The Trinity

[Katzpur]

I never said Christ deceived them. That came from your preconceived notion that I hold the same beliefs as JW's.

Well if that's not what you were getting at, I obviously misunderstood you. If He told them He had a body of flesh and bones but really didn't, that sounds to me like He was deceiving them. How would you explain it.

We actually have a lot in common with the Mormons.

Yeah, I'm still wondering who "we" is.

In fact, you thought I was a Mormon, remember?

Yes, I do remember that.

 

[Katzpur]

Okay, Jesus has a body of flesh and bone, but flesh can't live in heaven?

The Bible makes mention of "flesh and blood" on several occasions, and in every single one of them the phrase is used to mean "mortal man." It has nothing to do with some kind of inability of flesh to exist in a heavenly sphere. It simply is used to refer to man in his mortal state. The phrase "flesh and bones" is used only once in the Bible and that was when Jesus specifically stated that He had a body of flesh and bones -- meaning not that He was a mortal man (in the sense that a mortal man is susceptible to disease, injury and death) but that He had a corporeal form. It could be touched and felt. It was not "mortal" (i.e. "flesh and blood"), but "immortal," meaning that it could never die or age or anything like that.

 

[james2ko]

Well if that's not what you were getting at, I obviously misunderstood you. If He told them He had a body of flesh and bones but really didn't, that sounds to me like He was deceiving them. How would you explain it.

Christ calmed their fears of seeing a ghost by appearing as a fleshly being, while providing proof (wounds) He was the same person who was crucified.

 

[Katzpur]

Christ calmed their fears of seeing a ghost by appearing as a fleshly being, while providing proof (wounds) He was the same person who was crucified.

But why would He just appear as having flesh and bones? Why possible reason is there to deny that He actually had flesh and bones? That's what makes no sense to me.

 

[james2ko]

But why would He just appear as having flesh and bones? Why possible reason is there to deny that He actually had flesh and bones? That's what makes no sense to me.

I thought I answered this question in the previous reply. Anyway, here it goes again--Christ appeared as having flesh and bones to calm their fears and provide proof He was the One they saw being crucified. Calming their fears was an act of love and the wounds were the faith boosting evidence they all sorely needed at the time. Certainly plausible, IMHO.

 

[Katzpur]

I thought I answered this question in the previous reply. Anyway, here it goes again--Christ appeared as having flesh and bones to calm their fears and provide proof He was the One they saw being crucified. Calming their fears was an act of love and the wounds were the faith boosting evidence they all sorely needed at the time. Certainly plausible, IMHO.

What you're saying is that He merely appeared to have flesh and bones, in order to appease His Apostles' fears. But assume for a minute that He really was a resurrected being, with flesh and bones (as I believe Him to have been). He'd have said exactly the same thing to them in these circumstances. So you're still ending up saying that you don't believe He really was what He claimed to be. If He'd said the same thing (i.e. "Look at me. I'm more than just spirit; I have a corporeal form.") one way or the other (i.e. whether He just wanted to calm them down or truly did have flesh and bones), there is simply no logical reason to insist that He was pretending. I know this isn't going to convince you. You've made up your mind that He was just appearing to be something He wasn't. You actually believe something that is not only scripturally unsound, but which is totally contrary to what the scriptures say. That's what blows my mind.

 

[icebuddy]

When I deal with people who fallaciously brush aside my arguments and insist they are right and I am wrong or claim the Spirit or double down on their assertions and don't acknowledge my points, I ask them to join me in a prayer for the one preaching heresy to be put in a position where they can't do so. I do believe it works.

I have been praying for a love that is true and for Jesus to shine through with truth and love. Clearly we do not see eye to eye and I felt as if our postings where becoming negative and non helpful. Anyways, i hope you understand that my intentions are not to be rude or mean, but to explain something that we believe. (Someone that believes The Father, The Word, and the Holy Spirit always existed from eternity) i will try a different approach, and see how far that gets us...

He sure does. He even makes known to me certain things but that's another story!

Many beginnings of most religions begin with special communication. Can you see how one would see this as no different?

For example, look how you completely brushed aside my arguments on why Jesus isn't the one speaking in Rev 23:13.

Lets say Jesus did say these words as I believe, what problem do you have if Jesus where to say he is the Alpha and Omega?

 

[icebuddy]

It takes more than one thinking they have love-- these have bet their lives that they had love for Jesus-Matt 7:21-23-- but in reality did not--because Jesus taught ones proof of love for him was to listen to him--that would take--learning every truth from Jesus, applying those truths in their everyday lives--sharing Jesus: truths== so one can love, do all kinds of wonderful works in Jesus name, but if they did not listen to his truths--they lose.
But still trinity translations are filled with errors contradicting Jesus' truths--How can one learn Gods will and worship him in spirit and truth out of error teachings?

With that being said, what group of people do you study or worship with? Thinking back, I have you in my mind as a Jehovahs Witness, is that correct?

Jesus will say to some, I did not know you. However, Jesus knows everyone, so what did he mean by I dont know you? This is where we believe a christian needs a personal relationship with Jesus.

 

[icebuddy]

The trinity is a religious lie or it would be mentioned in the Bible.

Just thinking, but there are many truths that are not in the bible for example: The word bible isnt in the bible either... Is the bible a lie too?

No where does it say there is a trinity.

Trinity is a word man uses to explain a belief that the Father, The Word, and the Holy Spirit have always existed from eternity. For example, what do you believe? I bet there is a word that explains your belief that cannot be found in the bible either...

No where does it say the Father is the first person of the trinity.
No where does it say Jesus is the second person of the trinity or the Holy Spirit or Spirit of truth is the third peson of the trinity.

These are Hierarchy understandings of a belief. That the Father is head of Jesus and Jesus head of the Holy Spirit. (sending him to believers)

God is a spirit not a person.

Yet God has a personality. What qualifications does something have to have in order to be called a person? I think it quite odd to say God is not a person in whom we are made after... A person to me is a being that shows personality

Yes Jesus was a person for 33 years but He sure is not a person now. A person is a human made of flesh.

Why do you think a person must be human with flesh?

God is one not three persons. Read your Bible and reject your religious beliefs not based on scripture.

If I where to reject what i believe is in the bible, what then would you point me to?

 

[icebuddy]

Mary didn't recognize Jesus outside the tomb--because he was not in his mortal body that died at that point

The bible says that peoples eyes where held from seeing Jesus. luke 24:16 explains why people didnt recognize Jesus clearly, that their eyes where kept from recognizing him.

Later he appeared in that body to help Thomas to believe

We believe Jesus truly had the same body that he died in, thats what resurrection is... Never does the bible talk of resurrected spirits.

Jesus also walked through a locked door--no physical body can do that.

Im not sure how he did it, but i assume he just appeared. What I find interesting is that one cannot believe that Jesus walked though a wall with a body, yet can believe he just produced a body from nothing after doing so in spirit.(body dont just appear out of air either) The body had to come from somewhere is my point. Why believe in one miricle and not another is my point... I believe Jesus can do what ever he wants, he created all things...

In Noahs day--angels were coming down appearing as mortals and having sex with women--who gave birth to the nephlim( giants)

Im not sold 100% that angels made bodies with sperm, had sex, and had babies. I think the "Sons of God" can be open to Interpretation. For God did not want his people breading outside themselves. (Other nations)

Jesus was raised in the spirit

The whole point of a resurrection is that Jesus’ body was raised too. The bible supports this as well. Read John 2:19-22 (Clearly Jesus rose from the body that was destroyed)

 

[Benoni]

We believe Jesus truly had the same body that he died in, thats what resurrection is... Never does the bible talk of resurrected spirits.

Adam and Eve had spiritual bodies before they were formed from the dust of the earth and made a loving soul.
Jesus went and preached to the spirits/prisoners

1 Peter 3
18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom[1] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

When we die:

Ecclesiastes 12: 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


I see Jesus having a spiritual body not a carnal fleshly body.

 

[Pegg]

Adam and Eve had spiritual bodies before they were formed from the dust of the earth and made a loving soul.
Jesus went and preached to the spirits/prisoners

1 Peter 3
18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom[1] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

When we die:

Ecclesiastes 12: 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


I see Jesus having a spiritual body not a carnal fleshly body.

according to the scriptures, the dead have no consciousness.

Psalm 146:4*His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish


if there is no 'thoughts', what exactly do you think the spirit is?

 

[Shermana]

Complete Jewish Bible
When they breathe their last, they return to dust; on that very day all their plans are gone.

New King James Version
His spirit departs, he returns to his earth; In that very day his plans perish.

New Revised Standard
When their breath departs, they return to the earth; on that very day their plans perish.

New International Version
When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing.

New Living Translation
When they breathe their last, they return to the earth, and all their plans die with them.

English Standard Version
When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Bible in Basic English
Man's breath goes out, he is turned back again to dust; in that day all his purposes come to an end.

Common English Bible
Their breath leaves them, then they go back to the ground. On that very same day, their plans die too.

GOD'S WORD Translation
When they breathe their last breath, they return to the ground. On that day their plans come to an end.

Good News Translation
When they die, they return to the dust; on that day all their plans come to an end.

Holman Christian Standard
When his breath leaves him, he returns to the ground; on that day his plans die.

Lexham English Bible
His breath departs; he returns to his plot; on that day his plans perish.

New Century Version
When people die, they are buried. Then all of their plans come to an end.

The Darby Translation
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his purposes perish.

The Message
Mere humans don't have what it takes; when they die, their projects die with them.

 

[Benoni]

according to the scriptures, the dead have no consciousness.

Psalm 146:4*His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish


if there is no 'thoughts', what exactly do you think the spirit is?

So then Jesus did not preached to the spirits in prison???

A spirit is that part of God in all of us. We all were created inm God's image and likeness.


1 Peter 3
18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
Jesus when and preached to the prisoners that were disobiedient. What did he preach?? You are going to be damned, condemned???

 

[icebuddy]

Adam and Eve had spiritual bodies before they were formed from the dust of the earth and made a loving soul.

Im not sure about Adam and Eve having spirit bodies before even existing on earth... That sounds like a LDS belief, but i have not come across this at all other than in some fashion we all existed with God (memory or reality i dont know)

Jesus went and preached to the spirits/prisoners

i agree, Jesus went to see the people that died talked about in Luke 16:19-end. it is my belief that while Jesus body was dead for 3 days that he was preaching in this place called Abraham's bosom. (again Luke 16) (Heb 2:16 - shows these must be humans that died)

When we die:
Ecclesiastes 12: 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Ecclesiastes is a emotional roller coaster of a book, to take passages out and make Doctrine is dangerous in this book. Have you read the whole book from beginning to end? The book gives 2 viewpoints, one view looking from only mans view of things and another view from Gods view... There are verses like Ecc 9:5,6 where it says the dead have no reward and are forgotten, well i know neither one of us believe that, right? ask yourself, Do you believe that after everyone dies that there will be no reward for any of them? Go back to read ECC 9:2 where it says the good and the bad all have the same destiny, yet in Luke 16 we clearly see that we do not. So what then? The Book of Ecclesiastes is a Emotional roller Coaster that starts off with "NO HOPE" and that we all die and end up the same(Good & Bad), so what difference does it make.. Woes me... But then towards the end of the book the writers seems to snap out of the dark thinking and sees the goodness in it all... So to take a verse out from the "NO HOPE" parts of Ecclesiastes seems in error to me

I see Jesus having a spiritual body not a carnal fleshly body

Matt 12:39 says Jesus would be like that of Jonah for 3 days... Ask yourself a question: Was Jonah dead for the 3 days and how did he return after the 3 days, in Flesh or Spirit?

1 John 4:1 tells us to test ever spirit to see if its from God or a False Prophet. What exactly is this spirit we are testing? It seems to me that a physical flesh person can have a spirit in him that needs tested. Just as I believe Jesus is in flesh and alive in the spirit...

2 John 1:7 says that Jesus is coming in the Flesh and to not believe this is bad. Since all the people that saw Jesus knew he was really human, Jews always said you being a man make yourself equal to God, so clearly they knew he was flesh on earth, so what does it mean for Jesus to be coming in the flesh? I also see this as a future event of Jesus coming in the flesh that he ascended into heaven with. Acts 1:11 an angel says he will return the same way he left. (He left in his fleshly body) The man who mediates for us today

John 2:19-22 says that Jesus would raise the same body that was destroyed. What do you think the disciples believed in verse 22? That Jesus rose his body that was destroyed?

Acts 2:25-28 shows us that Jesus' body will live on in hope vs 26

Jesus who doesnt lie or use false Ideas plainly says he is not a spirit alone in Luke 24:39 and that he has Flesh and Bone (No Blood)

Luke 24:2 says they went to the tomb and the body was Gone. If Jesus didnt raise up in the same body that was destroyed, then where do you believe it went and why?

The only thing I can say when I see Jesus being alive in the Spirit and passages that say Spirit Body is that Jesus' Fleshly Body that died is now raised a spiritual supernatural body.

This next question will bring us directly into another topic, but here we go: Read Phil 3:20-21 where it says our bodys will be transformed like Jesus' body. Now My belief is that this verse is written to every believer that reads it. My belief is that in the resurrection that i will have a Fleshly spiritual body that will never fail me. Now if im to be like Jesus' body, then wouldn't that mean he also has a body like mine or mine like his... (Your answer should lead us into another talk)

 

[kjw47]

So then Jesus did not preached to the spirits in prison???

A spirit is that part of God in all of us. We all were created inm God's image and likeness.


1 Peter 3
18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
Jesus when and preached to the prisoners that were disobiedient. What did he preach?? You are going to be damned, condemned???

Created in Gods image means--- the ability to reason and love.

 

[Katzpur]

Adam and Eve had spiritual bodies before they were formed from the dust of the earth and made a loving soul.

Interesting. Are you saying that they had spiritual bodies before they were placed in Eden? Where did you get that belief from?

Jesus went and preached to the spirits/prisoners

I agreethat He did.

I see Jesus having a spiritual body not a carnal fleshly body.

Could you be a little more specific in what you mean by "a spiritual body"? And if you wouldn't mind, could you tie that meaning to what you believe Adam and Eve had "before they were formed from the dust of the earth and made a living soul"? Are you saying you believe that Adam's and Eve's body before they were placed in Eden are exactly the way Christ's body is today? (Not trying to be argumentative; just trying to understand your position.)

 

[Katzpur]

Created in Gods image means--- the ability to reason and love.

How did you come up with that definition? You do know that the definition of "image" has nothing to do with an ability to reason and love. An image is the representation of someone or something's appearance. I challenge you to use the word "image" in a sentence to mean anything else (except to just repeat that we're made in God's image).

I can think of several instances in which the word "image" is used...

Twins are often said to be "the spitten' image" of each other.
You look in the mirror and you see your image.
A photograph is the image of someone or something captured on film or digitally.
If a little boy looks like his father, he's said to be the image of his dad.
If a person is said to be "the image of good health," he appears to be healthy.
A sculptor creates a three-dimensional image of his subject.

Can you think of a single example where image does not pertain to physical appearance? I can't.

 

[Katzpur]

The whole point of a resurrection is that Jesus’ body was raised too. The bible supports this as well. Read John 2:19-22 (Clearly Jesus rose from the body that was destroyed)

I believe you're 100% correct about this. The word "resurrect" means to be given new life. It was Christ's body that was dead, not His spirit. His body died when He commended His spirit into His Father's hands. His spirit (which did not at any time either cease to exist or to be a cognizant life force) visited the spirits residing in "Prison" during the time His body lay (unconscious because His spirit was not giving it life) lay in the tomb. He was raised from the dead -- "resurrected" -- when His spirit returned to His body, giving it new, eternal life.

 

[Katzpur]

Okay, Jesus has a body of flesh and bone, but flesh can't live in heaven? And then for the trinitarians, God/Jesus has a physical body, but somehow God is Spirit? So trinitarians are Poly-spiritual body believers plus one body made of flesh and bone?

Not sure how I missed this one. Sorry. I hope you're still reading...

I don't believe that "flesh can't live in heaven." Jesus was seen ascending into Heaven in a body of "flesh and bones." There is nothing in the scriptures to indicate that, somewhere between earth and heaven, He shed his body.