The Torah (Jews and Muslims)

[dantech]

What is Islam's and Judaism's take on the Torah?
Where do they think it came from? And is it considered, genuinely, the word of God?

 

[Peace]

Hello dantech,

Muslims believe the Torah is the book of God revealed to Prophet Moses peace be upon him. However we believe that Torah that exists today is not the same as the original one that was revealed to Prophet Moses pbuh.

 

[Union]

I found it very interesting on the death of Moses :


Deuteronomy 34:5-10
5 And Moses the servant of the Lord died there in Moab, as the Lord had said. 6 He buried him[a] in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is. 7 Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died, yet his eyes were not weak nor his strength gone. 8 The Israelites grieved for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days, until the time of weeping and mourning was over.

This must not be written by Moses .

 

[FearGod]

I found it very interesting on the death of Moses :


Deuteronomy 34:5-10
5 And Moses the servant of the Lord died there in Moab, as the Lord had said. 6 He buried him[a] in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is. 7 Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died, yet his eyes were not weak nor his strength gone. 8 The Israelites grieved for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days, until the time of weeping and mourning was over.

This must not be written by Moses .

Good point.

 

[dantech]

I found it very interesting on the death of Moses :


Deuteronomy 34:5-10
5 And Moses the servant of the Lord died there in Moab, as the Lord had said. 6 He buried him[a] in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is. 7 Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died, yet his eyes were not weak nor his strength gone. 8 The Israelites grieved for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days, until the time of weeping and mourning was over.

This must not be written by Moses .

There are many Midrashim about this. One says that this part was written by Joshua. There is also one that says that God wrote this himself.
I have even read one where they say that Moses didn't write any of the Torah, literally... He was just there while God made his revelation to him, and listened and watched as the Torah was being written by a holy fire(by God). There are also those who believe that Moses was at such a high level, that he already knew how and when he was going to die, and that it was no big deal for him to write about his own death.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

We should acknowledge that many, many Jews - including many, many outstanding Jewish scholars - see the Torah as a remarkable, sometimes disturbing, and often brilliant and beautiful inspired human effort.

 

[Caladan]

There are many Midrashim about this. One says that this part was written by Joshua. There is also one that says that God wrote this himself.
I have even read one where they say that Moses didn't write any of the Torah, literally... He was just there while God made his revelation to him, and listened and watched as the Torah was being written by a holy fire(by God). There are also those who believe that Moses was at such a high level, that he already knew how and when he was going to die, and that it was no big deal for him to write about his own death.

You would believe all these possibilities, how about the possibility that the Hebrew scriptures are simply the product of experienced scribes?
Why does it have to be 100% metaphysical? does it give the scripture prestige?

I'm not testing your faith, I'm just wondering if you ever considered the possibility that world scriptures are not a supernatural product. Is it an all or nothing kind of deal?

 

[dantech]

You would believe all these possibilities, how about the possibility that the Hebrew scriptures are simply the product of experienced scribes?
Why does it have to be 100% metaphysical? does it give the scripture prestige?

I'm not testing your faith, I'm just wondering if you ever considered the possibility that world scriptures are not a supernatural product. Is it an all or nothing kind of deal?

To me, there are to many secrets and codes hidden in the Torah for it to be a human creation. And to me, if the Torah is found to not actually be divine, then my whole belief in Judaism no longer makes any sense and can be ignored from then on.

 

[F0uad]

Islam teaches that revelations such as the Torah, Zabur(Psalms) and the Injeel(gospel) was directly given to the Messengers such as: Moses, David and Jesus (peace be upon them) and not true other prophets or inspired people. Therefore the definition what he have of the Torah, Zabur and Injeel aren't exactly the same as how Jews and Christians view them.

For us only a direct revelation from God is authentic other "inspired'' works or written documents by certain people are not. Thats why the Quran makes the claim that the ''Direct'' revelation (Torah/Sharia) to Moses(pbuh) is lost in a way.

 

[F0uad]

There are many Midrashim about this. One says that this part was written by Joshua. There is also one that says that God wrote this himself.
I have even read one where they say that Moses didn't write any of the Torah, literally... He was just there while God made his revelation to him, and listened and watched as the Torah was being written by a holy fire(by God). There are also those who believe that Moses was at such a high level, that he already knew how and when he was going to die, and that it was no big deal for him to write about his own death.

I don't want this to turn into a debate but even if he knew he would die, he wouldn't talk in a 3rd person view about himself would he now?. As for Joshua writing it doesn't the Torah by definition mean a revelation to Moses and not Joshua? (peace be upon them).

 

[Union]

To me, there are to many secrets and codes hidden in the Torah for it to be a human creation. And to me, if the Torah is found to not actually be divine, then my whole belief in Judaism no longer makes any sense and can be ignored from then on.

Dear Dantech , you should judge everything through logic,reason and rationality , you should not force yourself to believe something that you need to believe as a Jew , only because the sake of your faith and belief . Give yourself the glory of an intelligent human before a pious jew . Same applies to Muslims as well .

 

[dantech]

Dear Dantech , you should judge everything through logic,reason and rationality , you should not force yourself to believe something that you need to believe as a Jew , only because the sake of your faith and belief . Give yourself the glory of an intelligent human before a pious jew . Same applies to Muslims as well .

Isn't that precisely what I'm doing? I basically said that if someone ever proves to me that the Torah is not divine, that I would no longer be Jewish... I am not forcing my self to do anything. I was saying that so many things written in the Torah are so perfect and cannot be written by humans, therefore it must be Divine.

And for the question about Moses writing in the third person... He was not writing what he thought, he was writing what God was telling him, word for word. If he had written it through his own point of view or interpretation, it would no longer be divine...

 

[Ken Brown]

I found it very interesting on the death of Moses :


Deuteronomy 34:5-10
5 And Moses the servant of the Lord died there in Moab, as the Lord had said. 6 He buried him[a] in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is. 7 Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died, yet his eyes were not weak nor his strength gone. 8 The Israelites grieved for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days, until the time of weeping and mourning was over.

This must not be written by Moses .

Hi Union, what if Moses was shown in explicit detail the events that would transpire in the future, even his death, could he not write about them? KB

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Hi Union, what if Moses was shown in explicit detail the events that would transpire in the future, even his death, could he not write about them? KB

This is an Islam DIR and should be respected as such.

 

[Rational_Mind]

Isn't that precisely what I'm doing? I basically said that if someone ever proves to me that the Torah is not divine, that I would no longer be Jewish... I am not forcing my self to do anything. I was saying that so many things written in the Torah are so perfect and cannot be written by humans, therefore it must be Divine.

And for the question about Moses writing in the third person... He was not writing what he thought, he was writing what God was telling him, word for word. If he had written it through his own point of view or interpretation, it would no longer be divine...

How does one trust that it is purely divine and was not lost in portions. If we look at the time period it was hard to preserve and writing mediums were not the ideal.

I believe that the Torah we find today contains revelations of Moses (as), such as those you find perfect, but it also contains other additions and commentary that was later added.

 

[dantech]

How does one trust that it is purely divine and was not lost in portions. If we look at the time period it was hard to preserve and writing mediums were not the ideal.

I believe that the Torah we find today contains revelations of Moses (as), such as those you find perfect, but it also contains other additions and commentary that was later added.

How do I believe portions were not lost or edited?
Simple... our Torah scrolls are so accurately copied from one to another, that if one single letter in the whole scroll is found to have a tiny bit of ink that has dissapeared, thus rendering the letter split into two, then the whole scroll is forbidden from being used. If there is a puncture on the scroll itself, that might be even between words, the scroll is rendered forbidden as well. A scribe has to copy it from another Torah, not from a book. If a column has 256 words, then he has to copy the exact same 256 words and cannot fit an extra one in there. Every column has to have the exact same layout. if you decide to look in many different Torah scrolls, you will find that any column is identical to any other. If the ninth line starts with a specific word, it will be the same exact thing in any other one of the Torahs you are inspecting. Scribes were not allowed to copy word for word, they had to copy letter for letter. These are just a few laws among many others. These aren't new laws, they are laws that have been here since we first started producing Torah Scrolls.

Now, it is obvious that thousands of these scrolls have been written. And some have been found to have errors. But these errors would very rarely be about meaning or even of a single word. In most cases, it would be a letter that wasn't copied right. Needless to say, these versions were put aside until corrections were made.

fence to the Scriptures (Massorah) because it locked all words and letters in their places... It records the number of times the several letters occur in the various books of the Bible; the number of words, and the middle word; the number of verses, and the middle verse; the number of expressions and combinations of words, etc... All this ...for the set purpose of safeguarding the Sacred Text, and preventing the loss or misplacement of a single letter or word" (Bullinger's Companion Bible).

commentary is not part of the Torah itself. These were added later by our Sages. They were not added inside the text, they were added beside it, or under it. It is very distinguishable. The Torah's text itself is untouchable.

 

[Union]

Hi Union, what if Moses was shown in explicit detail the events that would transpire in the future, even his death, could he not write about them? KB

Hello there . Firstly , if it was Moses who was writing about his own death , somehow , the third person in the sentence doesn't make sense , though different Midarshim resented by the Jews scholars to skip this difficulty , as Dantech also tried to uplift .

Secondly , the tense of the verse is past tense , hence the event happened before to the narration of the event .

Lastly , from the passage we see , '5 And Moses the servant of the Lord died there in Moab, as the Lord had said. 6 He buried him[a] in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is......' , the underlined 'to this day' is pointing a time after the death of Prophet Moses and not before as you presumed .

All these observations can simply lead a rational reader to the conclusion that those passages are a latter insertion in Bible by a third hand party .

 

[Union]

What was created first , the Sun or the earth ?

Bible says : the earth .
Science says : the Sun .


Genesis 01 =

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

 

[dantech]

What was created first , the Sun or the earth ?

Bible says : the earth .
Science says : the Sun .


Genesis 01 =

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

I don't quite understand the purpose of this post... are you trying to prove the Torah wrong by saying that it contradicts science? If so, well that's no proof at all since what science believes is all theory. Has science not been wrong before?

 

[dantech]

Hello there . Firstly , if it was Moses who was writing about his own death , somehow , the third person in the sentence doesn't make sense , though different Midarshim resented by the Jews scholars to skip this difficulty , as Dantech also tried to uplift .

Secondly , the tense of the verse is past tense , hence the event happened before to the narration of the event .

Lastly , from the passage we see , '5 And Moses the servant of the Lord died there in Moab, as the Lord had said. 6 He buried him[a] in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is......' , the underlined 'to this day' is pointing a time after the death of Prophet Moses and not before as you presumed .

All these observations can simply lead a rational reader to the conclusion that those passages are a latter insertion in Bible by a third hand party .

As I said before, it is really not a problem for Moses to write a text about him at the 3rd person, specially when he is being told exactly what to write. He is merely writing the narration he is listening to.

"To this day" or "עַ֖ד הַיֹּ֥ום הַזֶּֽה" is often used in the Torah. It is used to show that a certain event, or law, or anything else is valid and applicable in the time of the reader. Now, say this wasn't true... It doesn't change the fact that it doesn't really matter what Moses is writing, or that it is Moses writing it either... God was basically the one writing it, through the hands of a human being who happened to be Moses.