The Torah (Jews and Muslims)

[F0uad]

As I said before, it is really not a problem for Moses to write a text about him at the 3rd person, specially when he is being told exactly what to write. He is merely writing the narration he is listening to.

"To this day" or "עַ֖ד הַיֹּ֥ום הַזֶּֽה" is often used in the Torah. It is used to show that a certain event, or law, or anything else is valid and applicable in the time of the reader. Now, say this wasn't true... It doesn't change the fact that it doesn't really matter what Moses is writing, or that it is Moses writing it either... God was basically the one writing it, through the hands of a human being who happened to be Moses.

There are many 3rd person views on the Torah what makes no sense (with all respect). Lets just go further on what we are discussing here.
You are saying that God wrote about Moses(pbuh) in a 3rd person view but please pay close attention to the text lets start by verse 1:

1 Then Moses climbed Mount Nebo from the plains of Moab to the top of Pisgah, across from Jericho. There the LORD showed him the whole land--from Gilead to Dan,

-Lets say God spoke true Moses(pbuh) and makes Moses(pbuh) a 3rd person why would God address himself also as a 3rd person and not as I?

Then again in verse 4: Then the LORD said to him,

And Moses the servant of the LORD died (two 3rd person views here)

And in verse 9 we can clearly see that ''LORD had commanded Moses'' therefore not speaking or writing true him but commanding him.

 

[Union]

I don't quite understand the purpose of this post... are you trying to prove the Torah wrong by saying that it contradicts science? If so, well that's no proof at all since what science believes is all theory. Has science not been wrong before?

You are been told that the position of Muslim regarding the Torah is , it is no longer a 100% words of GOD . It was distorted by human in latter stages , hence Torah is now a blend of true words of GOD plus fallible human statements .

The above example is one of the fallible statement from latter human distortion and of course not from GOD . It is a established/proven science that sun is older than the earth . The decay of radioactive elements - the radio metric age dating and nuclear physics on the nature of sun confirm this fact . To deny this is like to deny the earth to be round .

 

[Union]

As I said before, it is really not a problem for Moses to write a text about him at the 3rd person, specially when he is being told exactly what to write. He is merely writing the narration he is listening to.

"To this day" or "עַ֖ד הַיֹּ֥ום הַזֶּֽה" is often used in the Torah. It is used to show that a certain event, or law, or anything else is valid and applicable in the time of the reader. Now, say this wasn't true... It doesn't change the fact that it doesn't really matter what Moses is writing, or that it is Moses writing it either... God was basically the one writing it, through the hands of a human being who happened to be Moses.

Fouad has told you something about the person , I no need to discuss it again here . This a fact that Jewish scholars are uncertain about it as they divided in the opinions whether it was a statement from Joshua or from Moses himself or from GOD . Therefore let me leave you with your speculation . We tried to give a perfect grammatical and logical way to deal with the problem but seems like you are more comfortable with your speculation avoiding those logical parameters . Anyway , there is no compulsion in religion .

 

[dantech]

There are many 3rd person views on the Torah what makes no sense (with all respect). Lets just go further on what we are discussing here.
You are saying that God wrote about Moses(pbuh) in a 3rd person view but please pay close attention to the text lets start by verse 1:

1 Then Moses climbed Mount Nebo from the plains of Moab to the top of Pisgah, across from Jericho. There the LORD showed him the whole land--from Gilead to Dan,

-Lets say God spoke true Moses(pbuh) and makes Moses(pbuh) a 3rd person why would God address himself also as a 3rd person and not as I?

Then again in verse 4: Then the LORD said to him,

And Moses the servant of the LORD died (two 3rd person views here)

And in verse 9 we can clearly see that ''LORD had commanded Moses'' therefore not speaking or writing true him but commanding him.

To truly understand this, you would need to study Kabalah. There is a notion we have of Sephirot which is very difficult to understand. In a way, Sephirot splits God into categories, but all while staying one God.

In this case, it is the Essence of God that is narrating the Torah. Although it is the same being, it is just like having multiple personalities, in a way.
God has many names which each describes some of his qualities. The names used in the Torah are here to describe his relationship with us. But there is a higher level, which we have knowledge of yet can't describe, that is considered the Essence of holiness. This is where the Torah comes from, and this is why it is written in the third person

 

[dantech]

Fouad has told you something about the person , I no need to discuss it again here . This a fact that Jewish scholars are uncertain about it as they divided in the opinions whether it was a statement from Joshua or from Moses himself or from GOD . Therefore let me leave you with your speculation . We tried to give a perfect grammatical and logical way to deal with the problem but seems like you are more comfortable with your speculation avoiding those logical parameters . Anyway , there is no compulsion in religion .

No offense, but before you say something is fact, make sure you know as much as possible about the subject. There are varying opinions on who was the one to physically write it, but there is no confusion as to why it is at the third person. Perhaps you are the one who is avoiding things. You think you can be logical on a subject without knowing all the variables, but it doesn't work like that. You can't do algebra without knowing how to add and subtract

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Would it not make more sense to take your debate to a more appropriate forum?

 

[dantech]

Would it not make more sense to take your debate to a more appropriate forum?

It would. It didn't start of as a debate though

 

[SageTree]

***Mod post***

Moved from 'Islamic DIR'
Moved to 'Same Faith Debates'

Staff has reached consensus that this thread has become more a debate and would best be suited in 'Same Faith Debates'

**********************
​

 

[Rakhel]

The question from the gallery is If G-d can write the "ten Commandments" in stone, why is it impossible for him to write in third person on papyrus?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

But ...

if God can do anything why is it imposible for God to do some thing?​

... is a wholly worthless argument because it can justify virtually anything. So, for example, why is it impossible for God to have simulated evolution in the fossil record past to challenge our faith?

 

[Rakhel]

Who says he's challenging our faith?

 

[Union]

The question from the gallery is If G-d can write the "ten Commandments" in stone, why is it impossible for him to write in third person on papyrus?

You see that Jewish scholars are not sure who wrote it , whether it was Joshua , Moses or whomsoever .

Again please read the above posts , from grammatical point of view it should not be GOD :

There are many 3rd person views on the Torah what makes no sense (with all respect). Lets just go further on what we are discussing here.
You are saying that God wrote about Moses(pbuh) in a 3rd person view but please pay close attention to the text lets start by verse 1:

1 Then Moses climbed Mount Nebo from the plains of Moab to the top of Pisgah, across from Jericho. There the LORD showed him the whole land--from Gilead to Dan,

-Lets say God spoke true Moses(pbuh) and makes Moses(pbuh) a 3rd person why would God address himself also as a 3rd person and not as I?

Then again in verse 4: Then the LORD said to him,

And Moses the servant of the LORD died (two 3rd person views here)

And in verse 9 we can clearly see that ''LORD had commanded Moses'' therefore not speaking or writing true him but commanding him.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

You see that Jewish scholars are not sure who wrote it , whether it was Joshua , Moses or whomsoever .

And you, on the other hand, are absolutely certain that the Qur'an is the literal word of Allah revealed to Muhammad by the Angel Gabriel and has been transmitted with zero error since that time. With all due respect, I am far more comfortable with the intellectual integrity of Jewish scholarship despite the attendant uncertainty.

 

[dantech]

You see that Jewish scholars are not sure who wrote it , whether it was Joshua , Moses or whomsoever .

Again please read the above posts , from grammatical point of view it should not be GOD :

I already answered this question, yet you say I am the one avoiding things...

There are multiple opinions about who physically wrote it. There are no confusions whatsoever about the fact that it was narrated by the Essence of God, which speaks(even about God Himself) in the third person.

 

[Rational_Mind]

And you, on the other hand, are absolutely certain that the Qur'an is the literal word of Allah revealed to Muhammad by the Angel Gabriel and has been transmitted with zero error since that time. With all due respect, I am far more comfortable with the intellectual integrity of Jewish scholarship despite the attendant uncertainty.

In all fairness there is a day and night contrast in preservation of the books of Torah and the Holy Quran.

-Mediums used for writing were more concrete.
-Slow revelation was memorized bit by bit as it slowly sped up.
-Was recited from beginning to end every Ramadan.
-Was recited in five daily prayers
-Was re revealed from beginning to end to verify.
-Original language is preserved. Was written down as revealed (latter compiled).
-Order was strictly directed, also recorded, and also in memory.
-Strict safeguards were recorded to have been taken.
-Quran itself contains verses directly saying it will be protected.

Can something similar be said for the books of Torah?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

-Mediums used for writing were more concrete.
-Slow revelation was memorized bit by bit as it slowly sped up.
-Was recited from beginning to end every Ramadan.
-Was recited in five daily prayers
-Was re revealed from beginning to end to verify.
-Original language is preserved. Was written down as revealed (latter compiled).
-Order was strictly directed, also recorded, and also in memory.
-Strict safeguards were recorded to have been taken.
-Quran itself contains verses directly saying it will be protected.

Can something similar be said for the books of Torah?

I understand that you believe this to be true. I personally do not share that belief.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Regarding the above, see:

• Wiki: History of the Quran
• Wiki: Textual Criticism; Quran
• Textual Criticism and Qur'an Manuscripts

I am perfectly willing to see both the Torah and the Qur'an subjected to the same unshackled and rigorous scholarship. In fact, I applaud such efforts.

 

[dantech]

In all fairness there is a day and night contrast in preservation of the books of Torah and the Holy Quran.

-Mediums used for writing were more concrete.

Actually, our Torah cannot be written from memory, cannot be copied from a book or computer, or anything else similar. Our Torah can only be copied from another existing, kosher, Torah. The person buying it needs to personally know the person writing. The buyer needs to know that the writer is a pious, religious, fair man who is a firm believer in God. A "perfectly written" Torah by an atheist is not kosher and needs to be destroyed (even the holy names, becomes they were not written with a holy intent.). So yeah, the mediums used for writing in the Quran are not as concrete as you may think, compared to the Torah.

-Slow revelation was memorized bit by bit as it slowly sped up.

When we do recite the Torah, memory is strictly forbidden! Memory is subject to error. Reading minimizes the chance for error.

Was recited from beginning to end every Ramadan.

Torah is recited from beginning to end every year as well. It is recited multiple times, every day.

-Was recited in five daily prayers

We have three daily prayers, it is recited in each as well.

-Was re revealed from beginning to end to verify.

Same for the Torah after the deportation by the Babylonians.

-Original language is preserved. Was written down as revealed (latter compiled).

Same

-Order was strictly directed, also recorded, and also in memory.

Same

-Strict safeguards were recorded to have been taken.

I guarantee your safeguards don't come close to those of Jewish law. The amount of laws we have dedicated strictly to the preservation of the Torah would blow your mind.

-Quran itself contains verses directly saying it will be protected.

Same, as well as verses saying that its laws are here for eternity. (since we both don't necessarily believe in each other's holy texts, this point should be ignored moving on.)

Can something similar be said for the books of Torah?

There are many Jewish laws destined just to protect the authenticity of the Torah. The lines in which the writing is must be perfectly straight and even. If even one letter is missing, or merely cracked or smudged, the whole Sefer Torah is not kosher, and is forbidden from being read. A printed Torah scroll, even if its letters conform to the required form, is not valid.
Because the Sefer Torah embodies the holiness of its message, it should focus exclusively on its pure text; any illustrations or artistic decorations are forbidden. These are just a few examples of many laws that are here specifically to protect its authenticity.
A Torah scroll that is considered non-kosher and non-repairable, therefore unusable, needs to be buried as soon as possible.

Look at it this way. There is a mountain of laws here to make sure that our Torah is kept authentic. Once an authentic Torah becomes too old and is no longer authentic, we bury it and make sure no one reads from it ever again. If this isn't the best way to safeguard a text, then I don't know what is.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Actually, our Torah cannot be written from memory, cannot be copied from a book or computer, or anything else similar.

And, for you ...

• Fixing God's Torah: The Accuracy of the Hebrew Bible Text in Jewish Law
• Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible

Belief in inerrant transmission is belief in a fantasy.

 

[dantech]

And, for you ...

• Fixing God's Torah: The Accuracy of the Hebrew Bible Text in Jewish Law
• Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible

Belief in inerrant transmission is belief in a fantasy.

Your first link doesn't work.