The trinity is false - I have proof

[amatuerscholar]

I used to believe in the Trinity doctrine when I was still a devout Christian, but I've since come to believe that it, like stories about Jesus, has pagan roots. I decided to reexamine it and conduct my own research to uncover its true origins after reading some informative posts about it by another member. It's similar to how I decided to reject my Christian-indoctrinated beliefs about Satan and demons after reading some informative posts by a Baháʼí member.

As a former Christian, I now believe that the Trinity doctrine was copied and adapted from paganism, and these two articles will explain why.

First article: Pagan Roots of the Trinity Doctrine

Second article: How Ancient Trinitarian Gods Influenced Adoption of the Trinity

One doesn't have to look outside of Judaism to see the roots of the idea of the Trinity. But first, the links.

Starting with the second link, the fact that other societies placed importance on the number three does not mean that they all originated the idea in the same manner. One has to show some direct influence between the two, an influence that is more than just the same number. The link provided no such influence between the two, and instead just argued that it must be so since they all had three of something.

The first link gets the history wrong from the beginning, and in fact actually contradicts that second link you posted. Now the big problem here is that the Catholic Church and Orthodox Church were not the ones to introduce the idea of the Trinity into the theology. They also get the formation of ideas wrong. The Apostles Creed did not give way to the Nicene Creed. The Apostles Creed is developed in the 5th century, when the Nicene creed is from the 4th century. Now the Roman Catholic Church, which this article states wrote the Apostles Creed, is not officially formed until the 6th century, with Pope Gregory I. The article then repeats the myth that Constantine made Christianity the state religion, when he never did. He legalized the religion, but did not make it the official religion.

So basically, there is no reason to take any of the history they write to be legitimate, especially when they make the argument that the trinitarian view doesn't have a basis in Judaism.

Daniel Boyarin probably has written the most about this, but Judaism does have what can be called a binitarian view of God. In the Hebrew scripture, we see Wisdom personified as a facet of God. When we see Wisdom personified, it is separate from God, but still God. It's a facet. Same thing with the Spirit of God. It's a facet of God.

This idea of Wisdom being a facet of God is then transformed into the idea of the logos, such as by Philo of Alexandria. This view is directly adopted by the author of John, who takes the idea of the logos, which is attached to the idea of Wisdom personified, and incorporates it into the ideology of Jesus.

We see Paul doing this as well, by describing Jesus in terms that were used for Wisdom.

So yes, the trinitarian ideas do have a root in the Jewish idea of binitarianism.

 

[learner Daniel]

I believe the trinity is false. God is not a trinity. Proof?

1 Corinthians 14.33
For God is not the author of confusion

The trinity create confusion.

And

Exodus 20.5
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God

According to the trinity God has three I. But according to Exodus 20.5 God has only one I

We do not believe in Three Gods, here is the torch for your straw man argument.

 

[learner Daniel]

To try and make sense of a mystery that is unclear when reading the texts literally. IOW, "interpretation", and pretty much everyone who studies scripture does this.

Here is proof from the Bible that the Trinity is true friends,,,, https://www.calvarychapelboston.com/Biblical Basis Trinity Bowman.pdf

Good Nigh All, my Boss, Wife is kicking off for the football game.

 

[metis]

Here is proof from the Bible that the Trinity is true friends,,,, https://www.calvarychapelboston.com/Biblical Basis Trinity Bowman.pdf

Good Nigh All, my Boss, Wife is kicking off for the football game.

Thanks, but I went back to the original source, the Council at Nicaea: First Council of Nicaea - Wikipedia

 

[servant1]

You don't even need proof.

The whole Bible is a whole entire mess in itself.

Translating done from Catholicism translating is a mess. = Every translation with Gods name removed in over 7000 places, it misleads. The New world translation fixed the errors and alterations. Rejected by the ones in darkness using the altered translations.

 

[jimb]

Translating done from Catholicism translating is a mess. = Every translation with Gods name removed in over 7000 places, it misleads. The New world translation fixed the errors and alterations. Rejected by the ones in darkness using the altered translations.

The New Word Translation has been created by Jehovah's Witnesses specifically to legitimize their doctrine. It didn't "fix" anything, and it is ridiculous to say that the people that reject it are "in darkness".

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I believe the trinity is false. God is not a trinity. Proof?

1 Corinthians 14.33
For God is not the author of confusion

The trinity create confusion.

And

Exodus 20.5
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God

According to the trinity God has three I. But according to Exodus 20.5 God has only one I

Peter confirmed it.

Mark 8:27-29 "And on the way he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that I am?” And they told him, “John the Baptist; and others say, Elijah; and others, one of the prophets.” And he asked them, “But who do you say that I am?” Peter answered him, “You are the Christ.”"

Christ/Messiah = "Annointed One".

Annointed of the "Holy Spirit" by God.

God alikened to the Sun radiates the Holy Spirit, Jesus alikened to the Mirror, reflects the Holy Spirit to humanity.

When the body of the mirror is smashed the sun still shines, the Holy Spirit, the Essence of Jesus, still shines through those that through the mirror of their hearts, pick up the cross and follow the example of Jesus.

In the end, the flesh amounts to nothing, Those Annointed of the Holy Spirit (pre-existing) and those that are born again into that Spirit (choose life over death), Live eternally in the light of that Spirit.

Regards Tony

 

[servant1]

The New Word Translation has been created by Jehovah's Witnesses specifically to legitimize their doctrine. It didn't "fix" anything, and it is ridiculous to say that the people that reject it are "in darkness".

Its 100% fact--Gods name was removed against his will in the translations altered by satans will--You best relook.

 

[paarsurrey]

The New Word Translation has been created by Jehovah's Witnesses specifically to legitimize their doctrine. It didn't "fix" anything, and it is ridiculous to say that the people that reject it are "in darkness".

Its 100% fact--Gods name was removed against his will in the translations altered by satans will--You best relook.

Didn't they do it as per the Hellenist-Pauline Holy-Ghost's instructions, please, right?
If one is in a doubt one may ask the JW's, right, please?
A few of them if not many are here, right, please?

Regards

 

[InChrist]

I think the Triune Nature of the Godhead makes perfect biblical sense…

“The Bible presents a God who did not need to create any beings to experience love, communion and fellowship. This God is complete in Himself, being three Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, separate and distinct, yet at the same time eternally one God. They loved and communed and fellowshiped with each other and took counsel together before the universe, angels or man were brought into existence.
Isaiah "heard the voice of the Lord [in eternity past] saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" (Isa:6:8). Moses revealed the same counseling together of the Godhead: "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"; and again, "Let us go down, and there confound their language" (Gen:1:26
;11:7). Who is this us" if God is a single entity? Why does God say, "The man is become as one of us" (Gen:3:22)?”


I think the universe and creation attest to God’s Triune Nature imprinted upon them:



“In Romans:1:20
Paul argues that God's "eternal power and Godhead" are seen in the creation He made. God's eternal power—but His Godhead? Yes, as Dr. Wood pointed out years ago in The Secret of the Universe, the triune nature of God is stamped on His creation. The cosmos is divided into three: space, matter and time. Each of these is divided into three. Space, for instance, is composed of length, breadth and width, each separate and distinct in itself, yet the three are one. Length, breadth and width are not three spaces, but three dimensions comprising one space. Run enough lines lengthwise and you take in the whole. But so it is with the width and height. Each is separate and distinct, yet each is all of space—just as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is each God.

Time also is a trinity: past, present and future—two invisible and one visible. Each is separate and distinct, yet each is the whole. Man himself is a triunity of spirit, soul and body, two of which are invisible, one visible. Many more details could be given of the Godhead's triunity reflected in the universe. It can hardly be coincidence.”

Quotes from:

The Trinity

Many Christians are at a loss to understand, much less to defend, the "Trinity." Critics argue that that word is not even found in the Bible. To deal with that issue, we must begin with God,

www.thebereancall.org

 

[gotti]

Proof: I often genuflect just before something out of my control is about to happen that weighs heavily on me. Sometimes 3 times.

After about 6 years of this experiment, I can safely say that it's a crapshoot that has had little or no influence on the outcomes of what happens.

 

[learner Daniel]

Translating done from Catholicism translating is a mess. = Every translation with Gods name removed in over 7000 places, it misleads. The New world translation fixed the errors and alterations. Rejected by the ones in darkness using the altered translations.

The New World Translation

What the Scholars Really Said



The Watchtower and Jehovah's Witness apologists have often cited scholars in support of the New World Translation in general, and particularly its rendering of John 1:1c ("and the Word was a god"). Scholarly citation is a form of an "argument from authority." Such an argument cannot establish the truth or falsity of a given assertion; it can merely lend credence or cast doubt. Sound arguments from authority will consist of an accurate quotation from the scholar in question, which entails insuring that the context of the authority's statements are consistent with the argument being presented, and that contrary statements in the same passage are not removed with creative use of ellipses ("..."). Further, the scholar must be a recognized authority in a field that pertains directly to the assertion being made.
When Jehovah's Witnesses produce scholars that support the NWT, we must first establish that the scholar is, indeed, a recognized expert in the field of Biblical Languages, and that he or she has been quoted accurately. When given careful consideration, many of the scholars used by Jehovah's Witnesses do not actually constitute a sound argument from authority. I'm not suggesting that no scholars may be found in support of the NWT or its translation of John 1:1, but these are in the minority and often are not as qualified in their field as the scores of scholars who advocate the traditional translation.

In the chart, below, we will examine how some scholars have been used in defense of the NWT and whether they actually support the Watchtower translation as claimed. It is not my intent to be exhaustive; however I've tried to cover the scholars most often cited; I think you'll find that any omissions will be obscure scholars that are not generally recognized as authoritative in the scholarly community. If you know of a prominent scholar that I've missed, please let me know so that I may include him/her in a future revision of this article.

Index of Scholars

For an Answer: Christian Apologetics - Scholars & NWT

The New World Translation: A corrupt sectarian paraphrase. 1666 pages....Mark of the beast?

The Origins of the Jehovah’s Witness New World Translation – Christian Ministries International

www.christianministriesintl.org

 

[learner Daniel]

Eventually, the list of six translators became known.5 Frederick W. Franz was the main translator. Raymond Franz, who eventually left the Jehovah’s Witnesses, wrote the following in his book the Crisis of Conscience (1983) about his uncle Fredrick,

Fred Franz, however, was the only one with sufficient knowledge of the Bible languages to attempt translation of this kind. He had studied Greek for two years in the University of Cincinnati but was only self-taught in Hebrew.6
It should be noted that Frederick Franz was Raymond Franz’s uncle and one of the WTBTS’ presidents. It is reported that Frederick Franz, the primary translator of the NWT, had only twenty-one hours of formal classical Greek training at the University of Cincinnati7 and only two hours of Biblical Greek or Koine Greek.8 This information was provided in Frederick Franz’s 1911 autobiography in which he published his own college transcript.9 It is important to note that Koine Greek is the language taught in theological seminaries for Biblical studies. The normal study course lasts for two years or four semesters. This means that the primary translator of the NWT was inadequately trained to perform the task of Bible translation.

The other five translators had an elementary acquaintance with the Greek at the most.10 Together this information makes the translation of the NWT highly suspect. It is a surprise that these men embarked on a translation task as significant as translating the Bible when they had little or no training in the Greek language. So it is not a surprise that Dr. Metzger, the highly regarded New Testament Greek scholar wrote the following,

. . . the Jehovah’s Witnesses have incorporated in their translation of the New Testament several quite erroneous renderings of the Greek.11
His comments simply reflect what one should expect when unqualified men attempt a task that they are not equipped to perform. Dr. J R. Mantey, co-author of the highly acclaimed Manual Greek Grammar of the Greek New Testament along with H. E. Dana, has made this comment in response to a question,

I would advise him to get a translation other than the NWT, because ninety-nine percent of the scholars of the world who know Greek and who have helped translate the Bible are in disagreement with the Jehovah’s Witnesses. People who are looking for the truth ought to know what the majority of the scholars really believe. They should not allow themselves to be misled by the Jehovah’s Witnesses.12
It should be noted that Dana and Mantey’s Manual Greek Grammar of the Greek New Testament is a standard text used in theological seminaries today. In summary, the translators were not equipped to perform the task and the end product is evidence to that effect. Next, we will look at the Bible that they produced.

How accurate is the New World Translation? – Jehovah's Witnesses Bible

How accurate is the New World Translation? No! Many verses were mistranslated to make them agree with the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses.

www.neverthirsty.org

 

[learner Daniel]

Fred Franz Unable to Translate Hebrew

Fred Franz was the leader of the New World Translation (NWT) committee and subsequent president of the Watchtower Society, and the only member of the secret committee to have any training in Hebrew or Greek, limited as it was.

Mr. Franz, under oath in a trial in Scotland in the Scottish Court of Sessions in November, 1954 (Douglas Walsh v. The Right Honorable James Latham Clyde, M.P., P.C., etc., Scotland, 1954, (1958 ed.).p.7.), was asked:

(Q): I think you are able to read and follow the Bible in Hebrew ....
(A). Yes.

The next day, he was put to the test. Could he really follow the Bible in Hebrew? Franz was asked to translate a simple Bible text at Genesis 2:4:6

(Q): I think we come to the name Jehovah in the forth verse, don't we, of the second chapter of Genesis ... [page 34]
(A). Yes.

(Q): You, yourself, read and speak Hebrew, do you?
(Remember, Franz had admitted to this the previous day)
(A): I do not speak Hebrew.

(The examiner was surprised to hear this)
(Q): You do not!
(A). No.

Q): Can you, yourself, translate that into Hebrew?
(A): Which?
(Q): That fourth verse of the second chapter of Genesis?
(A): You mean here?

(Q). Yes?
(A): No, I won't attempt to do that.

What Franz "wouldn't attempt" to translate into Hebrew is what many have said as a simple exercise an average first or second-year Hebrew student in seminary would be able to do. Franz could neither speak Hebrew nor translate the English to Hebrew. The President of the Watchtower allowed Jehovah's Witnesses to believe he is a Bible scholar having an education in Biblical languages. The facts show otherwise. He is not a scholar. In fact, there is not one Bible scholar among the Watchtower leaders. There couldn’t be one in good conscience because of their theology and what they have done in their translation.

Fred Franz Revealed as Accuracy Checker

In the same trial, Fred Franz, then head of the Watchtower Editorial Board, admitted that he himself was the one who had checked the accuracy of the translation and recommended its publication.

(Q): Insofar as translation of the Bible itself is undertaken, are you responsible for that?
(A): I have been authorized to examine a translation and determine its accuracy and recommend its acceptance in the form in which it is submitted.

Later, Franz was asked about his own involvement in the translating (Douglas Walsh v. The Right Honorable James Latham Clyde, M.P., P.C., etc., Scotland, 1954, (1958 ed.).p.92)

(Q) : Were you yourself responsible for the translation of the Old Testament?
( A ) : Again I cannot answer that question...

Here, under oath, Franz refused to confirm or deny he was the translator of the Hebrew text. Why wouldn't he say that he did not translate the Old Testament? The court also wondered "why" and asked (ibid)

(Q): Why the secrecy?
(A): Because the committee of translation wanted it to remain anonymous and not seek any glory or honour at the making of a translation, and having any names attached thereto.

Why is it the writers of the New Testament books identified their authorship by their names, we know they were not seeking honor.

The facts speak for themselves. The real reason would be that the translators could not be checked since they had no qualifications and anyone investigating this could not find anyone to assume responsibility for the translation. A shrewd plan indeed.

According to Raymond Franz, only Fred Franz had "sufficient knowledge of the Bible languages to attempt translation of this kind. He had studied Greek for two years in the University of Cincinnati but was only self taught In Hebrew." Raymond Franz, Crisis of Conscience (Atlanta: Commentary Press, 1983), 50

Not one of the men had ever studied Greek, and wouldn't know the difference between an alpha or a omega. Only three of the five had even finished high school. Of those three only one went on to College. His name was Fredrick Franz, the same man who became the President of the Jehovah's Witnesses. He did begin at the University of Cincinatti but only completed two years. He then dropped out of College after the first semester in 1913 because he believed what Russell told him, that Christ was returning in 1914. He does not have even the most basic college degree, and certainly does not possess a degree for advanced study of the Bible. In fact, outside of the Watchtower circle Franz is not recognized by anyone as a scholar.

As M. James Penton, a former Jehovah's Witness and historian, has written, "to all intents and purposes the New World Translation is the work of one man-Frederick Franz."

 

[learner Daniel]

Didn't they do it as per the Hellenist-Pauline Holy-Ghost's instructions, please, right?
If one is in a doubt one may ask the JW's, right, please?
A few of them if not many are here, right, please?

Regards

the watchtower used a spiritualist google new world translation spiritualist johannes greber watchtower quotes

 

[learner Daniel]

Proof: I often genuflect just before something out of my control is about to happen that weighs heavily on me. Sometimes 3 times.

After about 6 years of this experiment, I can safely say that it's a crapshoot that has had little or no influence on the outcomes of what happens.

 

[teage]

I agree, I would also add that Exodus 20.5 is implying that YHWH is both a hypocrite and a sinner.

 

[Muffled]

The reason I gave is why it could have been put in the Bible.

I blieve you could say that elephants could fly but it is no more likely than the Holy Spirit would allow the Bible to be changed that way without detection.

 

[Muffled]

The trinity is false - I have proof



poster #52 The Trinity became doctrine because it is in the Bible

poster #52 The Trinity became doctrine because it is in the Bible.
But Bible was never authored/narrated and or written by any express permission of Yeshua*- the truthful Israelite Messiah, right, please?

*who was never a Jew

Right?

Regards

I believe the Holy Spirit is Jesus (and the Father) in spiritual form and that He guided the writers.

 

[Muffled]

I used to believe in the Trinity doctrine when I was still a devout Christian, but I've since come to believe that it, like stories about Jesus, has pagan roots. I decided to reexamine it and conduct my own research to uncover its true origins after reading some informative posts about it by another member. It's similar to how I decided to reject my Christian-indoctrinated beliefs about Satan and demons after reading some informative posts by a Baháʼí member.

As a former Christian, I now believe that the Trinity doctrine was copied and adapted from paganism, and these two articles will explain why.

First article: Pagan Roots of the Trinity Doctrine

Second article: How Ancient Trinitarian Gods Influenced Adoption of the Trinity

I believe listening to bahais is like the blind leading the blind.