The Trinity Concept

[Madhuri]

I have only recently found out that a lot of Christians (predominantly Protestants, I gather) do not believe in the concept of the Trinity. But you believe in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. So what does it mean to not believe in the trinity? I am thoroughly confused.

 

[Thesavorofpan]

I have only recently found out that a lot of Christians (predominantly Protestants, I gather) do not believe in the concept of the Trinity. But you believe in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. So what does it mean to not believe in the trinity? I am thoroughly confused.

As the only Oneness Pentalocostal on this forum, I shall jump up to the occasion.
When you don't believe in the trinity you believe that God is one pyschially not just metaphorically, but he takes on the form of God the spirit, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. Its the same God, but just wearing different personas.

 

[Katzpur]

I have only recently found out that a lot of Christians (predominantly Protestants, I gather) do not believe in the concept of the Trinity. But you believe in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. So what does it mean to not believe in the trinity? I am thoroughly confused.

As you know, I am not a Protestant but a Latter-day Saint. We do not believe in the Trinity, but our first Article of Faith states: We believe in God the Eternal Father, and in His Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. On the surface, it would appear that we do, in fact, believe in the Trinity. When we say we don't accept this doctrine as true, what we are saying is that we don't accept the definition of God as put forth in 325 A.D. known as the Nicene Creed. Obviously, we don't believe in the later Creeds (i.e. the Athanasian Creed and others) either. It's not that we don't believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost; it's that we cannot accept the way in which the Nicene Creed describes their relationship. We believe it to be uninspired and cloaked in neo-platonic philosophical thought. We do not believe that the Father, Son or Holy Ghost would be able to recognize themselves in this document. But stop to think about it... Prior to 325 A.D., no one believed in "the Trinity" as described by the Nicene Creed. Those of us Christians who do not accept it are in pretty good company, though. There is no evidence that any of Christ's Apostles believed in what Thomas Jefferson described as "Platonic mysticism that three are one, and one is three, and yet that the one is not three, and the three are not one."

 

[Madhuri]

Ok, so is the difference, then, that the Trinity doctrine sees the Father, Son and Spirit as distinct aspects of the divine God that exist eternally as individual 'parts' but in a non-polytheistic way, whereas those who reject this doctrine see God as taking a form at various times as one of these three aspects?

 

[Katzpur]

Madhuri, here is the Nicene Creed:

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the living and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of life; who proceedeth from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spake by the prophets.

And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Here is the Athanasian Creed:

• Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;
• Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
• And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
• Neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance.
• For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
• But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal.
• Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
• The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Spirit uncreate.
• The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
• The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
• And yet they are not three eternals, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
• As also there are not three incomprehensibles [infinites], nor three uncreated, but one uncreated, and one incomprehensible [infinite].
• So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty;
• And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
• So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
• And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
• So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
• And yet not three Lords, but one Lord.
• For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity: to acknowledge every Person by himself to be both God and Lord,
• So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say: There are three Gods or three Lords.
• The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
• The Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten.
• The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
• So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
• And in this Trinity none is afore, or after another; none is greater, or less than another.
• But the whole three persons are co-eternal, and co-equal.
• So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
• He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
• Furthermore is it necessary to everlasting salvation than he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
• For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
• God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of the substance of His mother, born in the world.
• Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.[SIZE=+1][/SIZE]
• Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
• Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
• One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of the manhood into God.
• One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
• For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
• Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
• He ascended into heaven, He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty;
• From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
• At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
• And shall give account of their own works.
• And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
• This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully, cannot be saved.

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

Ok, so is the difference, then, that the Trinity doctrine sees the Father, Son and Spirit as distinct aspects of the divine God that exist eternally as individual 'parts' but in a non-polytheistic way, whereas those who reject this doctrine see God as taking a form at various times as one of these three aspects?

A Nicene Christian would disagree with your use of the word 'parts' to describe God just as they would if it was used to describe the nature of Christ.

God isn't three persons, part of whom is the Father, part the Son, and part the Spirit. Gos is 100% the Father, 100% the Son, and 100% the Spirit. Just like Christ is 100% God and 100% man (not 50% man, 50% God).

Three prosopon (persons) of one ousia (essence).

It's all nice and confusing.

 

[Pegg]

I have only recently found out that a lot of Christians (predominantly Protestants, I gather) do not believe in the concept of the Trinity. But you believe in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. So what does it mean to not believe in the trinity? I am thoroughly confused.

It means that we recognise the true nature of Jesus and the true nature of God because we do not downgrade the Almighty Creator to being a mortal man....nor do we upgrade Jesus to the position of the Almighty.

Jesus was leading us to the Father.... by recognizing this we can have a relationship with God Almighty and call on his name.

 

[Renji]

I would answer in position of the Roman Catholic Church.

This is from a Catholic Magazine, entitled "Know your Faith- In defense of the Catholic Truth"

The word "trinity" did not came from Jesus. You search the Bible and you will never encounter that word. That's why the other "christian" sects that deny this belief use this argument to prove that the Trinity was a mere invention of the Catholic Church.
A little history will enable us to understand why this word "Trinity" had come in. It was the key word that settled a problem caused by the Bible.
Early christians accepted the existence of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (as what we can found in "our" scriptures) But since they had no time to study the relationship among the divine persons due to persecutions (they had to flee constantly), there was no problem for years. But when Constantine issued the edict of Milan that gave Christians the freedom to practice their faith in 313 AD, it had give them more time to study the Gospels. The first thing that intrigued them was the relationship among the divine persons. How can the existence of these 3 be reconciled with the belief of one God? Since that time, there was no declaration about this, the bishops reflected. One of them was Archbishop Arius of Constantinople. He claimed that Jesus was an "inferior God". This started the controversy that ended in the council of Nicea, where the bishops gather, with the blessing of the Pope, proclaimed that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are equal: One God in three (but not separated) divine persons, and where the word "trinity" was officially used to describe the Christian God.

 

[Katzpur]

As you can see, Madhuri, even those Christians who do not believe in the Trinity as defined by the Nicene Creed do not have the same reasons for rejecting it, and do not have the same understanding as to the nature of God or the relationship between the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. So far, you have heard from a Pentacostal Oneness Christian, a Jehovah's Witness and a Latter-day Saint, all of whom reject the Trinity, but for different reasons, and none of whom agree with each other as to what the truth really is.

From the LDS standpoint, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost truly are "one," but they are not "one" in substance. This is our primary disagreement with the Creeds. The Creeds are often said (by those who accept them) as being "summaries" of biblical information. We Latter-day Saints disagree. We see them not as summaries but of expansions and extrapolations. Where does it say that He is three persons in one being? The answer is that it doesn't. That's what the Creeds say He is, but it's not what the Bible says. The Bible says only that God is "one." It implies (in John 17) the way in which the Father and the Son are "one" but it never, ever even suggests that they are both part of a single substance. Nowhere does it say that. It says simply that they are "one."

It always amazes me how traditional Christianity can take a word such as "image" and completely redefine the word as it applies to man's relationship to God. "Image" is, by definition, the representation of physical qualities. Period. It has no alternate definitions. Traditional Christians, however, feel completely comfortable insisting that man is created in the image of a define substance which they believe to have no physical image.

Unlike the word "image," the word "one" does have multiple meanings, one of which is "united." And yet, when it comes to the word "one," they will insist that it must be understood to mean a numerical unit, a single "substance," instead of granting that it is much more reasonable, not to mentional scripturally consistent, to understand it as meaning "united."

Consider the following verses:

Exodus 24:3 ...and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do.

Acts 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul...

Romans 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

In each of these verses, we can see that the one "one" is used to denote unity, not an actual number of units. The Latter-day Saints believe that the "oneness" of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is not of substance, but of absolute and perfect unity of mind, purpose, power and intent.

The purpose of the Creeds is to reconcile the problem of how three divine Persons can be one God. The way they (the Creeds) accomplish this is with two contradictory statements:

So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

Trinitarian Christians believe these two statements, despite the fact that they cannot even begin to explain the logic of how both could be true. The Latter-day Saint understanding of the "oneness" of God is biblical, easily explainable, and internally consistent.

 

[PVE1]

I came to the conclusion that the Trinity did not exist after my own studies. I find a lot of people usually are influenced in the concept and then try to denounce it already with a bias against it. However, starting brand new in Christianity, I soon realized that the Trinity is not at all in the scriptures.

I believe in God. I don't think "Father" is very accurate as it gives Him human qualities, just like "Him" does. However, it's the best we can do. I do believe in the Holy Spirit, but I see it as sort of the employee of God, while God is the employer. God tells the Holy Spirit what to do, it's not an individual nor is it capable of things on its own. I do not think Jesus was divine, but I do believe he was the "word" in flesh. As in, God's idea of the perfect individual and God's set ideas on how we should live put into flesh. I do not think Jesus realized his importance, but I do not think he could even compare to God. God can never be explained, so a Trinity is possible, but so is every other theory one may have on God.

With that being said, I also do notice that most Christians disregard the Trinity. I find that the Christians who are well read in Christian writings, the history, and have strived to know everything they can about the religion are the ones who deny it. On the contrary, the people who were born into the religion and passively acknowledge it are the ones who are staunch believers in the Trinity.

 

[Katzpur]

With that being said, I also do notice that most Christians disregard the Trinity. I find that the Christians who are well read in Christian writings, the history, and have strived to know everything they can about the religion are the ones who deny it. On the contrary, the people who were born into the religion and passively acknowledge it are the ones who are staunch believers in the Trinity.

I agree. It's essentially the ones who have been taught it all their lives and who have never really thought it through logically who believe it. Obviously, there are exceptions, but I think that is generally the case.

 

[Thesavorofpan]

Ok, so is the difference, then, that the Trinity doctrine sees the Father, Son and Spirit as distinct aspects of the divine God that exist eternally as individual 'parts' but in a non-polytheistic way, whereas those who reject this doctrine see God as taking a form at various times as one of these three aspects?

Yeah that pretty much sums up the differences in our beliefs.

 

[Renji]

One of my fave songs about the Trinity is this (it does not however explain the doctrine):

The Song/ Prayer for Blessing:

"Come and sing with hisup Lord and I will be cleansed
Come and wash me more and I'll be whiter than snow

I sing Glory to the Father
Glory to the Son
Glory to the Holy Spirit
Glory everyone"

So to explain the Trinity concept, it explains the relationship between the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, that they are one, and should not be treated separately. Just like our body, having different parts, but is still contained in one body or an individual.

 

[Katzpur]

So to explain the Trinity concept, it explains the relationship between the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, that they are one, and should not be treated separately. Just like our body, having different parts, but is still contained in one body or an individual.

But how are the one? The Creeds say they are one in substance; where does the Bible say that?

 

[Renji]

But how are the one? The Creeds say they are one in substance; where does the Bible say that?

It's just an analogy, Gam's. Consider the fact that the body is composed of different organ system. But in the end, they're still one in substance, in a way that they are contained in one body and you cannot remove nor separate the one from the other for it will die.... For they shall not be treated separately.

Teaching of the Church

The mystery of the Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit is the central mystery of our Christian Faith and life. This is one of the mysteries that are hidden in God. Only God can introduce to us God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

The following Biblical texts speak about the Holy Trinity:

Gn1:26 Then God said: "Let us make man in our image after our likeness."

Jn 10:30 The Father and I are one

Jn 5:26 For just as the Father has life in himself, so He gave to his Son the possession of life in himself.

It is true that the word 'Trinity' in the Bible but the essence and meaning of this word are in the Bible. There is only one God but manifested to us human beings in three persons so that in our limited nature as human beings, we can understand God.

John 1:1,14 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.....and the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Phil 2:5-7 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,being made in human likeness.

 

[tarasan]

I agree. It's essentially the ones who have been taught it all their lives and who have never really thought it through logically who believe it. Obviously, there are exceptions, but I think that is generally the case.

I guess I am an exception then.... ive studied it, and have found it to match up quite well with teh bible, also it helps us sort out some things in Perfect Being theology,

 

[Greygon]

I guess I am an exception then.... ive studied it, and have found it to match up quite well with teh bible, also it helps us sort out some things in Perfect Being theology,

I think the number of "exceptions" pretty much would cancel the rule. I am left wondering what one means when they say they are a Christian" yet does not hold to any aspect of divinity in Christ, nor the traditional creedal statements. It truly seems intellectually dishonest.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I think the number of "exceptions" pretty much would cancel the rule. I am left wondering what one means when they say they are a Christian" yet does not hold to any aspect of divinity in Christ, nor the traditional creedal statements. It truly seems intellectually dishonest.

I am working through these issues within myself. Many Christians IMHO have abandoned God the father and declare Jesus is God.

Lets set that aside for one moment, I believe what Jesus taught, I'm not so sure about what Paul said any more.

When I read the Bible, I give more credence to what people who actually knew Jesus in the flesh said than I do of others who came after Jesus was crucified.

 

[Katzpur]

It's just an analogy, Gam's. Consider the fact that the body is composed of different organ system. But in the end, they're still one in substance, in a way that they are contained in one body and you cannot remove nor separate the one from the other for it will die.... For they shall not be treated separately.

Okay then, tell me a little bit about God's "substance." What exactly is God's substance? To begin with, you believe that God the Father is incorporeal. You believe that Jesus Christ is a resurrected being who ascended into Heaven with a body of flesh and bones (although, unlike ours, it was immortal and incorruptible). How can one substance be both corporeal and incorporeal? Those attributes are explicit opposites; opposites cannot be identical.

 

[Katzpur]

I think the number of "exceptions" pretty much would cancel the rule. I am left wondering what one means when they say they are a Christian" yet does not hold to any aspect of divinity in Christ, nor the traditional creedal statements. It truly seems intellectually dishonest.

How on earth does being a "Christian" require the acceptance of Creeds that even Christ's Apostles didn't believe? I do, by the way, hold to all aspects of divinity in Christ. I believe He was every bit as divine as His Father. I believe every last word the Bible has to say about Jesus Christ. What is intellectually dishonest about that?