The Torah (Jews and Muslims)

[Jayhawker Soule]

Your first link doesn't work.

Fixed. Thanks.

 

[dantech]

I'm sorry, but giving me links to two books is not really helpful. I have about 12 books to read presently in queue and only finish reading one every few months because I have been extremely busy lately.

Anything specific you would like to point out?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I'm sorry, but giving me links to two books is not really helpful.

Sorry.

 

[Rational_Mind]

Actually, our Torah cannot be written from memory, cannot be copied from a book or computer, or anything else similar. Our Torah can only be copied from another existing, kosher, Torah. The person buying it needs to personally know the person writing. The buyer needs to know that the writer is a pious, religious, fair man who is a firm believer in God. A "perfectly written" Torah by an atheist is not kosher and needs to be destroyed (even the holy names, becomes they were not written with a holy intent.). So yeah, the mediums used for writing in the Quran are not as concrete as you may think, compared to the Torah.

Quran was not written from memory so there is not much to say. Are printing presses Kosher? This is quite illogical. Who judges if your are Kosher to copy a book of Torah.

When we do recite the Torah, memory is strictly forbidden! Memory is subject to error. Reading minimizes the chance for error.

You just unknowingly weakened your argument while strengthening mine. I advise you to spend some time researching.

Torah is recited from beginning to end every year as well. It is recited multiple times, every day.

This practice is not found recorded in history. My focus is preservation that Quran had when it was revealed that it was memorized and written down at the same time. Can you show evidence of this practice in preservation of the Torah?

We have three daily prayers, it is recited in each as well.

Same for the Torah after the deportation by the Babylonians.


Same

Same

History and factual information disagrees.

I guarantee your safeguards don't come close to those of Jewish law. The amount of laws we have dedicated strictly to the preservation of the Torah would blow your mind.

Same, as well as verses saying that its laws are here for eternity. (since we both don't necessarily believe in each other's holy texts, this point should be ignored moving on.)

The Quran explicitly say it will be protected. Not just laws.

There are many Jewish laws destined just to protect the authenticity of the Torah. The lines in which the writing is must be perfectly straight and even. If even one letter is missing, or merely cracked or smudged, the whole Sefer Torah is not kosher, and is forbidden from being read. A printed Torah scroll, even if its letters conform to the required form, is not valid.
Because the Sefer Torah embodies the holiness of its message, it should focus exclusively on its pure text; any illustrations or artistic decorations are forbidden. These are just a few examples of many laws that are here specifically to protect its authenticity.
A Torah scroll that is considered non-kosher and non-repairable, therefore unusable, needs to be buried as soon as possible.

Look at it this way. There is a mountain of laws here to make sure that our Torah is kept authentic. Once an authentic Torah becomes too old and is no longer authentic, we bury it and make sure no one reads from it ever again. If this isn't the best way to safeguard a text, then I don't know what is.

Questioning whether your in denial or have not done sufficient research. History disagrees, how do you expect non-Jewish people to accept what you say when we have contrary evidence? This is not the same case as the Holy Quran.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Quran was not written from memory so there is not much to say.

So you believe.

 

[Rational_Mind]

So you believe.

So it is accepted by historians. Its not my belief that I presented. For it is useless to convince other with my belief when they don't share it.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

So it is accepted by historians.

So you believe.

 

[Rational_Mind]

So you believe.

So you believe. Circular.

 

[Union]

Come on guys , the thread is about Torah , why derailing the issue . If you want burn the Qur'an , I want to mean criticize the Qur'an , please open any another thread .

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Come on guys , the thread is about Torah , why derailing the issue . If you want burn the Qur'an , I want to mean criticize the Qur'an , please open any another thread .

That was a disgusting insinuation. I don't know about the rest of you folks, but I have zero interest in having a discussion with someone who stoops to such a level.

 

[SageTree]

This isn't Staff action... this is just me saying....

To be clear here, This was addressed to Muslims for discussion.
So technically this "Same Faith" debate is between Muslims and Muslims only.

That is what the Purple colour in the Forum implies.

What is Islam's take on the Torah?

from the OP is pretty clear.

Act accordingly.

 

[Union]

And you, on the other hand, are absolutely certain that the Qur'an is the literal word of Allah revealed to Muhammad by the Angel Gabriel and has been transmitted with zero error since that time. With all due respect, I am far more comfortable with the intellectual integrity of Jewish scholarship despite the attendant uncertainty.

Don't be emotional bro , lets tackle the pro and con of Torah here . The OP has created the thread for this purpose only . For our scripture let me express my view somewhere else .

 

[dantech]

This isn't Staff action... this is just me saying....

To be clear here, This was addressed to Muslims for discussion.
So technically this "Same Faith" debate is between Muslims and Muslims only.

That is what the Purple colour in the Forum implies.

from the OP is pretty clear.

Act accordingly.

Could you please change it to Jews and Muslims? I am the OP and I meant it for Jews as well. Muslims can't debate with themselves. They agree on the subject.

 

[Union]

I already answered this question, yet you say I am the one avoiding things...

There are multiple opinions about who physically wrote it. There are no confusions whatsoever about the fact that it was narrated by the Essence of God, which speaks(even about God Himself) in the third person.

Thats what exactly we are saying ....Case dismiss.

 

[dantech]

Quran was not written from memory so there is not much to say. Are printing presses Kosher? This is quite illogical. Who judges if your are Kosher to copy a book of Torah.

This is precisely why I said you must know the person. Buying a holy scroll should not be taken lightly. So knowing the person who wrote it for you, and making sure this person wrote it with holy intent, is very important

You just unknowingly weakened your argument while strengthening mine. I advise you to spend some time researching.

How about I answer the exact same thing to everything you say... Can't lose an argument that way now can we?
How about you explain what you mean....

This practice is not found recorded in history. My focus is preservation that Quran had when it was revealed that it was memorized and written down at the same time. Can you show evidence of this practice in preservation of the Torah?

The Quran could not be memorized and written down in the same time because the person it was revealed to was illiterate. He had to memorize it, and then transmit it to someone who could write.

History and factual information disagrees.

I am not sure what history and factual information you are learning from...
1)We do have three daily prayers, and pieces of our Torah is read during each prayer.

2)After the exile of the Babylonians, we had lost the original Torah of Moses.

"Three books were found in the Temple courtyard - the maon book, the za'atutei book, and the hi book... so they retained the majority reading of the two and abandoned the minority of one.
In each of the three Torahs that were found, there was a unique textual variant and the sages followed the majority. In other words, when Ezra returned to Jerusalem to rebuild the Temple, he was able to find three reliable scrolls with minor differences. The differences were as follows. In one, the word נערי was written in its Aramaic translation זאטוטי. In another, the word מעונה was written מעון without the final ה. And in the third, the word היא was written as הוא (but vocalized as 'היא'). Other than these, the texts matched exactly which, frankly, is outstanding for texts produced by human hands."

After this, Ezra, who I believe Islam trusts as a prophet as well, had a revelation from God:

Then when the forty days were completed, the Most High said to me, “Make public the ones you wrote first so that the worthy and unworthy may read them." - (4 Ezra 14:44)

3)Original language is preserved as well... Alphabet has evolved, but same language...

4)Order was also recorded for us, since Ezra found three Torahs that were virtually identical. Needless to say the order was, indeed, identical. The order is separated in the form of Parashiot and Pesoukim.

The Quran explicitly say it will be protected. Not just laws.

But I don't believe in the Quran, you can't use this as an argument. That's like saying the Torah says not to light fire on the seventh day of the week, but you do...

Questioning whether your in denial or have not done sufficient research. History disagrees, how do you expect non-Jewish people to accept what you say when we have contrary evidence? This is not the same case as the Holy Quran.

I am thinking you are the one in denial. You realize your Quran also acknowledges the Torah as holy text given to Moses don't you? Yet, going back to an earlier argument we had, I think it was Fouad(and you agreed with) that said that Moses could not have written it since it was at the third person. Yet, in your Quran, which you believe is the truth, it says it was revealed to Moses in Qur'an 6:91, 17:2, 7: 154. Now I could understand if you believe this text has been tampered with. But another one of your prophets (Ezra) later revealed that the Torah he had recompiled is the right one. Then, another one of your prophets, Jesus, said the same thing. And since then, we have no reason to believe the Torah could not have been preserved since all our laws of keeping our Torahs kosher come from before then. I could understand from Moses to Ezra, but Ezra confirmed its authenticity.

 

[dantech]

Thats what exactly we are saying ....Case dismiss.

We have different opinions on the matter. You, being a Muslim, don't according to the Quran.

 

[Caladan]

What is Islam's and Judaism's take on the Torah?
Where do they think it came from? And is it considered, genuinely, the word of God?

The Torah is part of the Jewish scriptures (and Christian scripture). Not Islamic scripture, so the question is a bit out of context.
Many Muslims are quick to say how the Hebrew scriptures (and New Testament) were changed, but they don't have much familiarity with these scriptures to begin with.
Why would you ask people who are not familiar with your scriptures to validate them?

 

[Rational_Mind]

This is precisely why I said you must know the person. Buying a holy scroll should not be taken lightly. So knowing the person who wrote it for you, and making sure this person wrote it with holy intent, is very important

So electronic or printed Torah's should not be take as authentic?

How about I answer the exact same thing to everything you say... Can't lose an argument that way now can we?
How about you explain what you mean....

When we do recite the Torah, memory is strictly forbidden! Memory is subject to error. Reading minimizes the chance for error.

How does this make any sense. Torah is known to have been orally recorded from memory in the style of Hadith.

The Quran could not be memorized and written down in the same time because the person it was revealed to was illiterate. He had to memorize it, and then transmit it to someone who could write.

Are you assuming revelation does not happen when in accompany of someone. The Holy Prophet (saw) had a scribe. And it was rerevealed to ensure correctness. And the strictness taken in preserving the Quran from the beginning is historically accepted as having higher standards then known and recorded for the Bibles.

I am not sure what history and factual information you are learning from...
1)We do have three daily prayers, and pieces of our Torah is read during each prayer.

Sorry was not referring to this. Apologize for any confusion.

2)After the exile of the Babylonians, we had lost the original Torah of Moses.

"Three books were found in the Temple courtyard - the maon book, the za'atutei book, and the hi book... so they retained the majority reading of the two and abandoned the minority of one.
In each of the three Torahs that were found, there was a unique textual variant and the sages followed the majority. In other words, when Ezra returned to Jerusalem to rebuild the Temple, he was able to find three reliable scrolls with minor differences. The differences were as follows. In one, the word נערי was written in its Aramaic translation זאטוטי. In another, the word מעונה was written מעון without the final ה. And in the third, the word היא was written as הוא (but vocalized as 'היא'). Other than these, the texts matched exactly which, frankly, is outstanding for texts produced by human hands."

After this, Ezra, who I believe Islam trusts as a prophet as well, had a revelation from God:

Agreed. Explain the variations among Torah we have today.

3)Original language is preserved as well... Alphabet has evolved, but same language...

Which language do you believe to be original. And is this your opinion or accepted fact.

4)Order was also recorded for us, since Ezra found three Torahs that were virtually identical. Needless to say the order was, indeed, identical. The order is separated in the form of Parashiot and Pesoukim.

Okay.

But I don't believe in the Quran, you can't use this as an argument. That's like saying the Torah says not to light fire on the seventh day of the week, but you do...

The argument is God never stated in the Torah that it would be preserved forever as it was never mean't to be just like prior books that have passed before it.

I am thinking you are the one in denial. You realize your Quran also acknowledges the Torah as holy text given to Moses don't you? Yet, going back to an earlier argument we had, I think it was Fouad(and you agreed with) that said that Moses could not have written it since it was at the third person. Yet, in your Quran, which you believe is the truth, it says it was revealed to Moses in Qur'an 6:91, 17:2, 7: 154. Now I could understand if you believe this text has been tampered with. But another one of your prophets (Ezra) later revealed that the Torah he had recompiled is the right one. Then, another one of your prophets, Jesus, said the same thing. And since then, we have no reason to believe the Torah could not have been preserved since all our laws of keeping our Torahs kosher come from before then. I could understand from Moses to Ezra, but Ezra confirmed its authenticity.

That is correct but we still end up today with one collection of Torah in its original language with zero disagreement?

 

[dantech]

So electronic or printed Torah's should not be take as authentic?

definitely not. It's more than just printed text. The scribe needs to dip in a mikvah (purification pool) before writing. He needs to recite a special prayer before each time he writes down God's name, etc...

How does this make any sense. Torah is known to have been orally recorded from memory in the style of Hadith.

You are allowed to learn it by heart. You are just not allowed to recite/write it by heart.

Are you assuming revelation does not happen when in accompany of someone. The Holy Prophet (saw) had a scribe. And it was rerevealed to ensure correctness.

I was assuming revelation does not happen in accompany of someone. Forget this then.

And the strictness taken in preserving the Quran from the beginning is historically accepted as having higher standards then known and recorded for the Bibles.

You keep saying this, but I am not so sure since you don't back it up... What is even more annoying, is that you said earlier, this is not a thread about the Quran, it is about the Torah. If you would like to start comparing the two, then please, start a new thread in which we can.

Sorry was not referring to this. Apologize for any confusion.

No problem, apology accepted

Agreed. Explain the variations among Torah we have today.

"Because of the level of care, precision, and re-examination of the Torah text used every time it is copied or even read, there is every indication that the text we have today remains remarkably true to the original. This is further demonstrated when we look at the existing variations in different Jewish communities.

During hundreds of years, the Jewish communities of Europe interacted very rarely with those in Northern Africa and the Middle East. Yemenite Jews have been separated and distinct for at least 1500 years, with their own custom prayer books and traditions. However, in all of these communities, less than 15 variations in each of these Torah texts.

What qualifies as a variation are simply spaces between words. in English, an example would be “well being” in one, while “wellbeing” in another. Other changes are letters used merely as pronunciation guides. The Ashkenazi community writes one word in Deuteronomy ending with a letter “aleph,” while the Sephardic community ends it with a “hey.” But both letters are silent at the end of a word, so both pronounce the word the same way."

Which language do you believe to be original. And is this your opinion or accepted fact.

We Jews don't call it Hebrew but it is very similar. We call it Lashon HaKodesh (Holy Language). The majority of the words have the same root as they wood in Hebrew, but there are some differences between the two. I think scientists call it Ancient Hebrew. This is not opinion, it is fact. I am not so sure what you would call this language, but I know for sure which language it is.

The argument is God never stated in the Torah that it would be preserved forever as it was never mean't to be just like prior books that have passed before it.

I know for sure about it stating that the laws are forever. The Torah itself, I would need to look into it and let you know because I obviously don't know the whole Torah by heart. Quick question though, You believe as a Muslim that the Psalms of David are a holy revelation, do you not? In the Psalms it does indeed say that we are to protect the Torah forever.

That is correct but we still end up today with one collection of Torah in its original language with zero disagreement?

Except for translations, a few spaces and silent letters that vary, then yes.
There are also some sects that have chosen to edit it so that it matches their individual history, these Torahs are not seen as Kosher to the Chief Rabbinate of Israel (an authority recognized by law as the supreme halakhic and spiritual authority for the Jewish people).

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

..., these Torahs are not seen as Kosher to the Chief Rabbinate of Israel (an authority recognized by law as the supreme halakhic and spiritual authority for the Jewish people).

You no doubt intended to say "recognized by Israeli law governing the Jewish people in Israel." From Wikipedia ...

The Chief Rabbinate of Israel (הרבנות הראשית לישרא&#1500 is recognized by law as the supreme halakhic and spiritual authority for the Jewish people in Israel.

< -- snip -- >​

Many objections have been raised by secular Israelis, and Jews from non-orthodox streams of Judaism regarding the Chief Rabbinate's strict control over Jewish weddings, divorce proceedings, conversions, and who counts as Jewish for the purposes of immigration. Rabbi Dr. Donniel Hartman of Jerusalem, President of the Shalom Hartman Institute, has argued that the State of Israel needs multiple rabbinates "that reflect the diversity of ideology permeating Israeli religious life. As the home of all Jews, the State of Israel does not have the right to determine authentic Judaism, but must reflect the diverse Jewishness of that population."

The Rabbinate does not accept non-Orthodox converts or Rabbis to take part in any of the above listed ceremonies or proceedings. Because of this, many Israelis choose to marry abroad in nearby Cyprus or another location. About 47,000 Israelis, or 12 percent of those who married between 2000 and 2005, secured their union abroad, according to Israel’s Central Bureau of Statistics. The Masorti (Conservative) Movement in Israel reported that in recent years about 20 percent are opting out annually.

Which manuscript is designated kosher by Israels Chief Rabbinate is entirely worthless in any scholarly discussion of biblical transmission. That there is a "pluriformity" (Emanuel Tov) of textual variants is common knowledge. All talk to the contrary is simply an appeal to the No True Scotsman fallacy.