The trinity is false - I have proof

[Sargonski]

The Biblical Doctrine of the Trinity: A Summary

In a recently published collection of essays on the Trinity, Scott Swain discusses B.B. Warfield’s treatment of the doctrine of the Trinity, with particular attention to Warfield’s reje…

secundumscripturas.com

Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.

“O Lord God almighty . . . I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever” (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).

Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christian apologist and martyr.

“For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water” (First Apol., LXI).

Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

“In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever” (n. 7; PG 5.988).
“We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.’ Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts.” (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)

Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.

“The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: . . . one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,’ and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all . . . ‘” (Against Heresies X.l)

Early Trinitarian Quotes

Part of the reason that the Trinity doctrine was not "officially" taught until the time of the Council of Nicea is that Christianity was illegal

carm.org

Not sure what your problem is Daniel .. you do not seem to understand that - posting from Ignatius and Irenaeus .. does not show that prior to Ignatius .. we don't have any stories about Jesus wandering around in the flesh after death. Same with Justin Martyr 155.

What part of "Before Ignatius" ~ 110 AD -- we hear nothing of stories of Jesus wandering around in the flesh after death. Do you not understand .. and what part of posting from Ignatius (or anyone else after ~110) .. stories of Jesus wandering around after death .. does not change this fact .. do you not understand.

What part of Justin Martyr ~155 .. and Ireneous (born 130AD) both come after Ignatius 130AD comes after 110AD .. do you not understand .. and that if Ireneous is born 130 - he is not really "hearing Stories" until at least 145 AD ..

and finally .. what part of Polycarp -- yapping in 150 AD do you not understand .. but what part of calling Jesus a High Priest .. does nothing but negate the Trinity concept .. do you not understand.

I seriously can not believe you are this out of it .. and must be engaging in disingenuous oblivion .. Right !

 

[Sargonski]

A person can understand something yet not agree with it. Or don't you think so?

Let us start from the beginning -- as I see that writing in shorthand at times has likely been misunderstood

1) The Trinity -- is not understandable -- by definition ... its what the Church will tell you when pressed .. throwing up hands saying "its a mystery" .... there is no "understanding something" .. because the Trinity is not understandable .. the internal contradiction .. unescapable.

Let me give you and example of a contradiction in scripture .. one of the most famous and well studied .. and one of the foundations of modern theology at the same time being the rock on which jesus based his ministry.

do we A) Kill the child for the sin of the Father .. or B) Do not kill the child for the sin of the Father .. let each be punished according to his own Sin.

Do you understand that it is impossible to do both A and B .. that one negates the existence of the other ... either the child is dead .. or alive after sentencing ... .. so Which path then do you choose .. which is the path of the "True God" ... the Path of the God of Jesus ? and which is the path of the other God ... the Dark side of the Force ?

And let us now understand that to follow the Path of one God .. is to break the covenent with the other God .. and thus Jesus . in following the path of the one God .. Broke the covenant with the other God .. and there is no doing both no maintaining the covenent of both .. just as there is no three separate persons .. but all the same person ... as the Trinity would suggest.

The solution to the "impossible problem" of the Trinity ... the problem that can not be understood .. even by God .. is to come at it from a non monotheistic perspective. .. just as the solution to the contradiction aboe ... that is no longer a contradiction if there are two Gods .. each giving different commands .. each a different covenant. .. and well since that is the perspective of the characters in the OT Bible Stories .. every single Israelite and every person prior to Moses in the story .. why would we choose another perspective ... that would be just silly and wrong-headed to view the stories from a monotheistic Perspective.

Thus .. the YHWH Trinity .. .YHWH - Asherah (wife-consort) - Anat (daughter) .. makes perfect sense once one realizes that they are worshiping all three Gods together as one family .. in the same temple ... for some 20th century ninny trying to fit the story into some made up .. "All those God People are actually the same Person" .. is ridiculous nonsense .. as that is not what the Israelites believed .. nor how they worshiped YHWH .. YHWH was worshiped along side other Gods .. the Israelites believing that each was a separate God .. not that the three were the same God .. abject historical and Biblical nonsense on Steroids.

Thus -- when you read "Like US - in OUR image" the passage means "Like US" - "in Our Image" .. as in many Gods ... because thats what the characters in the story believed .. and fortunately .. thanks to modern Biblical Archaelogy .. we know the names of the Gods in the story of the creation of Man .. the God of Jesus and his Brother from the same mother ..

The trinity is a man made ideological equivalent as the sound of one hand clapping .. that has absolutely nothing to do with the beliefs of the Israelites .. nor any one prior in the Biblical stories ..

Thus -- when "The Sons of God' are visiting El Elyon in the heavens .. some kind of heavenly party .. and Ha Satan .. the Tester of Souls .. who will later become Chief God on Earth is among them .. and this God and El Elyon "The Father" make a friendly wager - after the Father is Chided by the Son .. the phrase "sons of God" means Sons of God" ... and everyone reading that story .. back in 900 BC knew who the "Sons of God" were .. and they knew the names of the sons of EL Elyon .. .. The question here is .. why don't you know the names of the sons of the God of Jesus ? ... you are a worshiper of this God are you not ? Why is it that some Israelite living 3000 years ago .. knows way more about this God than you ? and in fact .. You don't even know this Gods name .. and so are probably worshiping .. a different God .. and don't even realize it.

What is the name of the God of Jesus YT ? " Our Father , Who art in Heaven, Hallowed be thy name" -- do you know the Hallowed name of your God Brother YT ?

 

[YoursTrue]

Let us start from the beginning -- as I see that writing in shorthand at times has likely been misunderstood

1) The Trinity -- is not understandable -- by definition ... its what the Church will tell you when pressed .. throwing up hands saying "its a mystery" .... there is no "understanding something" .. because the Trinity is not understandable .. the internal contradiction .. unescapable.

Let me give you and example of a contradiction in scripture .. one of the most famous and well studied .. and one of the foundations of modern theology at the same time being the rock on which jesus based his ministry.

do we A) Kill the child for the sin of the Father .. or B) Do not kill the child for the sin of the Father .. let each be punished according to his own Sin.

Do you understand that it is impossible to do both A and B .. that one negates the existence of the other ... either the child is dead .. or alive after sentencing ... .. so Which path then do you choose .. which is the path of the "True God" ... the Path of the God of Jesus ? and which is the path of the other God ... the Dark side of the Force ?

And let us now understand that to follow the Path of one God .. is to break the covenent with the other God .. and thus Jesus . in following the path of the one God .. Broke the covenant with the other God .. and there is no doing both no maintaining the covenent of both .. just as there is no three separate persons .. but all the same person ... as the Trinity would suggest.

The solution to the "impossible problem" of the Trinity ... the problem that can not be understood .. even by God .. is to come at it from a non monotheistic perspective. .. just as the solution to the contradiction aboe ... that is no longer a contradiction if there are two Gods .. each giving different commands .. each a different covenant. .. and well since that is the perspective of the characters in the OT Bible Stories .. every single Israelite and every person prior to Moses in the story .. why would we choose another perspective ... that would be just silly and wrong-headed to view the stories from a monotheistic Perspective.

Thus .. the YHWH Trinity .. .YHWH - Asherah (wife-consort) - Anat (daughter) .. makes perfect sense once one realizes that they are worshiping all three Gods together as one family .. in the same temple ... for some 20th century ninny trying to fit the story into some made up .. "All those God People are actually the same Person" .. is ridiculous nonsense .. as that is not what the Israelites believed .. nor how they worshiped YHWH .. YHWH was worshiped along side other Gods .. the Israelites believing that each was a separate God .. not that the three were the same God .. abject historical and Biblical nonsense on Steroids.

Thus -- when you read "Like US - in OUR image" the passage means "Like US" - "in Our Image" .. as in many Gods ... because thats what the characters in the story believed .. and fortunately .. thanks to modern Biblical Archaelogy .. we know the names of the Gods in the story of the creation of Man .. the God of Jesus and his Brother from the same mother ..

The trinity is a man made ideological equivalent as the sound of one hand clapping .. that has absolutely nothing to do with the beliefs of the Israelites .. nor any one prior in the Biblical stories ..

Thus -- when "The Sons of God' are visiting El Elyon in the heavens .. some kind of heavenly party .. and Ha Satan .. the Tester of Souls .. who will later become Chief God on Earth is among them .. and this God and El Elyon "The Father" make a friendly wager - after the Father is Chided by the Son .. the phrase "sons of God" means Sons of God" ... and everyone reading that story .. back in 900 BC knew who the "Sons of God" were .. and they knew the names of the sons of EL Elyon .. .. The question here is .. why don't you know the names of the sons of the God of Jesus ? ... you are a worshiper of this God are you not ? Why is it that some Israelite living 3000 years ago .. knows way more about this God than you ? and in fact .. You don't even know this Gods name .. and so are probably worshiping .. a different God .. and don't even realize it.

What is the name of the God of Jesus YT ? " Our Father , Who art in Heaven, Hallowed be thy name" -- do you know the Hallowed name of your God Brother YT ?

Hello. I am sorry to tell you that I do not concentrate on long posts. So if you'd like to put your thoughts in one or two perhaps short paragraphs, I will be happy to read them. And we can perhaps go on. Thank you.

 

[learner Daniel]

Not sure what your problem is Daniel .. you do not seem to understand that - posting from Ignatius and Irenaeus .. does not show that prior to Ignatius .. we don't have any stories about Jesus wandering around in the flesh after death. Same with Justin Martyr 155.

What part of "Before Ignatius" ~ 110 AD -- we hear nothing of stories of Jesus wandering around in the flesh after death. Do you not understand .. and what part of posting from Ignatius (or anyone else after ~110) .. stories of Jesus wandering around after death .. does not change this fact .. do you not understand.

What part of Justin Martyr ~155 .. and Ireneous (born 130AD) both come after Ignatius 130AD comes after 110AD .. do you not understand .. and that if Ireneous is born 130 - he is not really "hearing Stories" until at least 145 AD ..

and finally .. what part of Polycarp -- yapping in 150 AD do you not understand .. but what part of calling Jesus a High Priest .. does nothing but negate the Trinity concept .. do you not understand.

I seriously can not believe you are this out of it .. and must be engaging in disingenuous oblivion .. Right !

They were taught by the Apostles, that makes their history authoritative.

What Does the Bible Say About The Bodily Resurrection?

Bible verses about The Bodily Resurrection

www.openbible.info

Jesus outright declared that His resurrection body was physical and touchable: "See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have" (Luke 24:39; see also Acts 13:33-37).

Why is the truth of the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ so important? | GotQuestions.org

Why is the truth of the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ so important? Is it important that Jesus was resurrected in a physical body?

www.gotquestions.org

John 20:26-28
Easy-to-Read Version
26 A week later the followers were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. The doors were locked, but Jesus came and stood among them. He said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here. Look at my hands. Put your hand here in my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

28 Thomas said to Jesus, “My Lord and my God!”

 

[learner Daniel]

Let us start from the beginning -- as I see that writing in shorthand at times has likely been misunderstood

1) The Trinity -- is not understandable -- by definition ... its what the Church will tell you when pressed .. throwing up hands saying "its a mystery" .... there is no "understanding something" .. because the Trinity is not understandable .. the internal contradiction .. unescapable.

Let me give you and example of a contradiction in scripture .. one of the most famous and well studied .. and one of the foundations of modern theology at the same time being the rock on which jesus based his ministry.

do we A) Kill the child for the sin of the Father .. or B) Do not kill the child for the sin of the Father .. let each be punished according to his own Sin.

Do you understand that it is impossible to do both A and B .. that one negates the existence of the other ... either the child is dead .. or alive after sentencing ... .. so Which path then do you choose .. which is the path of the "True God" ... the Path of the God of Jesus ? and which is the path of the other God ... the Dark side of the Force ?

And let us now understand that to follow the Path of one God .. is to break the covenent with the other God .. and thus Jesus . in following the path of the one God .. Broke the covenant with the other God .. and there is no doing both no maintaining the covenent of both .. just as there is no three separate persons .. but all the same person ... as the Trinity would suggest.

The solution to the "impossible problem" of the Trinity ... the problem that can not be understood .. even by God .. is to come at it from a non monotheistic perspective. .. just as the solution to the contradiction aboe ... that is no longer a contradiction if there are two Gods .. each giving different commands .. each a different covenant. .. and well since that is the perspective of the characters in the OT Bible Stories .. every single Israelite and every person prior to Moses in the story .. why would we choose another perspective ... that would be just silly and wrong-headed to view the stories from a monotheistic Perspective.

Thus .. the YHWH Trinity .. .YHWH - Asherah (wife-consort) - Anat (daughter) .. makes perfect sense once one realizes that they are worshiping all three Gods together as one family .. in the same temple ... for some 20th century ninny trying to fit the story into some made up .. "All those God People are actually the same Person" .. is ridiculous nonsense .. as that is not what the Israelites believed .. nor how they worshiped YHWH .. YHWH was worshiped along side other Gods .. the Israelites believing that each was a separate God .. not that the three were the same God .. abject historical and Biblical nonsense on Steroids.

Thus -- when you read "Like US - in OUR image" the passage means "Like US" - "in Our Image" .. as in many Gods ... because thats what the characters in the story believed .. and fortunately .. thanks to modern Biblical Archaelogy .. we know the names of the Gods in the story of the creation of Man .. the God of Jesus and his Brother from the same mother ..

The trinity is a man made ideological equivalent as the sound of one hand clapping .. that has absolutely nothing to do with the beliefs of the Israelites .. nor any one prior in the Biblical stories ..

Thus -- when "The Sons of God' are visiting El Elyon in the heavens .. some kind of heavenly party .. and Ha Satan .. the Tester of Souls .. who will later become Chief God on Earth is among them .. and this God and El Elyon "The Father" make a friendly wager - after the Father is Chided by the Son .. the phrase "sons of God" means Sons of God" ... and everyone reading that story .. back in 900 BC knew who the "Sons of God" were .. and they knew the names of the sons of EL Elyon .. .. The question here is .. why don't you know the names of the sons of the God of Jesus ? ... you are a worshiper of this God are you not ? Why is it that some Israelite living 3000 years ago .. knows way more about this God than you ? and in fact .. You don't even know this Gods name .. and so are probably worshiping .. a different God .. and don't even realize it.

What is the name of the God of Jesus YT ? " Our Father , Who art in Heaven, Hallowed be thy name" -- do you know the Hallowed name of your God Brother YT ?

Not sure where you going friend, please break up in separate posts with one point per post, thanks Daniel

 

[YoursTrue]

Let us start from the beginning -- as I see that writing in shorthand at times has likely been misunderstood

1) The Trinity -- is not understandable -- by definition ... its what the Church will tell you when pressed .. throwing up hands saying "its a mystery" .... there is no "understanding something" .. because the Trinity is not understandable .. the internal contradiction .. unescapable.

Let me give you and example of a contradiction in scripture .. one of the most famous and well studied .. and one of the foundations of modern theology at the same time being the rock on which jesus based his ministry.

do we A) Kill the child for the sin of the Father .. or B) Do not kill the child for the sin of the Father .. let each be punished according to his own Sin.

Do you understand that it is impossible to do both A and B .. that one negates the existence of the other ... either the child is dead .. or alive after sentencing ... .. so Which path then do you choose .. which is the path of the "True God" ... the Path of the God of Jesus ? and which is the path of the other God ... the Dark side of the Force ?

And let us now understand that to follow the Path of one God .. is to break the covenent with the other God .. and thus Jesus . in following the path of the one God .. Broke the covenant with the other God .. and there is no doing both no maintaining the covenent of both .. just as there is no three separate persons .. but all the same person ... as the Trinity would suggest.

The solution to the "impossible problem" of the Trinity ... the problem that can not be understood .. even by God .. is to come at it from a non monotheistic perspective. .. just as the solution to the contradiction aboe ... that is no longer a contradiction if there are two Gods .. each giving different commands .. each a different covenant. .. and well since that is the perspective of the characters in the OT Bible Stories .. every single Israelite and every person prior to Moses in the story .. why would we choose another perspective ... that would be just silly and wrong-headed to view the stories from a monotheistic Perspective.

Thus .. the YHWH Trinity .. .YHWH - Asherah (wife-consort) - Anat (daughter) .. makes perfect sense once one realizes that they are worshiping all three Gods together as one family .. in the same temple ... for some 20th century ninny trying to fit the story into some made up .. "All those God People are actually the same Person" .. is ridiculous nonsense .. as that is not what the Israelites believed .. nor how they worshiped YHWH .. YHWH was worshiped along side other Gods .. the Israelites believing that each was a separate God .. not that the three were the same God .. abject historical and Biblical nonsense on Steroids.

Thus -- when you read "Like US - in OUR image" the passage means "Like US" - "in Our Image" .. as in many Gods ... because thats what the characters in the story believed .. and fortunately .. thanks to modern Biblical Archaelogy .. we know the names of the Gods in the story of the creation of Man .. the God of Jesus and his Brother from the same mother ..

The trinity is a man made ideological equivalent as the sound of one hand clapping .. that has absolutely nothing to do with the beliefs of the Israelites .. nor any one prior in the Biblical stories ..

Thus -- when "The Sons of God' are visiting El Elyon in the heavens .. some kind of heavenly party .. and Ha Satan .. the Tester of Souls .. who will later become Chief God on Earth is among them .. and this God and El Elyon "The Father" make a friendly wager - after the Father is Chided by the Son .. the phrase "sons of God" means Sons of God" ... and everyone reading that story .. back in 900 BC knew who the "Sons of God" were .. and they knew the names of the sons of EL Elyon .. .. The question here is .. why don't you know the names of the sons of the God of Jesus ? ... you are a worshiper of this God are you not ? Why is it that some Israelite living 3000 years ago .. knows way more about this God than you ? and in fact .. You don't even know this Gods name .. and so are probably worshiping .. a different God .. and don't even realize it.

What is the name of the God of Jesus YT ? " Our Father , Who art in Heaven, Hallowed be thy name" -- do you know the Hallowed name of your God Brother YT ?

Before we get into it, there is a very interesting website from the New York Public Library system about names and their meanings. Yes, it's long and I didn't read everything, but I got the gist of it to an extent. So -- just to say briefly (before we get started)-- names have meanings. Very interesting.

Names Have Meaning: A Research Guide for Baby Names and Family Names | The New York Public Library

Like any word in the dictionary, a person’s name has meaning. The study of names is called onomastics or onomatology. Onomastics covers the…

www.nypl.org

 

[Sargonski]

Hello. I am sorry to tell you that I do not concentrate on long posts. So if you'd like to put your thoughts in one or two perhaps short paragraphs, I will be happy to read them. And we can perhaps go on. Thank you.

What kind of a foundation is that YT ? .. a belief based on sound bites ?! -- but, No worries .. I am here to help ..

1) The God of Jesus is not YHWH , So you don't have to follow the Rules of the Nasty demiurge

2) The Trinity is man made nonsense .. a hypothesis defined by contradiction in the first part - having no presense in the OT - The Trinity there consisting of 3 separate Gods .. with familial ties among a large Assembly of Gods ... and no presense in the NT (according to Theological Acadamia) .. and certainly no presense in the original story of Jesus .. coming from Jesus .. and similar to the OT .. the opposite is True.

3) If you want to understand Biblical Scripture .. and Jesus ... and the God of Jesus .. you must adopt a polytheistic perspective

4) Since you do not know the the Hallowed Name of the God of Jesus .. Might not be a bad idea to figure it that out first. It is a good thing to know the name of the God you are worshiping .. otherwise one is just pretending .. Right !?

 

[Sargonski]

They were taught by the Apostles, that makes their history authoritative.

What Does the Bible Say About The Bodily Resurrection?

Bible verses about The Bodily Resurrection

www.openbible.info

Jesus outright declared that His resurrection body was physical and touchable: "See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have" (Luke 24:39; see also Acts 13:33-37).

Why is the truth of the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ so important? | GotQuestions.org

Why is the truth of the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ so important? Is it important that Jesus was resurrected in a physical body?

www.gotquestions.org

John 20:26-28
Easy-to-Read Version
26 A week later the followers were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. The doors were locked, but Jesus came and stood among them. He said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here. Look at my hands. Put your hand here in my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

28 Thomas said to Jesus, “My Lord and my God!”

No they were not Brother Dan ... the Apostles were all Dead prior to the destruction of the Temple .. John included by one tradition .. and there is every reason to believe he was martyred .. and 100% he is not the Author of the Gospel by his name .. written ~ 110 BC

Regardless .. Irenaeus was was not born until 130 AD .. how can you say he was taught by a disciple ? This is ridiculous nonsense ...

and what part of "The original Story" do you keep failing to understand --- why are you posting from John .. which is not even a version of the original Story ?? Matthew and Luke being the edited and updated version 2 and 3. .. this at least the 5th time having this conversation .. what is it that you are not understanding .. ??

There is no "Trinity" on the original version of the story .. no virgin Birth .. and no Physical Resurrection .. no lineage to David as is required. Jesus is a man of 30 ..who gets adopted by a God .. gets some kind of divine spark .. which is actualized after the Testing by the Tester of Souls .. Chief God on Earth.

In the updated and edited version of the story .. the divinity of Jesus Grows ... and grows further in version 3. Then two or more decades after version 1, 2 and 3 of the story .. we get the Gospel of John .. which is not another versison of the story .. not a "Synoptic Gospel" ... but a completely different gospel ..using parts of the story from the Synoptics but mostly new material .. some unfortunately interpolated later .. and some in ridiculous contradiction with the Synoptic.

In John .. Jesus obtains the level of Pre-existent with God .. his divinity not yet at the Trinity Level .. but grown mightily from the original story.
I am not debating that John presents Jesus as "Pre-existent" .. I fully grant that Jesus is presented as such in John.. so quit quoting from John

According to the "Original Story" .. Jesus was a Man .. not "God Almighty" not God-The Father .. Not even a God really ... sans perhaps a divine spark. Trinity Doctrine was simply not what the people of this period thought.. Do you understand ? in ~ 60 AD .. there were no Trinity Doctrine adherents .. and on hearing this doctrine would elicit cries of heresy from all .. blasphemy .. the worst kind of apostasy ..

50 years Later .. at the time of the writing of John .. Christianity had evolved .. significantly .. The Church of Jerusalem was long gone .. the destruction of the temple now 4 decades old .. Jews were pariah's .. the author of John is very anti Jew . the Church was distancing itself from anything Jewish .. Including the Old Testament .. this Church not the Church of Jerusalem founded by the disciples .. Judeo Christians .. this Whas the Church of Paul .. made up of Gentiles - Non Jews. and niether Clement nor Ignatius know anything about some last living disciple named John.

"Original Story" .. remember You have to first understand the original story .. prior to moving on ...

 

[YoursTrue]

What kind of a foundation is that YT ? .. a belief based on sound bites ?! -- but, No worries .. I am here to help ..

1) The God of Jesus is not YHWH , So you don't have to follow the Rules of the Nasty demiurge

2) The Trinity is man made nonsense .. a hypothesis defined by contradiction in the first part - having no presense in the OT - The Trinity there consisting of 3 separate Gods .. with familial ties among a large Assembly of Gods ... and no presense in the NT (according to Theological Acadamia) .. and certainly no presense in the original story of Jesus .. coming from Jesus .. and similar to the OT .. the opposite is True.

3) If you want to understand Biblical Scripture .. and Jesus ... and the God of Jesus .. you must adopt a polytheistic perspective

4) Since you do not know the the Hallowed Name of the God of Jesus .. Might not be a bad idea to figure it that out first. It is a good thing to know the name of the God you are worshiping .. otherwise one is just pretending .. Right !?

Oh. I read your first sentence where you sound kind of annoyed...or a ridiculous assertion about "sound bites..." and then I read your last post #4, so all I can say now is have a good day and bye until I see something that makes sense to me. So bye again, take care, and have a nice day.

 

[Muffled]

not one thing promotes the Trinity in John 14 ,in fact its the opposite

I suggest you try englsh reading and compreension.

 

[Muffled]

Why are you speaking with forked tongue ? .. you believe in what the snake charmers tell you about the Bible and not what the Bible Says -- The Trinity doctrine is man made word ... that you try to substitute for "The Word" of Lord Jesus .. the word from which you now run with deflection and name calling .. fleeing from the playground to avoid the "Bad Thought"

What does the Bible tell us about the God of Confusion .. and who is the Chief God over the Eearth as per the Scripture from the Bible given you Matt 4 .. Job 1 .. who is it that needs to try it ? .. I tried it and I liked it . .. how about you Brother Muffled ? why do you not want to even try it .. why do you run and hide from scripture

Look here and don't be shy nor ashamed

------------

8 Again, Ha Satan took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
- . ------------------------------------------

but Jesus refuses to worship the tester of souls . Chief God on earth ... Son of the Most High God .. unlike those who not only refuse .. but embrace the doctrine of the snake charmers ..

Who is the Chief God on earth . and which God is the author of confusion .. What does the Bible tell us !?

I believe your fantasies will never work on me. I believe what the Bible says instead.

 

[Muffled]

I'm redirecting my previous response to Starlight's OP to you, Muffled, because she hasn't been seen on the forum for several weeks. I didn't realize that until I looked at her profile in order to find out what her religious beliefs are. I'm not sure if she will come back to RF or not. So, I decided to focus my response on your post because you only used John 14 as proof that the Bible teaches the Trinity. It does mention God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit, as evidenced by reading the entire chapter. However, there are other scriptures that also appear to support the doctrine of the Trinity.

What do you think of these verses?

2 Corinthians 13:14
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all."

Romans 15:30
"I urge you, brothers and sisters, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to join me in my struggle by praying to God for me.”

Jude 1:20-21
“But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”

1 Peter 1:2
"Who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.”

Matthew 3:16-17
"And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”

Matthew 28:18-20
"And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

1 Thessalonians 1:3-6
3 We remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. 4 For we know, brothers and sisters loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5 because our gospel came to you not simply with words but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake. 6 You became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you welcomed the message in the midst of severe suffering with the joy given by the Holy Spirit.

In addition to these verses, I'm including this Christian apologetics source, which provides a plethora of other verses in the Bible in reference to the Trinity.

What does the Bible teach about the Trinity?

I believed in the Trinity doctrine when I was a devout Christian, but I have since come to believe that it, like stories about Jesus, has pagan roots. I decided to reexamine it and conduct my own research to discover its true origins after reading some informative posts about it by another member. It's similar to how I decided to reject my Christian-indoctrinated beliefs about Satan and demonic entities after reading some informative posts by a Baháʼí member. As a former Christian, I now believe that the Trinity doctrine was copied and adapted from paganism, and I think that the two following articles explain why.

First article: Pagan Roots of the Trinity Doctrine

Second article: How Ancient Trinitarian Gods Influenced Adoption of the Trinity

Ibelieve you ae right. There are many more but none as sure.

 

[Sargonski]

Oh. I read your first sentence where you sound kind of annoyed...or a ridiculous assertion about "sound bites..." and then I read your last post #4, so all I can say now is have a good day and bye until I see something that makes sense to me. So bye again, take care, and have a nice day.

Oh .YT .. are you stuck ?! .. what part of "YHWH is not the God of Jesus" .. are you having difficulty making sense of ?

 

[Sargonski]

I believe your fantasies will never work on me. I believe what the Bible says instead.

"What does the Bible tell us about the God of Confusion .. and who is the Chief God over the Earth as per the Scripture from the Bible given you Matt 4 .. Job 1 "

What fantasies are those Muff .. sounds exciting but, why are you running from scripture .. crying out that you believe what the Bible says .. ?

The question you were asked has nothing to do with my fantasies Brother Muff .. you were asked to reflect on the Bible .. and tell us who is the Chief God over the Earth .. as stated in Matt 4 and Job 1 .. the "Tester of Souls" if you will.

Also tell us if you know who the God of Confusion is .. no fantasies please .. just stick to what the Bible says.

 

[YoursTrue]

Oh .YT .. are you stuck ?! .. what part of "YHWH is not the God of Jesus" .. are you having difficulty making sense of ?

I think you are.

 

[Sargonski]

I think you are.

You are trying to deflect YT -- some kind of "thought stopping" reflex triggered -- unable to think about the "Bad Thought" .. I understand .. and have encounted this many times - studied this response from an academic pespective - studied the sophisticated mind control technuques used by unscrupulous cult leaders .. but interestingly enough you can find a similar response in secular settings .. like the woke blue cancel crew ..the "thought stopping" behavior .. when encountering a "Bad Thought" ... thought which conflicts with cult belief or "necessary illusion"

Now .. you claimed previously that a few paragraphs was too much for you .. asked it be put into short sound bites .. which I did, but that was too much as well .. and so we are down to one sound bite .. only one Biblical fact that you need to consider Lord YHWH is not the God of Jesus !!

 

[learner Daniel]

No they were not Brother Dan ... the Apostles were all Dead prior to the destruction of the Temple .. John included by one tradition .. and there is every reason to believe he was martyred .. and 100% he is not the Author of the Gospel by his name .. written ~ 110 BC

Regardless .. Irenaeus was was not born until 130 AD .. how can you say he was taught by a disciple ? This is ridiculous nonsense ...

and what part of "The original Story" do you keep failing to understand --- why are you posting from John .. which is not even a version of the original Story ?? Matthew and Luke being the edited and updated version 2 and 3. .. this at least the 5th time having this conversation .. what is it that you are not understanding .. ??

There is no "Trinity" on the original version of the story .. no virgin Birth .. and no Physical Resurrection .. no lineage to David as is required. Jesus is a man of 30 ..who gets adopted by a God .. gets some kind of divine spark .. which is actualized after the Testing by the Tester of Souls .. Chief God on Earth.

In the updated and edited version of the story .. the divinity of Jesus Grows ... and grows further in version 3. Then two or more decades after version 1, 2 and 3 of the story .. we get the Gospel of John .. which is not another versison of the story .. not a "Synoptic Gospel" ... but a completely different gospel ..using parts of the story from the Synoptics but mostly new material .. some unfortunately interpolated later .. and some in ridiculous contradiction with the Synoptic.

In John .. Jesus obtains the level of Pre-existent with God .. his divinity not yet at the Trinity Level .. but grown mightily from the original story.
I am not debating that John presents Jesus as "Pre-existent" .. I fully grant that Jesus is presented as such in John.. so quit quoting from John

According to the "Original Story" .. Jesus was a Man .. not "God Almighty" not God-The Father .. Not even a God really ... sans perhaps a divine spark. Trinity Doctrine was simply not what the people of this period thought.. Do you understand ? in ~ 60 AD .. there were no Trinity Doctrine adherents .. and on hearing this doctrine would elicit cries of heresy from all .. blasphemy .. the worst kind of apostasy ..

50 years Later .. at the time of the writing of John .. Christianity had evolved .. significantly .. The Church of Jerusalem was long gone .. the destruction of the temple now 4 decades old .. Jews were pariah's .. the author of John is very anti Jew . the Church was distancing itself from anything Jewish .. Including the Old Testament .. this Church not the Church of Jerusalem founded by the disciples .. Judeo Christians .. this Whas the Church of Paul .. made up of Gentiles - Non Jews. and niether Clement nor Ignatius know anything about some last living disciple named John.

"Original Story" .. remember You have to first understand the original story .. prior to moving on ...

There is proof in their writings that they were taught by the Apostles. One was a disciple of John who died around 90 AD

 

[learner Daniel]

boss, wife will kick me off soon

 

[Sargonski]

There is proof in their writings that they were taught by the Apostles. One was a disciple of John who died around 90 AD

John had no disciples that we know of -- and "Their Writings" attest to this fact as explained to you previously ... points which you have failed to address.

Clement and Ignatius are important "Why" - because they are the first witnesses to early Christianity we have since the destruction of the temple .. that held significant positions in the Church and who we have significant writings. .. talking 90-110 .. neither knows anything about John wandering around after the destruction of the Temple and martydom of all the other disciples .. John included according to tradition .. and neither attends his funeral

Let us try to understand that Clement -- "First Pope" Bishop of Rome --who was alive throughout the period from the destruction of the Temple to his death 95-100AD .. never met nor heard of "The last disciple" wandering around .. and does not attend his funeral which you are claiming was in 90AD .. certainly a claim I have not heard before and requires some support.

But regardless .. who is "Their Writings" ?? from people taught directly by the Apostles ??? Nothign in the writings of Ignatius , Clement , Polycarp suggests of being directly taught by a disciple .. what in earth are you talking about ? The only contact we have anywhere in the Bible with a Disciple is the writings of the apostle Paul .. and Paul does not believe that Jesus is "God" .. and the Author of Mark is reputed to have been an interpreter for Peter . Peter being illiterate

There is no proof in any writings .. within or without the Bible .. that anyone was "taught by a disciple" .. outside of Paul and the Author of Mark. What on earth are you talking about ?

and further .. the writings from the people you are falsly claiming to be taught by disciple .. do not state that Jesus is "God Most High" .. El Elyon .. The Supreme God .. God of Abraham .. God of Jesus El Shaddai .. God Most High.

Modern Trinity doctrine would have been an absolutely heretical and ridiculous idea to Clement and Ignatius ..

and please .. don't be using snake charmer site "got questions" for study purposes nor any other evangelical site .. here is some critical scholarship on John's Gospel Gospel of John

 

[learner Daniel]

John had no disciples that we know of -- and "Their Writings" attest to this fact as explained to you previously ... points which you have failed to address.

Clement and Ignatius are important "Why" - because they are the first witnesses to early Christianity we have since the destruction of the temple .. that held significant positions in the Church and who we have significant writings. .. talking 90-110 .. neither knows anything about John wandering around after the destruction of the Temple and martydom of all the other disciples .. John included according to tradition .. and neither attends his funeral

Let us try to understand that Clement -- "First Pope" Bishop of Rome --who was alive throughout the period from the destruction of the Temple to his death 95-100AD .. never met nor heard of "The last disciple" wandering around .. and does not attend his funeral which you are claiming was in 90AD .. certainly a claim I have not heard before and requires some support.

But regardless .. who is "Their Writings" ?? from people taught directly by the Apostles ??? Nothign in the writings of Ignatius , Clement , Polycarp suggests of being directly taught by a disciple .. what in earth are you talking about ? The only contact we have anywhere in the Bible with a Disciple is the writings of the apostle Paul .. and Paul does not believe that Jesus is "God" .. and the Author of Mark is reputed to have been an interpreter for Peter . Peter being illiterate

There is no proof in any writings .. within or without the Bible .. that anyone was "taught by a disciple" .. outside of Paul and the Author of Mark. What on earth are you talking about ?

and further .. the writings from the people you are falsly claiming to be taught by disciple .. do not state that Jesus is "God Most High" .. El Elyon .. The Supreme God .. God of Abraham .. God of Jesus El Shaddai .. God Most High.

Modern Trinity doctrine would have been an absolutely heretical and ridiculous idea to Clement and Ignatius ..

and please .. don't be using snake charmer site "got questions" for study purposes nor any other evangelical site .. here is some critical scholarship on John's Gospel Gospel of John

The Apostle John had several disciples, including:

Polycarp
The bishop of Smyrna, Polycarp was a disciple of John. Polycarp later mentored Irenaeus, who mentored
Hippolytus.

Prochorus was a disciple of John who accompanied him on his preaching trips to Asia Minor.

"4. But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic Churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time — a man who was of much greater weight, and a more steadfast witness of truth, than Valentinus, and Marcion, and the rest of the heretics. He it was who, coming to Rome in the time of Anicetus caused many to turn away from the aforesaid heretics to the Church of God, proclaiming that he had received this one and sole truth from the apostles — that, namely, which is handed down by the Church. There are also those who heard from him that John, the disciple of the Lord, going to bathe at Ephesus, and perceiving Cerinthus within, rushed out of the bath-house without bathing, exclaiming, Let us fly, lest even the bath-house fall down, because Cerinthus, the enemy of the truth, is within. And Polycarp himself replied to Marcion, who met him on one occasion, and said, Do you know me? I do know you, the first-born of Satan. Such was the horror which the apostles and their disciples had against holding even verbal communication with any corrupters of the truth; as Paul also says, A man that is an heretic, after the first and second admonition, reject; knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sins, being condemned of himself. Titus 3:10 There is also a very powerful Epistle of Polycarp written to the Philippians, from which those who choose to do so, and are anxious about their salvation, can learn the character of his faith, and the preaching of the truth. Then, again, the Church in Ephesus, founded by Paul, and having John remaining among them permanently until the times of Trajan, is a true witness of the tradition of the apostles." CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, III.3 (St. Irenaeus)

After the Dormition of the Most Holy Theotokos, Prochorus was a companion and coworker of the holy Apostle John the Theologian and was banished with him to the island of Patmos. There he wrote down the Book of Revelation concerning the final fate of the world.

The holy, glorious and all-laudable Apostle Prochorus of the Seventy was among the first deacons in the Church along with Stephen, Philip, Parmenas, Nicanor, Timon and Nicholas. Although they died at various times and in various places, they are commemorated together on July 28. St. Prochorus is also commemorated on January 4 with the Synaxis of the 70 Holy Apostles.
In the Acts of the Apostles (6:1-6) it is said that the twelve Apostles chose seven men full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom, and appointed them to serve as deacons.

St. Prochorus at first accompanied the holy Apostle Peter and was made by him bishop in the city of Nicomedia. After the Dormition of the Most Holy Theotokos, Prochorus was a companion and coworker of the holy Apostle John the Theologian and was banished to the island of Patmos together with him. There Apostle and Evangelist John wrote down the Book of Revelation concerning the final fate of the world. Upon returning to Nicomedia, St. Prochorus converted pagans to Christ in the city of Antioch and there he received a martyr's crown.

Apostle Prochorus - OrthodoxWiki

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