The Torah (Jews and Muslims)

[Jayhawker Soule]

Because of what it represents. It represents our bond with God. It represents what he wants from us. It is basically the contract we made with him as a people to promise that we will always be bound to him, and him to us. It is His duty and responsibility to make sure, through this bond, that his Holy law that he has given us to follow, forever and ever, is perfect and has not been tampered with. For this reason, if it is not perfect, then it is no longer holy. For this same reason, if we find a Torah today that is not perfect, we need to correct it if possible, and if not, bury it because the Torah should only be available to us in it's perfect and HOLY state.

Are you familiar with the Oven of Akhnai midrash? Do you see any relevancy?

 

[dantech]

Are you familiar with the Oven of Akhnai midrash? Do you see any relevancy?

I am familiar with this midrash. What I see relevant is that even if there does end up to be corruptions in the Torah, if the majority of them have this corruption (which I don't honestly see happening), then this majority becomes the truth. In this case, even if the Torah is corrupted as most of you say, it is still considered perfect by Jewish standards because of the law of the majority. But I personally believe that God would not permit it to get corrupted in the first place. And I think that odds are that the true version of the Torah will always stay major in comparison to the ones that have been corrupted.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

And I think that odds are that the true version of the Torah will always stay major in comparison to the ones that have been corrupted.

You have nothing to base this on other than faith. How can you speak of "true version" without reeling in circular argumentation? All we know for certain is that there were multiple variants; we do not know which was first. And if you honestly believe that the selection process was inerrant and devoid of politics you've clearly never had much experience with synagogues.

Even some of the translation/interpretation is wholly speculative. Again, what does YSRL mean? What about arami oved avi?

To be perfectly honest, I pity your visceral need for inerrancy, if only because such reliance will force you more and more to renounce the real history and culture of our people in favor of some safe yet baseless caricature.

 

[Union]

Deuteronomy 31

Public Reading of the Law

9 So Moses wrote down this law and gave it to the Levitical priests, who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and to all the elders of Israel. 10 Then Moses commanded them: “At the end of every seven years, in the year for canceling debts, during the Festival of Tabernacles, 11 when all Israel comes to appear before the Lord your God at the place he will choose, you shall read this law before them in their hearing. 12 Assemble the people—men, women and children, and the foreigners residing in your towns—so they can listen and learn to fear the Lord your God and follow carefully all the words of this law. 13 Their children, who do not know this law, must hear it and learn to fear the Lord your God as long as you live in the land you are crossing the Jordan to possess.”
Israel’s Rebellion Predicted

14 The Lord said to Moses, “Now the day of your death is near. Call Joshua and present yourselves at the tent of meeting, where I will commission him.” So Moses and Joshua came and presented themselves at the tent of meeting.
15 Then the Lord appeared at the tent in a pillar of cloud, and the cloud stood over the entrance to the tent. 16 And the Lord said to Moses: “You are going to rest with your ancestors, and these people will soon prostitute themselves to the foreign gods of the land they are entering. They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them. 17 And in that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed. Many disasters and calamities will come on them, and in that day they will ask, ‘Have not these disasters come on us because our God is not with us?’ 18 And I will certainly hide my face in that day because of all their wickedness in turning to other gods.
19 “Now write down this song and teach it to the Israelites and have them sing it, so that it may be a witness for me against them. 20 When I have brought them into the land flowing with milk and honey, the land I promised on oath to their ancestors, and when they eat their fill and thrive, they will turn to other gods and worship them, rejecting me and breaking my covenant. 21 And when many disasters and calamities come on them, this song will testify against them, because it will not be forgotten by their descendants. I know what they are disposed to do, even before I bring them into the land I promised them on oath.” 22 So Moses wrote down this song that day and taught it to the Israelites.
23 The Lord gave this command to Joshua son of Nun: “Be strong and courageous, for you will bring the Israelites into the land I promised them on oath, and I myself will be with you.”
24 After Moses finished writing in a book the words of this law from beginning to end, 25 he gave this command to the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord: 26 “Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God. There it will remain as a witness against you. 27 For I know how rebellious and stiff-necked you are. If you have been rebellious against the Lord while I am still alive and with you, how much more will you rebel after I die! 28 Assemble before me all the elders of your tribes and all your officials, so that I can speak these words in their hearing and call the heavens and the earth to testify against them. 29 For I know that after my death you are sure to become utterly corrupt and to turn from the way I have commanded you. In days to come, disaster will fall on you because you will do evil in the sight of the Lord and arouse his anger by what your hands have made.”


Big Question : where is the book of laws(Torah) that Moses left ?
Small Question : why GOD and Moses predicted the Jews wouldn't follow this Torah of Moses and follow their own way ?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Big Question : where is the book of laws(Torah) that Moses left ?

 

[dantech]

You have nothing to base this on other than faith. How can you speak of "true version" without reeling in circular argumentation? All we know for certain is that there were multiple variants; we do not know which was first.

No... What we do know is that anytime there has been found two Torahs that had differences, they would take out a number of others and correct the verses according to the majority... It doesn't matter when and where... It is purely logical to assume that if you have one first original text, and a million people copy the same text, many of them will make errors. However, if you analyze each and everyone of these million copies and make the comparison between each one, you will undoubtedly notice and see clearly that they didn't all make mistakes in the same places. And wherever you do see mistakes, you will notice that most of the others don't have that mistake. It's not as complicated or unlikely as you make it seem.

And if you honestly believe that the selection process was inerrant and devoid of politics you've clearly never had much experience with synagogues.

The only political concept included here is democracy, in the sense that the majority would win the vote of which is right and which is wrong. I have spent way more time in a synagogue than you could probably imagine.

Even some of the translation/interpretation is wholly speculative. Again, what does YSRL mean? What about arami oved avi?

Translation/interpretation has nothing to do with the actual original text of the Torah and its authenticity.

To be perfectly honest, I pity your visceral need for inerrancy, if only because such reliance will force you more and more to renounce the real history and culture of our people in favor of some safe yet baseless caricature.

Who defines real history? Is it anyone with a PHD who writes a book?
NO history is real unless someone was here to experience it, and is still here to tell you the truth using solid evidence. Theories of what happened, although they may seem as logical and true as 1+1=2, are still just theories.
Which theories you chose the believe may be completely different from mine, and that doesn't make you right or wrong. It only makes you wrong in my opinion, and vice-versa. Stop thinking that because you read a book written by Tov, who may or may not have a PHD, about the DSS that you are definitely right and cannot be wrong. I choose to think you are the one renouncing the REAL history and culture of our people in favor of some safe yet baseless caricature...

Anyways, I think this has gone way too far... I will just quit before this goes even further for no reason... We have been arguing in a circle and are getting no where...

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

No... What we do know is that anytime there has been found two Torahs that had differences, they would take out a number of others and correct the verses according to the majority...

No, we don't know that this happened "any time." In fact, we know just the opposite, which is preciesely why there existed a pluriformity of texts at qumran.

And, even if this did, in fact, happen "every time," it is absurd to believe that (a) truth is determined by majority rule, or that (b) the people voting were inerrant.

Who defines real history? Is it anyone with a PHD who writes a book?

Visit the Israel Museum in Jerusalem.

 

[F0uad]

To truly understand this, you would need to study Kabalah. There is a notion we have of Sephirot which is very difficult to understand. In a way, Sephirot splits God into categories, but all while staying one God.

In this case, it is the Essence of God that is narrating the Torah. Although it is the same being, it is just like having multiple personalities, in a way.
God has many names which each describes some of his qualities. The names used in the Torah are here to describe his relationship with us. But there is a higher level, which we have knowledge of yet can't describe, that is considered the Essence of holiness. This is where the Torah comes from, and this is why it is written in the third person

So what your really is saying that you belief in something that is similar to the Trinitarian belief that god is in a way divided. Its funny how you can accuse the Christians of making up a ''unity'' or a god-concept that doesn't make sense yet do the same.

Could you please quote me several verses from the ''alleged'' Torah that defines God as two or having a different essence? Could you also define this Essence to me. It just look to me that your using a different ''Trinity'' what seems blasphemous according to Jewish tradition that i know off. If this is really what the Jewish religion teaches we can scrap it of the Monotheistic religion list.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Could you please quote me several verses from the ''alleged'' Torah ...

Your ugly and condescending disrespect does a real disservice to Islam and the many people here who do such a fine job representing it. It's a real shame.

 

[F0uad]

Your ugly and condescending disrespect does a real disservice to Islam and the many people here who do such a fine job representing it. It's a real shame.

Wooooo....w what why do i deserve this? Well sorry if you wanted to know what Muslims think about the Torah... You had this entire debate yet you do not know that Muslims belief that the Torah you hold is corrupted?

 

[Caladan]

I don't believe you've answered my post dantech:

The Torah is part of the Jewish scriptures (and Christian scripture). Not Islamic scripture, so the question is a bit out of context.
Many Muslims are quick to say how the Hebrew scriptures (and New Testament) were changed, but they don't have much familiarity with these scriptures to begin with.
Why would you ask people who are not familiar with your scriptures to validate them?

So I ask again. How can you ask people who have no in depth knowledge of your scripture, the Hebrew Bible to validate it?

 

[Union]

I don't believe you've answered my post dantech:

So I ask again. How can you ask people who have no in depth knowledge of your scripture, the Hebrew Bible to validate it?

Can't he just ask ?

 

[Caladan]

Can't he just ask ?

Of course he can ask. But it's like asking someone who never read Hemingway to give a book report of The Old Man and the Sea.

 

[Union]

Of course he can ask. But it's like asking someone who never read Hemingway to give a book report of The Old Man and the Sea.

How do you know Muslims don't know about Torah , not at all ? Isn't it a bit 'certain' speculation ?

 

[Caladan]

How do you know Muslims don't know about Torah , not at all ? Isn't it a bit 'certain' speculation ?

It is a certain and an educated speculation. None of the Muslims I've ever discussed or debated had any in depth knowledge or even superficial knowledge of the Bible. I believe it's dishonest to say that average Muslims have any significant knowledge of the Hebrew Bible or the New Testament.

 

[TheKnight]

I disagree, I think and truly believe that Judaism is 100% based on the Torah being God's word.

If it is humanly, then what good is it for us to not eat pork? Why can't we light fire on the Sabbath? I don't mean I do these things because I feel I have too... I actually do these things because I believe a perfect, all-knowing, ever-living, all-powerful being gave me these laws, gave me this text and simply wants to me to follow it.
I don't always know why... things don't always make sense, but I think of myself as a child who can't always understand why an adult would want me to do a certain thing. Just like any good child, I want to please my parents and accomplish anything they ask of me because I love them unconditionally and want to please them no matter what. Same thing with God. He gave me a text which contains laws. If this HOLY text is not perfect, then it is NOT holy. Why would I not eat a (very tasty looking) lobster if the one asking me not too, is at the same level as me and should have no knowledge, experience, authority over me.

I also believe that there is a significant value in it being based in the divine. However that is not it's only value. It is valuable as a code of behavior that seeks to distinguish and guide a group of people towards similar personal and social goals.
I don't believe that something can have divine value if divinity is its only value.

Unfortunately, we do not live in a world where divinity is so objective and corporeal as to be able to point to it with any sort of certainty and say "that thing is divine." With that I mind, I think it is important that while someone is pursuing the divine in their study of Torah they also come to value it for those aspects of it that are seemingly not divine. That is, beyond it's divine mandate, it is also a wonderful work of literature, an insight into the mindset of the people who authored it, a way to come to a better understanding of humanity itself, and a great reflective tool. That I believe it is of divine origin is only one added bonus.

Suppose one were irreligious and entirely Atheistic. Such a person would inevitable at some point come to consider his/her behavior and why he/she behaved that way. Perhaps even with the intention of modifying his/her behavior. From what does this person have to draw? Rational conclusions based on his observations and the previously reached rational conclusions of those who came before him. In examining history and the many mythologies and stories which led groups of people to structure their behavior a certain way, the Torah, even if taken entirely as mythology, is a fascinating body of law. Moreover, even if all its stories were just the myths of a tribal people, it fascinates the mind to consider why it is a people would spread such stories among themselves. Why they would come up with those stories? What messages they were trying to convey with them, etc? That same atheistic person would eventually be making choices somewhere between reason and preference. Arguably, the Torah consists of a rather preferable lifestyle despite the various instructions that would be difficult or even painful. Not only that, but a great many of the instructions contained therein (particularly when interpreted in light of the oral tradition which accompanies it) are even somewhat reasonable.

I guess my point is, despite perceived flaws and how one reacts to them, I see Judaism as contained within the Torah and the tradition of the Jews as being extremely valuable even if there is no divine piece to it. Don't get me wrong, that performance of the mitzvot is what binds a Jew to the Divine is something I also hold near and dear to me, but it is not the only reward I find in the mitzvot. If I were to suddenly discover that the Torah is entirely myth, I can't say that I my perspective on how I should behave given its laws would change all that drastically.

 

[Union]

It is a certain and an educated speculation. None of the Muslims I've ever discussed or debated had any in depth knowledge or even superficial knowledge of the Bible. I believe it's dishonest to say that average Muslims have any significant knowledge of the Hebrew Bible or the New Testament.

That is just your personal opinion . Nothing to do with reality . Okay , lets prove it here . Please visit my couple of previous posts and respond to them . So far no one responded them to the point . Though I didn't post them to debate rather for clarification , lets go for them . Let us begin with this :

Deuteronomy 31

Public Reading of the Law

9 So Moses wrote down this law and gave it to the Levitical priests, who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and to all the elders of Israel. 10 Then Moses commanded them: “At the end of every seven years, in the year for canceling debts, during the Festival of Tabernacles, 11 when all Israel comes to appear before the Lord your God at the place he will choose, you shall read this law before them in their hearing. 12 Assemble the people—men, women and children, and the foreigners residing in your towns—so they can listen and learn to fear the Lord your God and follow carefully all the words of this law. 13 Their children, who do not know this law, must hear it and learn to fear the Lord your God as long as you live in the land you are crossing the Jordan to possess.”
Israel’s Rebellion Predicted

14 The Lord said to Moses, “Now the day of your death is near. Call Joshua and present yourselves at the tent of meeting, where I will commission him.” So Moses and Joshua came and presented themselves at the tent of meeting.
15 Then the Lord appeared at the tent in a pillar of cloud, and the cloud stood over the entrance to the tent. 16 And the Lord said to Moses: “You are going to rest with your ancestors, and these people will soon prostitute themselves to the foreign gods of the land they are entering. They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them. 17 And in that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed. Many disasters and calamities will come on them, and in that day they will ask, ‘Have not these disasters come on us because our God is not with us?’ 18 And I will certainly hide my face in that day because of all their wickedness in turning to other gods.
19 “Now write down this song and teach it to the Israelites and have them sing it, so that it may be a witness for me against them. 20 When I have brought them into the land flowing with milk and honey, the land I promised on oath to their ancestors, and when they eat their fill and thrive, they will turn to other gods and worship them, rejecting me and breaking my covenant. 21 And when many disasters and calamities come on them, this song will testify against them, because it will not be forgotten by their descendants. I know what they are disposed to do, even before I bring them into the land I promised them on oath.” 22 So Moses wrote down this song that day and taught it to the Israelites.
23 The Lord gave this command to Joshua son of Nun: “Be strong and courageous, for you will bring the Israelites into the land I promised them on oath, and I myself will be with you.”
24 After Moses finished writing in a book the words of this law from beginning to end, 25 he gave this command to the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord: 26 “Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God. There it will remain as a witness against you. 27 For I know how rebellious and stiff-necked you are. If you have been rebellious against the Lord while I am still alive and with you, how much more will you rebel after I die! 28 Assemble before me all the elders of your tribes and all your officials, so that I can speak these words in their hearing and call the heavens and the earth to testify against them. 29 For I know that after my death you are sure to become utterly corrupt and to turn from the way I have commanded you. In days to come, disaster will fall on you because you will do evil in the sight of the Lord and arouse his anger by what your hands have made.”


Big Question : where is the book of laws(Torah) that Moses left ?
Small Question : why GOD and Moses predicted the Jews wouldn't follow this Torah of Moses and follow their own way ?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

That is just your personal opinion . Nothing to do with reality . Okay , lets prove it here . Please visit my couple of previous posts and respond to them . So far no one responded them to the point

Because they're little more than petty taunts.

 

[Caladan]

That is just your personal opinion . Nothing to do with reality .

Hardly my opinion, and pretty much reality as it is. I want to see any Muslim member here tell me with a straight face that they were taught the Hebrew Bible or the New Testament in Islamic schools, or even secular schools in Islamic countries (assuming such exist). The only references we ever get from Muslims about Pre-Quranic Abrahamic scriptures are quick google mining of selective verses from Muslim websites.

Okay , lets prove it here . Please visit my couple of previous posts and respond to them . So far no one responded them to the point . Though I didn't post them to debate rather for clarification , lets go for them . Let us begin with this :

I think you are a bit confused, what are you trying to debate here?

 

[Union]

Hardly my opinion, and pretty much reality as it is. I want to see any Muslim member here tell me with a straight face that they were taught the Hebrew Bible or the New Testament in Islamic schools, or even secular schools in Islamic countries (assuming such exist). The only references we ever get from Muslims about Pre-Quranic Abrahamic scriptures are quick google mining of selective verses from Muslim websites.


I think you are a bit confused, what are you trying to debate here?

I had two questions , answer them .Time is not in my side , I won't talk unnecessarily...