The Trinity Concept

[Gaura Priya]

Hi Madhuri, it's very easy to be thoroughly confused by the many and varied re-interpretations of, not only the doctrines of God the son, the Holy Spirit, and the Father,which go to make up the "trinity concept" but also nigh on every other biblical teaching, I'm sure you will agree. However if I may be so bold, it doesn't really matter what people who profess to be protestant, catholic or whatever title they give themselves "believe;" the scripture is the only authority on scripture, and the scripture states that it is not open to any private interpretation.

So to asnwer your question, if someone states that they do not "believe" in "the concept of the trinity" they simply don't yet have a clear understanding of the scripture, or, they have been subjected to inaccurate teaching about it. The good news is that this sort of topic isn't a Biblical guessing game for anyone committed to understandng these and other important Christian doctrines.

The Scripture does not even have the word 'Trinity' in it, so how can you say that it is Scripture under Scripture? When I read the Bible, I read it under a non-Trinitarian lens, because Jesus did not ask us to worship him, but to worship the Father; neither did he ask us to pray to him, but to pray to the Father in his name.

The Gospel is pretty clear to me... you can believe different if you choose to believe the Trinity, but I choose not to.

 

[Bereanz]

The Scripture does not even have the word 'Trinity' in it, so how can you say that it is Scripture under Scripture? When I read the Bible, I read it under a non-Trinitarian lens, because Jesus did not ask us to worship him, but to worship the Father; neither did he ask us to pray to him, but to pray to the Father in his name.

The Gospel is pretty clear to me... you can believe different if you choose to believe the Trinity, but I choose not to.

Well thanks for letting me believe what I'm going to believe even if it's different from you, it's very benevolent, tolerant and gracious of you. There's no such word as "non trintarian lens" in the bible by the way so I'm not sure how you can say that, not to mention the mere fact that Jesus claimed to be God, hense they nailed him to a cross for it. I don't mind people believing what they want to believe even if its different from me either (Im good like that), but I get a bit peeved when people say the Bible says stuff it doesn't say and say it doesn't say stuff that it does say. But we'll leave it there you and me, because this isnt going to finish any better than it started, I'm sure you will agree!!! Happy non trinitarian lensing.
PS: If Jesus wasn't and isn't God, then your still in your sins, which is what your gospel is! This is not the true biblical Gospel. Only God can save you from your sins, IE God in the flesh Jesus Christ is the name of God. A mere mortal man can not save you. (I'm assuming of course that you have a realisation that you need and want salvation) If not then, pardon me for being presumpteous.

 

[Gaura Priya]

It is presumptuous to claim that those who espouse Unitarian views 'just haven't looked at the Bible long and hard enough.'

Well thanks for letting me believe what I'm going to believe even if it's different from you, it's very benevolent, tolerant and gracious of you. There's no such word as "non trintarian lens" in the bible by the way so I'm not sure how you can say that, not to mention the mere fact that Jesus claimed to be God, hense they nailed him to a cross for it. I don't mind people believing what they want to believe even if its different from me either (Im good like that), but I get a bit peeved when people say the Bible says stuff it doesn't say and say it doesn't say stuff that it does say. But we'll leave it there you and me, because this isnt going to finish any better than it started, I'm sure you will agree!!! Happy non trinitarian lensing.
PS: If Jesus wasn't and isn't God, then your still in your sins, which is what your gospel is! This is not the true biblical Gospel. Only God can save you from your sins, IE God in the flesh Jesus Christ is the name of God. A mere mortal man can not save you. (I'm assuming of course that you have a realisation that you need and want salvation) If not then, pardon me for being presumpteous.

"Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."
-- Matthew 4:10

"Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah: and thou shalt love Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might."
-- Deuteronomy 6:4-5

What saves us? Believing that Jesus is the Son of God, and that he died for the atonement of sins. He prayed to the Father in the Garden of Gethsemane, and those drops of blood that came from his blessed head were the atoning sacrifice for the sins of all mankind.

"I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman."
-- John 15:1

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto the Father. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son."
-- John 14:12-13

"And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ."
-- John 17:3

When we know Jesus Christ, we will come to know Jehovah God. It is through Jesus that we can learn on how to worship the Father in His proper glory.

I follow the same lineage of belief as that of Arius, of Socinius, of the Christadelphians, of the Church of God General Conference, of the Seventh Day Baptists, of the early Seventh Day Adventists, the Bible Students, and of course, the Jehovah's Witnesses, and even the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And they found their beliefs in the Bible, and see the Bible that the way of salvation, of eternal life, is to know the One True God, Jehovah, and His Only-begotten Son, Jesus Christ.

 

[Bereanz]

It is presumptuous to claim that those who espouse Unitarian views 'just haven't looked at the Bible long and hard enough.'



"Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."
-- Matthew 4:10

"Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah: and thou shalt love Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might."
-- Deuteronomy 6:4-5

What saves us? Believing that Jesus is the Son of God, and that he died for the atonement of sins. He prayed to the Father in the Garden of Gethsemane, and those drops of blood that came from his blessed head were the atoning sacrifice for the sins of all mankind.

"I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman."
-- John 15:1

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto the Father. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son."
-- John 14:12-13

"And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ."
-- John 17:3

When we know Jesus Christ, we will come to know Jehovah God. It is through Jesus that we can learn on how to worship the Father in His proper glory.

I follow the same lineage of belief as that of Arius, of Socinius, of the Christadelphians, of the Church of God General Conference, of the Seventh Day Baptists, of the early Seventh Day Adventists, the Bible Students, and of course, the Jehovah's Witnesses, and even the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And they found their beliefs in the Bible, and see the Bible that the way of salvation, of eternal life, is to know the One True God, Jehovah, and His Only-begotten Son, Jesus Christ.

Im a desciple of Jesus Christ, AKA God. All the best to you

 

[Katzpur]

I follow the same lineage of belief as that of Arius, of Socinius, of the Christadelphians, of the Church of God General Conference, of the Seventh Day Baptists, of the early Seventh Day Adventists, the Bible Students, and of course, the Jehovah's Witnesses, and even the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And they found their beliefs in the Bible, and see the Bible that the way of salvation, of eternal life, is to know the One True God, Jehovah, and His Only-begotten Son, Jesus Christ.

I could be wrong, but I don't think Arius believed Jesus Christ to be divine. I'm not sure about all of the other groups you mentioned, but the Latter-day Saints totally believe that He was every bit as divine as His Father. They just don't believe He was the same being as the Father.

 

[Gaura Priya]

I could be wrong, but I don't think Arius believed Jesus Christ to be divine. I'm not sure about all of the other groups you mentioned, but the Latter-day Saints totally believe that He was every bit as divine as His Father. They just don't believe He was the same being as the Father.

Arianism actually allows belief in the Divinity of Christ; not exactly the same as the Latter-day Saint doctrine, but it does allow for a Divinity of Christ. He was the Firstborn of Creation. But while Latter Day Saint Christianity says that Jesus was a co-Creator and thus the God of both the Jews (and the Muslims), Arius taught rather that Jesus was the firstly created spirit child.

The difference is that while Arius said that God the Father can never be known, even Jesus Christ, other groups such as the Jehovah's Witnesses, believe that Jesus can know God the Father in all perfection.

I think that is the one thing that I am still struggling with when it comes to belief in Latter Day Saint Christianity, is the relationship between Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, because I came from traditions where Jesus was either equal to Heavenly Father (Catholic Christianity), or rather that Jesus was reflecting the Father's light like a Divine Mirror, but not eternally divine himself (Baha'i Faith).

One thing is for sure - the Trinity never made sense to me, and I just accepted it without thinking about, studying and praying about it!

"Arius taught that Jesus Christ was divine and was sent to earth for the salvation of mankind but that Jesus Christ was not equal to the Father (infinite, primordial origin) and to the Holy Spirit (giver of life). Under Arianism, Christ was instead not consubstantial with God the Father since both the Father and the Son under Arius were made of 'like' essence or being but not of the same essence or being."
-- Wikipedia

 

[Hawkins]

His Trinity was prophesied in OT, the Jews failed to realize as usual.

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

and his name shall be called Wonderful Counsellor (Holy Spirit), The mighty God (God), The everlasting Father(Father), The Prince of Peace(Son).

His name is God;
His name is the Holy Spirit;
His name is God the Father;
His name is God the Son;

In NT it becomes,

In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. It means in the name of God.

 

[Katzpur]

His Trinity was prophesied in OT, the Jews failed to realize as usual.

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

and his name shall be called Wonderful Counsellor (Holy Spirit), The mighty God (God), The everlasting Father(Father), The Prince of Peace(Son).

His name is God;
His name is the Holy Spirit;
His name is God the Father;
His name is God the Son;

In NT it becomes,

In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. It means in the name of God.

I disagree. I believe Isaiah 9:6 was referring strictly to Jesus Christ. How can a Father be His own Son or a Son His own Father? Why would Jesus pray to Himself in the Garden of Gethsemane (or anywhere else He was said to be praying, for that matter)? Why would He have asked Himself to forgive His murderers? The Bible teaches that the Father and the Son are "one" but it doesn't say they are numerically "one." "One" can also mean united.

 

[Katzpur]

I think that is the one thing that I am still struggling with when it comes to belief in Latter Day Saint Christianity, is the relationship between Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, because I came from traditions where Jesus was either equal to Heavenly Father (Catholic Christianity), or rather that Jesus was reflecting the Father's light like a Divine Mirror, but not eternally divine himself (Baha'i Faith).

Most Christians also use the words “co-equal” and “co-eternal” to describe the relationship between the Father and the Son. We do not. We believe that, as is again the case with all fathers and sons, the Father existed prior to His Son. No son's existence precedes his father's, and Jesus Christ is no exception to this rule. We also believe Christ to be subordinate to His Father. He is divine because of His relationship with His Father. It is, however, important to understand what we mean when we use the word "subordinate." We understand that the Son holds a subordinate position in the relationship; we do not believe Him to be an inferior being. As an example, a colonel holds an inferior position to a general, but is not an inferior being. To most people's way of thinking, an ant, however, is an inferior being to a human.

 

[Hawkins]

I disagree. I believe Isaiah 9:6 was referring strictly to Jesus Christ. How can a Father be His own Son or a Son His own Father? Why would Jesus pray to Himself in the Garden of Gethsemane (or anywhere else He was said to be praying, for that matter)? Why would He have asked Himself to forgive His murderers? The Bible teaches that the Father and the Son are "one" but it doesn't say they are numerically "one." "One" can also mean united.

A prophecy is written that way and style. You can have all the reasons to disagree that "cast lot for clothes" in Psalm is actually referring to Jesus' scenario.

 

[Katzpur]

A prophecy is written that way and style. You can have all the reasons to disagree that "cast lot for clothes" in Psalm is actually referring to Jesus' scenario.

I'm not following you. What does that have to do with the doctrine of the Trinity?

 

[Hawkins]

I'm not following you. What does that have to do with the doctrine of the Trinity?

I am talking about the nature of prophecy. Sometimes you can go abit off topic in discussions to explain things. If you can't follow, then just leave it there for others to follow.

 

[Bereanz]

A prophecy is written that way and style. You can have all the reasons to disagree that "cast lot for clothes" in Psalm is actually referring to Jesus' scenario.

Exactly, well said. It makes no never mind what one believes unless one believes the truth. The bible is clear on this topic, which is why those who won't believe it ALWAYS refer to additional texts (outside the Bible) not to mention re writting their own version of scripture. AKA the Book of Mormon AKA the New World Translation. And thats cool, but anyone who says the Bible isn't clear on the deity and divinity of Christ is immediately exposed as a false prophet, and that's really cool.

And they shall call his name Immanuel which means God with us.

 

[Katzpur]

Exactly, well said. It makes no never mind what one believes unless one believes the truth. The bible is clear on this topic, which is why those who won't believe it ALWAYS refer to additional texts (outside the Bible) not to mention re writting their own version of scripture. AKA the Book of Mormon AKA the New World Translation. And thats cool, but anyone who says the Bible isn't clear on the deity and divinity of Christ is immediately exposed as a false prophet, and that's really cool.

If the Bible is so darned clear on this topic, what was the purpose of the Nicene Creed? It's as extra-biblical as the Book of Mormon is, but you're totally fine relying on it. As a Mormon, I believe every single solitary word the Bible says about Jesus Christ, but apparently the Bible didn't cover all of the nuances fourth-century Christians felt were necessary. Oh, and by the way, the Book of Mormon definitely isn't some kind of a re-write of the Bible. Mormons devote as much time studying the Bible as they do the Book of Mormon.

 

[Bereanz]

If the Bible is so darned clear on this topic, what was the purpose of the Nicene Creed? It's as extra-biblical as the Book of Mormon is, but you're totally fine relying on it. As a Mormon, I believe every single solitary word the Bible says about Jesus Christ, but apparently the Bible didn't cover all of the nuances fourth-century Christians felt were necessary. Oh, and by the way, the Book of Mormon definitely isn't some kind of a re-write of the Bible. Mormons devote as much time studying the Bible as they do the Book of Mormon.

The Nicean Creed has about as much to do with Holy writ as the book of Mormon AKA NOTHING! Do some research mate, seriously. You deny the Deity of Jesus Christ so dont tell me you believe everything written in Scripture about Jesus Christ. I'm not about to give you a lesson in the Doctrine of the Father, the Son and the Holy spirit it would take about six months. At least. Other than the bible of course there is enough material to keep you reading about the doctrines of Christianity for over three earthly life times. Im sure you will agree a Mormon and a Christian debating the Bible and Jesus Christ will be about as fruitful as a withered fig tree.

Honestly though, the Bible is as much use as the book of Mormon is to a Christian, No use. People who read the Bible hoping to find a belief or even to formulate an opinion about the God of the Bible are wasting their time. The Bible is only useful to people who alreardy believe in and know who God is. The Bible is the Book of Books to the believer, and believers and unbelivers are in actual fact two different species.

Do you realise that Bible is used as the text for every single cult religion on the face of this earth including athiesm? Thats right many athiest are more knowledgeable and well read on the bible in some cases better than some Christians and they use it as EVIDENCE for athiesm. Hello! But knowledge and Wisdom are two different things.

Our attitude to the Bible is a stupid one; we come to the Bible for proof of God’s existence, but the Bible has no meaning for us until we know God does exist. The Bible states and affirms facts for the benefit of those who believe in God; those who don’t believe in God can tear it to bits if they choose. People can dispute the words of the Bible as they like, but get a soul in whom the craving for God has come, and the words of the Bible create the new life in him. “…being born again…by the word of God” (1Peter 1:23) OSWALD CHAMBERS

 

[Katzpur]

You deny the Deity of Jesus Christ so dont tell me you believe everything written in Scripture about Jesus Christ.

Excuse me? I have never, ever denied the deity of Jesus Christ. In fact in this very thread I stated that He is ever bit as divine as His Father. In the future, I would appreciate it very much if you were not to attempt again to tell me what I believe.

Im sure you will agree a Mormon and a Christian debating the Bible and Jesus Christ will be about as fruitful as a withered fig tree.

Agree? No. I've been doing just that on this forum for almost 5 years running. Furthermore, I am every bit as much a Christian as you are. There is no reason whatsoever for you to assume that a debate between us would be fruitless.

There is no need to become completely unglued over a difference of opinion. I have an appointment and don't have the time to respond to the rest of your post right now, but you seriously need to curb the hostility just a tad. I'd like to have a civil conversation with you, but not until you can show some maturity and respect for the differences in our beliefs.

 

[Bereanz]

Excuse me? I have never, ever denied the deity of Jesus Christ. In fact in this very thread I stated that He is ever bit as divine as His Father. In the future, I would appreciate it very much if you were not to attempt again to tell me what I believe.

Agree? No. I've been doing just that on this forum for almost 5 years running. Furthermore, I am every bit as much a Christian as you are. There is no reason whatsoever for you to assume that a debate between us would be fruitless.

There is no need to become completely unglued over a difference of opinion. I have an appointment and don't have the time to respond to the rest of your post right now, but you seriously need to curb the hostility just a tad. I'd like to have a civil conversation with you, but not until you can show some maturity and respect for the differences in our beliefs.

If the Bible is so darned clear on this topic, what was the purpose of the Nicene Creed? It's as extra-biblical as the Book of Mormon is, but you're totally fine relying on it.

I found this remark to me by you to be quite uncivil and hostile. And now you have the gall to rebuke me for being uncivil and hostile? Funny. That said I dont accept that my response to you was either uncivil or hostile. If you did, that isn't my problem.

If you have been debating with Christians for five years, then by now you should be crystal clear on the fact that Christians rely fully and solely on the Bible. Which shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone given that it is the text of the CHRISTIAN FAITH! Nicean Greeds and other external texts outside of the Bible are of no use or value to discussion on the Doctrines of Christianity nor do they refute Christianity and or the Bible in any way and they especialy do not make the clear orthodox biblical facts of the 2000 year old Christian faith unclear. Those who attempt to suggest they do show themselves to be hostile towards biblical truth/realities.

Mormons believe Jesus Christ was a created being, created by God, separate and apart from God, a common heresy among EVERY CULT! The Bible CLEARLY teaches that Jesus Christ is God, it also teaches that the Holy Spirit is God. I don't need to debate with you for five years to establish the obvious chasm between the LDS Doctrines and the Doctrines of Christianity, do you? You are trying to tell me the Bible is unclear on this, well I say to you...How dare you? I have no compunction to seek to form common ground with a mormon in a thread about the Biblical reality of the Trinity, when we have ZERO common ground to build on. The doctrine is being attacked in this thread by Jehovahs Witness, Mormons, atheists, heathen and other pagen unbelievers. How would you feel if we where all misrepresenting and attacking the credibilty of Joseph Smith from a position of complete and total ignorance of his writing? So, do we really have anything further to discuss?

I might add that as the "trinity" concept is a question I can only assume was put to Christians who are clear about this most wonderful and illuminating biblical Christian Doctrine in the hope of learning about what it means, instead the overwhelming response has been from non Christians adding their 10 cents as to what it isn't.

All the best.

 

[Katzpur]

I found this remark to me by you to be quite uncivil and hostile.

That remark was uncivil and hostile? You've got to be kidding. Seriously, I'm starting to think that you're going to consider anything I say that contradicts what you believe to be uncivil and hostile. I don't think one person in a hundred on this forum would have thought that remark was rude in any way. Well, maybe one.

If you have been debating with Christians for five years, then by now you should be crystal clear on the fact that Christians rely fully on solely on the Bible. Nicean Greeds and other external texts outside of the Bible are of no use or value to the Doctrines of Christianity nor are they any use to a converstaion about Christianity and nor do they refute Christianity and or the Bible in any way and they especialy do not make the clear orthodox biblical beliefs of the 2000 year old Christian faith unclear.

I see. So not only do you not consider me to be a Christian, you don't consider the world's 1 billion+ members of Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy to be Christians either, I guess, since they definitely do not rely solely on the Bible for their doctrines. All you're doing here is trying to define "Christian" according to a standard that includes only people who believe exactly as you do. There is nothing in the Bible itself that says the Bible should be our only source for doctrine, and prior to the Protestant Reformation, well over 99% of the world's Christians relied heavily on Holy Tradition for many of their beliefs. Are you saying there were no Christians around until the doctrine of Sola Scriptura was developed?

So what exactly is your point and what exactly do you want to discuss???

Uh... I thought we were talking about the Trinity. And my point is that I am as well-qualified to discuss it as you are.

Do you believe Jesus Christ is God, answer me that please?

I don't believe He is God the Father, but I believe He shares the title of "God" with His Father.

This is what I meant when I said you do not believe in the Deity IE the God hood of the Lord Jesus Christ/God in the Flesh. I dont need to debate with you for five years to establish the obvious chasm between the LDS Doctrines and the Doctrines of Christianity, do you?

I suspect it might take even longer than that at the rate we're going.

 

[Bereanz]

The trinity is very simple to grasp in laymans term

Ice, Steam and Water, are different manifestations of H20 But all are equally the same Chemical compound of H2O .

Apple Seed, Apple and Apple Tree, are likewise all different manifestations of the same thing.

Equally; God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are different manifestations of the same God. It's not rocket science. What makes it hard is when those who do not understand the simplicity of it, try to quote scriptures out of context. The biblical study of these doctrines is indepth, not complicated, but indepth. There are over 30,000 Sriptures in the Bible, those who try to refute this Doctrine are well trained in plucking and using scriptures out of context.

God bless you.

 

[Katzpur]

The trinity is very sinmple to grasp in laymans term

Ice, Steam and water, are different manifestations of H20 But all are equally the same.

But if I have a gallon of water and freeze it, while it may remain H2O, it ceases to be liquid. Similarly, if I have a block of ice, it too is H2O. If it melts, though, I no longer have ice. Are you saying this is true of God? That at those times, for instance, when the Father exists, the Son does not exist?

Equally; God the Father God the Son and God Holy SPirit are different manifestations of the same God. Its not rocket science.

No it's not rocket science. If I'm not mistaken, it's Modalism.