The trial as per the gospels vs. Jewish law

[dybmh]

the word that condenses the cursing into a distinct category

Condenses....

I think what you're observing is that the NT and Christianity in general simplifies Judaism while at that same time forcing things into an exaggerated black/white dynamic.

... Simplifies and forces things into a black/white dynamic....

Condenses... the condensed version of a text does what?

Simplifies and forces things into a black/white dynamic

Consenstion: a change in evironmental pulls different water droplets out of thin air and puts them all in the same cup.

 

[Colt]

Agitator?!?!? Jesus claimed to be the promised Messiah and the King of the Jews which is a claim for establishing the Independent kingdom and rebellion against Rome punishable by crucifixion.

Not exactly. Jesus knew that he wasn’t the Messiah as that concept evolved in Judaism. His coming was the event foreseen by prophets, but the expectations attached to it was erroneous.

 

[Eli G]

To know Jesus you have to study what is written about him

John 4:16 He said to her:

__ “Go, call your husband and come to this place.”

17 The woman replied:

__ “I do not have a husband.”

Jesus said to her:

__ “You are right in saying, ‘I do not have a husband.’ 18 For you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. This you have said truthfully.”

19 The woman said to him:

__ “Sir, I see that you are a prophet. 20 Our forefathers worshipped on this mountain, but you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where people must worship.”

21 Jesus said to her:

__ “Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation begins with the Jews. 23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.”

25 The woman said to him:

__ “I know that Mes·siʹah is coming, who is called Christ. Whenever that one comes, he will declare all things to us openly.”

26 Jesus said to her:

__ “I am he, the one speaking to you.”

 

[shunyadragon]

Not exactly. Jesus knew that he wasn’t the Messiah as that concept evolved in Judaism. His coming was the event foreseen by prophets, but the expectations attached to it was erroneous.

See post #163

 

[dybmh]

without knowledge of the unspoken part of the Law, much of the written part is tautological.

Careful... I know you haven't read what Rabbi Hirsch actually wrote yet, but, please do not project this into it. The Rabbi says the absolute opposite. ALL of it is spoken. All of it is spoken. All of it.

Rabbi Hirsch is clear that the entire Law, as written, can't be interpreted without access to an oral element that isn't itself given with the written text.

Not even close. The lecture is being given by God to Moses. God tells Moses precisely which words are written, and explains how each word is expanded ( never reduced, never changed, never added to ). Each and every word that is written corresponds absoutely 100% to the explanation which was given. The explanation was given. spoken. attached. to. each word. that was written. All of it is given at the same time.

The student is attending a lecture and has been given the teacher's personal notes, the syllabus, the formulas, the equations, the rules for the students to follow, all of that is written on a chalk board. Those words written on the chalk board are given to the student. The teacher proceeds to lecture exaplaining each and every word.

The student returns to their elders, and reads them the written copy that they received of the lecture, from the teacher. The elders write, word-for-word, what was written. As the each word is written, the student who heard the lecture, first hand, teaches the elders, what each word means while it is fresh in their mind. Then the elders, when the scroll is complete, they teach it to each other. The student, Moses, is there, supervising, correcting each of the elders. If a single word is mispoken, if a single idea is dropped, it is corrected immediately.

Then the elders teach the officers and judges of the large groups. They do the same things. The elders monitor. Problems/questions are sent up the chain of command eventually reaching Moses if needed. Eventually everyone knows the rules.

That's what we, Jews, were doing for 40 years in the wilderness.

The Talmud and the Gospels are two distinct, and different, oral traditions

The Talmud contain the ideas that came from God. Mixed with human ideas. The Gospels contain ideas that came from people who thought they had a god possessing them, but are unqualified to distinguish between their own desires and divine holy wisdom. They wanted to create a god, for themselves primarly out of jealousy.

Almost anything that can be either good-or-evil is poisoned by jealousy. Please read Genesis 2-3. Then keep reading to Genesis 4, then 5, then 6, then 7 then 8 then 9 then 10 then 11, then 12....

Domination and Colonization. All comes from Jealousy.

Matthew 28:18-19

18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. 19 Therefore go and make disciplesd of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, 20 "and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”​

​

"All authority has been given to me..." = Domination
"go to all nations and teach them to obey all of my commands" = Colonization

But! When was this? Who would have told this story? This was only heard by whom? Not the common people. This is no sermon on the mount. It's a spirit. It's after Jesus died. The story that's told here is technically, not a lie about Jesus. In theory, a God fearing person, can delude themself "I think it was Jesus, so, I can write about it" and if I feel the spirit in me when I write, it must be true. And if I don't get zapped, that means, Ἀμὴν Ἀμὴν, Amen, Amen, it's truly-true. Verily-verily Jesus has all authority, next stop, the crusades.

But like I said before, they don't know how to distinguish he feeling of one spriit which comes from a holy place, and a spirit which does not. And that's how a "holy" institution can permit decades of child abuse. What they are feeling is their own desire to be possessed by a god.

Jews.... Don't do this. The Talmud? Even though it's written by men, who lived in a specific time and place, never ever claimed to be holy. They never claimed perfection or innerrancy.

The result is , both Talmud and Gospels are equal. The quality of both is coming from men, in a certain time, in a certain place. But, the Talmud permits reconstructing what was spoken on Sinai, if a person has been trained to nderstand how it was written, and the process for expanding God's literal words from it. There's a way to use the Talmud to go back to Sinai.

The gospels? A person can go and explore what a jealous hungry heart can do.

 

[dybmh]

To know Jesus you have to study what is written about him

Yup... don't forget to put yourself in the story. And understand the implications of what it says.

Jesus said to her:

And he said to her without any witnesses....

Read the bible. None of the disciples were there. WHO told this story?

 

[Eli G]

John 4 ... "WHO told this story?"

Think, reason, meditate... give me your best answer.

 

[Eli G]

Every time a Jew tries to cast doubt on the Christian Scriptures they are casting even greater doubt on the Hebrew Scriptures...

These modern Jews don't even take into account that all the Christian Greek Scriptures were produced by first century Jews who recognized Jesus as their Messiah.

Actually, regardless of whether these Christian Scriptures were written in Greek (except for Matthew who reportedly wrote his gospel originally in Hebrew), the Jews themselves had already made a Greek version of the Hebrew Scriptures more than 2 centuries BC and Christian-Jews quoted it many times in their inspired writings.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

John 4 ... "WHO told this story?"

Think, reason, meditate... give me your best answer.

Best guess? The story is made up. The gospel writer (we don't know who they are) indiscriminately collected all the legends about Jesus without concern for literal historical accuracy.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Every time a Jew tries to cast doubt on the Christian Scriptures they are casting even greater doubt on the Hebrew Scriptures...

The difference is, Judaism does not depend on the historicity of the stories. Christianity on the other hand, is absolutely dependent on Jesus having been literally crucified and rising from the dead.

 

[Colt]

To know Jesus you have to study what is written about him

John 4:16 He said to her:

__ “Go, call your husband and come to this place.”

17 The woman replied:

__ “I do not have a husband.”

Jesus said to her:

__ “You are right in saying, ‘I do not have a husband.’ 18 For you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. This you have said truthfully.”

19 The woman said to him:

__ “Sir, I see that you are a prophet. 20 Our forefathers worshipped on this mountain, but you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where people must worship.”

21 Jesus said to her:

__ “Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation begins with the Jews. 23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.”

25 The woman said to him:

__ “I know that Mes·siʹah is coming, who is called Christ. Whenever that one comes, he will declare all things to us openly.”

26 Jesus said to her:

__ “I am he, the one speaking to you.”

Sort of, “ “Yes, I know, Sir, that John has preached about the coming of the Converter, he who will be called the Deliverer, and that, when he shall come, he will declare to us all things"—and Jesus, interrupting Nalda, said with startling assurance, “I who speak to you am he.”

He was the deliverer, but the Jews had developed specific, erroneous ideas about a Messiah.

 

[Eli G]

John 4:25,26

Λέγει αὐτῷ __ said to him
ἡ γυνή· __ the woman:
οἶδα __ I know
ὅτι Μεσσίας ἔρχεται __ that Messiah is coming
ὁ λεγόμενος χριστός· __ the one called Christ
ὅταν ἔλθῃ ἐκεῖνος, __ Whenever that one comes
ἀναγγελεῖ ἡμῖν __ he will declare openly to us
ἅπαντα. __ all things
λέγει αὐτῇ ὁ Ἰησοῦς· __ said to her Jesus:
ἐγώ εἰμι, __ I am
ὁ λαλῶν σοι. __ the one speaking to you.

 

[dybmh]

Talmudic tradition also prescribed that when the religious judges heard testimony setting forth blasphemous words supposedly used by the accused, they were to rend their garments, following the example at 2 Kings 18:37;19:1-4

Ignoring that the word "blasphemy" is literally a greek word and a greek concept...

This ^^ is inaccurate. Rending garments does not equal blasphemy however you choose to imagine it. It doesn't indicate a crime was committed. The example brought is what a faithful Jew does to reverse a negative divine decree.

2 Kings 19:1​

​

And it came to pass, when king Hezekiah heard it, that he tore his clothes, and covered himself with sackcloth, and went into the house of the Lord.​

Compare to

Esther 4:1​

​

When Mordecai perceived all that was done, Mordecai tore his clothes, and put on sackcloth with ashes, and went out into the midst of the city, and cried with a loud and a bitter cry;​

Hmmmmm.... you said: "when the religious judges heard testimony setting forth blasphemous words supposedly used by the accused". That's weird. 2nd Kings isn't a court. No one is accused. And Hezekiah goes to the temple. No one is punished. There is no stoning. The same thing is happening in Esther. There is no cursing the name. There is no court. No one is accused. No one is punished. Where is the connection being made again? Ohhhhhhhhh! I see it. You're trusting the sinner, the author of Matthew, the Jesus disciple, to tell you about the law again. Sheesh. I wonder why you keep doing that?

Let's keep going


19:3

ויאמרו אליו כה אמר חזקיהו יום־צרה ותוכחה ונאצה היום הזה כי באו בנים עד־משבר וכח אין ללדה׃

And they said to him, Thus said Hezekiah, This day is a day of צרה, and of תוכחה, and נאצה; for the children have come to the birth, and there is not strength to bring them forth.

נאצה? That's an odd word. None of the other occurances of *actually* cursing God's name use that word. Weird. It's weird that you're applying cursing God's name to this episode. In fact, none of the words used in Exodus or Numbers are included here. Hmmm....

Here's the greek:

καὶ εἶπον πρὸς αὐτόν τάδε λέγει Εζεκιας ἡμέρα θλίψεως καὶ ἐλεγμοῦ καὶ παροργισμοῦ ἡ ἡμέρα αὕτη ὅτι ἦλθον υἱοὶ ἕως ὠδίνων καὶ ἰσχὺς οὐκ ἔστιν τῇ τικτούσῃ

Hmmmm... where's blasphemy? There's 3 choices: θλίψεως, ἐλεγμοῦ, παροργισμοῦ. Now, I'm not great with greek, but I know blasphemy, cause, it's got a great big "B" in greek in front of it. I wonder if any of the other examples you brought have any of these words in it?

Exodus 20:7, when the law was given:

οὐ λήμψῃ τὸ ὄνομα κυρίου τοῦ θεοῦ σου ἐπὶ ματαίῳ οὐ γὰρ μὴ καθαρίσῃ κύριος τὸν λαμβάνοντα τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ ἐπὶ ματαίῳ

No.... nothing matching there.

Exodus 22:28?

θεοὺς οὐ κακολογήσεις καὶ ἄρχοντας τοῦ λαοῦ σου οὐ κακῶς ἐρεῖς

No..... nothing matching there.

Leviticus 24:11-16 (This is the best example. This is the standard, all other examples should be held to)

Verse 11: καὶ ἐπονομάσας ὁ υἱὸς τῆς γυναικὸς τῆς Ισραηλίτιδος τὸ ὄνομα κατηράσατο καὶ ἤγαγον αὐτὸν πρὸς Μωυσῆν καὶ τὸ ὄνομα τῆς μητρὸς αὐτοῦ Σαλωμιθ θυγάτηρ Δαβρι ἐκ τῆς φυλῆς Δαν

καὶ ἐπονομάσας τὸ ὄνομα - and he named the name?
κατηράσατο - κατ-ηράσ-ατο - very-much cursed 3rd-person-masculine-singular-reflexive?

καὶ ἐπονομάσας τὸ ὄνομα κατηράσατο - he named the name and very-much cursed it.

Verse 14: ἐξάγαγε τὸν καταρασάμενον ἔξω τῆς παρεμβολῆς καὶ ἐπιθήσουσιν πάντες οἱ ἀκούσαντες τὰς χεῖρας αὐτῶν ἐπὶ τὴν κεφαλὴν αὐτοῦ καὶ λιθοβολήσουσιν αὐτὸν πᾶσα ἡ συναγωγή

Verse 15: καὶ τοῖς υἱοῖς Ισραηλ λάλησον καὶ ἐρεῖς πρὸς αὐτούς ἄνθρωπος ὃς ἐὰν καταράσηται θεόν ἁμαρτίαν λήμψεται

Verse 16: ὀνομάζων δὲ τὸ ὄνομα κυρίου θανάτῳ θανατούσθω λίθοις λιθοβολείτω αὐτὸν πᾶσα συναγωγὴ Ισραηλ ἐάν τε προσήλυτος ἐάν τε αὐτόχθων ἐν τῷ ὀνομάσαι αὐτὸν τὸ ὄνομα κυρίου τελευτάτω

---

---

@Eli G ,

Well, that should clear up everything right? You know greek? That's it. Case closed. This backs up literally everything @rosends has been saying. And you trust greek, right? That's holy for you?

The crime is "ὀνομάζων δὲ τὸ ὄνομα κυρίου, καταράσηται θεόν"

None of that is in 2 Kings 19. None. Did Jesus do this in the trial scene in any of the gospels? No. Why do faithful-Jews *actually* rend their garments? To negate a harsh decree.

Is your source fallacious? Yes.

 

[dybmh]

John 4:25,26

Λέγει αὐτῷ __ said to him
ἡ γυνή· __ the woman:
οἶδα __ I know
ὅτι Μεσσίας ἔρχεται __ that Messiah is coming
ὁ λεγόμενος χριστός· __ the one called Christ
ὅταν ἔλθῃ ἐκεῖνος, __ Whenever that one comes
ἀναγγελεῖ ἡμῖν __ he will declare openly to us
ἅπαντα. __ all things
λέγει αὐτῇ ὁ Ἰησοῦς· __ said to her Jesus:
ἐγώ εἰμι, __ I am
ὁ λαλῶν σοι. __ the one speaking to you.

So what? It was in private. You're not quoting Jesus, you're quoting a person who wrote a story. There were no witnesses.

You omitted the very next verse. naughty-naughty. They were all alone. This is no sermon on the mount. And this story doesn't exist in any other of the gospels. Does it? You only have 1 written account, of an event that no one can corroborate. In a collection of legends which the compiler has proven they are unable or unwilling to distinguish fact from fiction.

This story was added much later. After the missionaries discovered, "Hey, nothing in our books says Jesus is *actually* the Messiah. That's weird... and people are calling us on it" Then it was added to bolster recruitment.

 

[dybmh]

we have a tautology

It's in the text. Per Lev 24, the crime is "ὀνομάζων δὲ τὸ ὄνομα κυρίου, καταράσηται θεόν"

Lev 24:16

ונקב שם־יהוה מות יומת רגום ירגמו־בו כל־העדה כגר כאזרח בנקבו־שם יומת׃

ὀνομάζων δὲ τὸ ὄνομα κυρίου θανάτῳ θανατούσθω λίθοις λιθοβολείτω αὐτὸν πᾶσα συναγωγὴ Ισραηλ ἐάν τε προσήλυτος ἐάν τε αὐτόχθων ἐν τῷ ὀνομάσαι αὐτὸν τὸ ὄνομα κυρίου τελευτάτω

נקב שם־יהוה = ὀνομάζων δὲ τὸ ὄνομα κυρίου

From verse 11: καὶ ἐπονομάσας τὸ ὄνομα κατηράσατο - he named the name and very-much cursed it.

 

[dybmh]

John 4 ... "WHO told this story?"

Think, reason, meditate... give me your best answer.

The sinner, a Jesus disciple, whom later is named "John", 100+ years after the event is supposed to have taken place.

 

[Eli G]

Talking about blasphemy and saying "no Jew is excluded" ...

 

[dybmh]

Talking about blasphemy and saying "no Jew is excluded" ...

Yup. No Jew is excluded. What's your theology? Let me guess? Divide and conquer? Alexander the Great? The Greek?

 

[Eli G]

Blasphemous Jews are not excluded? They should be killed under the Law.

He/it doesn't even realize the contradiction...

 

[dybmh]

Blasphemous Jews are not excluded? They should be killed under the Law.

He/it doesn't even realize the contradiction...

Yup. You don't understand the difference between justice on earth vs. justice in heaven. Much better to have a Jewish Court kill you, and then return to God having the debt paid.

Eccl 12:7

And the dust returns to the earth as it was; and the spirit returns to God who gave it.