Jesus.

It was indeed the mind and heart of the Thief coming to terms with his fate.

When the Carpenter spoke as He did.....it was only as what follows the event at hand.

Of course the Thief followed the Carpenter into paradise.
He was able to.

If you can't defend the use of Carpenter for Christ then you should not use it. In fact I have never heard anyone else do so. Even if true it is meaningless to call him that unless it is intended to draw attention from the roll that there is evidence of "savior". As has been demonstrated quite a bit the standard is perfection. It is only Christ's perfect record the meets it. Unless Christ's record is applied to our life then we do not meet God's standards, that is the necessity that had Christ on the cross next to the thief. It is also the message that God validated by resurrecting him. If Christ did not rise then you might have a case, since he did your case is DOA. Without Christ's blood on what basis was the thief forgiven? Only because God's wrath was poured out on Christ are we able to enter heaven. God does not say "oh well your sorry" and hand wave away sin. It cost the highest of prices to repair and why it's denial will doom us forever. Why would the thief have been interested in using his last breaths to ask Christ to remember him? If I am on the way out I will ask no preacher, teacher, or human to remember me, as they are as guilty and powerless as I am to get me into heaven. You are certainly free to believe as you wish but you can't call it Christianity and you shouldn't call Christ a mere carpenter. He was either the greatest of liars or the savior of man. An occupational label with no evidence is just silly.

 

[Thief]

If you can't defend the use of Carpenter for Christ then you should not use it. In fact I have never heard anyone else do so. Even if true it is meaningless to call him that unless it is intended to draw attention from the roll that there is evidence of "savior". As has been demonstrated quite a bit the standard is perfection. It is only Christ's perfect record the meets it. Unless Christ's record is applied to our life then we do not meet God's standards, that is the necessity that had Christ on the cross next to the thief. It is also the message that God validated by resurrecting him. If Christ did not rise then you might have a case, since he did your case is DOA. Without Christ's blood on what basis was the thief forgiven? Only because God's wrath was poured out on Christ are we able to enter heaven. God does not say "oh well your sorry" and hand wave away sin. It cost the highest of prices to repair and why it's denial will doom us forever. Why would the thief have been interested in using his last breaths to ask Christ to remember him? If I am on the way out I will ask no preacher, teacher, or human to remember me, as they are as guilty and powerless as I am to get me into heaven. You are certainly free to believe as you wish but you can't call it Christianity and you shouldn't call Christ a mere carpenter. He was either the greatest of liars or the savior of man. An occupational label with no evidence is just silly.

The only portion to answer is highlighted.
And I have repeated and clearly stated as much in recent postings.

Try referring to the Prodigal Son.
No blood there.