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Do you really believe that people are on par with animals. Which animals create literature, study history, build bridges, contemplate God, and a million other things? Do you just enjoy being arguementive?
Concerning the ingesting of cyanide, if one where to choose not to ingest it because of someone else's experience (or more likely the instruction concerning someone elses experience, because very few people, personally, know anyone who has every done such a thing,) he or she is being obedient. He or she is accepting the word of another by faith. This is the definition of obedience not disobedience. No disobedience is required for obedience; a chemical analysis (or the word of God) can reveal the danger of a particular substance and can serve as the witness to which any wise man or woman could choose to be obedient. Thank you for so aptly illustrating my point.
Concerning how God made the world, He did make it without sin and evil from the start. God does not change his mind; he does not want anyone to be disobedient or for evil to exist, but as I have explained earlier, it is more important for Him that we love Him freely.
P.S. Hell is not eternal life. It's not funny anymore, give it up. Satan and all the wicked will be destroyed once and for all at the end of the world, never to live again.
Ceridwen018 said:What I said was that before Adam and Eve ate of the tree of life they were on par with animals. It is only after that that they gained the potential knowledge to do the things you mentioned above.
Ceridwen018 said:I'm glad I got yours but you're still missing mine. If you are obedient because someone else was disobedient, then that disobedience is involved in and influences your choice, therefore making a choice based on disobedience. Do you understand that?
Ceridwen018 said:He knew that the world would be introduced to evil before he made it, and so if he didn't want it, he should've taken precautionary measures.
Ceridwen018 said:Listen, I'm not trying to push something that doesn't matter--I just didn't understand you.
They were only superior in that god 'loved' them more. Other than that they were as simple-minded as animals.
I understand it, but claim that it is not required. If people would have accepted the word of God as true, they would not have had to learn from experience. God provides ample warning of the effects of disobedience, but like rebellious children Satan and we disobey anyway.
God did take precautionary measures, he warned Satan of the results of disobedience, but he wouldn't listen, he was blinding by pride. Who are you to say that God didn't do everything short of forcing Satan to behave?
If you want to see it like that, go ahead. I believe that instead, He is unchanging. He has stated His priorities, and will respect His creatures choices, regardless of the results.
But don't you see? Growth comes from experience--not from blind following! It's the difference between learning and just doing what you're told.
If god is not capable of forcing satan, than he is not all-powerful
And which of the authors of the Bible were free of sin? It appears Ceridwen is not the only one who has faith in the words and experiences of sinners.dharveymi said:Why is it that you or anyone would accept the word or experience of sinners instead of the One who made and loves you, is beyond me. Either way you are excercising faith, you have faith in sinners, I have faith in God.
Mr_Spinkles said:I would like to add something: I hear a lot of talk about how everyone, even scientists, has to have "faith" in order to progress in their understanding of things. We humans are pattern seeking animals, and so as a result the way we understand things is by observing a pattern and then 'assuming' that this pattern will continue....so for example, we see the sun rise every single day--it is safe to 'assume' that this pattern will continue. Technically, we do not know, 100% for a fact, that the sun will rise for the billionth time as it always has (it could be some sort of huge, incomprehensible coincidence)....but after billions of times, justifying the assumption that it will rise becomes easier and easier.
The difference between beleiving that the sun will rise tomorrow and that the tooth fairy exists is that the former is a much, MUCH more justifiable assumption than the latter. There is such a thing as a degree of certainty....just because we can't technically be 100% certain about any one particular claim does not mean that all claims are equally justifiable and can be 'assumed'.