The Trinity

[icebuddy]

Complete Jewish Bible
When they breathe their last, they return to dust; on that very day all their plans are gone.

Psalms 146:3-4 tells us not to put our trust into leaders of this world for when they die their plans for this world also end with them. A good example would be not to put your Trust in the Rich man mentioned in Luke 16:22-31 because when he died his plans, thoughts, ambitions for this world perish, although he continues to exist in another place. The Leaders of the world cannot help us at judgement. This verse isnt teaching a non-existence after death but not to put your trust in leaders of this world because they all die and their plans die with them. Plain and simple to me, but to say this verse by itself teaches a non-existent after death is not the intent of the writer. Other parts of the bible show existence after death like Luke 16, souls under that altar in Revelation, Moses appears to Jesus and the disciples, Paul says to die means to be with Christ, and others...

Job 14:1-3 is a good Parallel to Psalms 146:3-4 but I believe Jesus explains everything perfect in Luke 16:22-end. Paul also continues to express that death is just a doorway to be with Jesus.

Luke 20:38 - He is not the God of the Dead but the living, for to him all are alive.

 

[icebuddy]

what exactly do you think the spirit is?

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

If you pay attention our creator makes things in 3's for some reason. Our universe is Matter, Space, and Time... Our existence is Body, Soul, and Spirit... Heres a break down of how Christianity has come to explain it over the years, i will try my best to keep that alive:

Body - Our body touches material things through the 5 senses. The body is the gateway to the soul.

Soul - the soul is the part of the person that reasons, imagines, memory, also called the inner man.

Spirit - The spirit is the part of the person that has faith, hope, prayer, worship, and love.

The Holy Spirit - Takes up residence with our spirit. Teaches and helps us.

The Soul and Spirit leave the body at death (Mat 10:28; Rev 6:9; luke 23:46, Acts 7:59; 2cor5:6; Phil 1:21 ; luke 23:43) and go to be with God/Jesus while our bodies look asleep. When Jesus returns he will put our Soul/Spirits back into Everlasting new bodies like the one Christ had after resurrection. (1Jn3:2 and Phil 3:20-21) After meeting in the Clouds with those that died before those that still live on earth when he returns. 1thes 4:17 rev 1:7

Now this as is basic as I can explain it for how Christianity believes. I know JW's will not agree, but this is my explanation...

 

[Muffled]

It is not necessary for the Bible to state that Jesus is a Jew but it gives plenty of evidence that he is one. He follows their customs. He was born to a Jewish family, and he lives the law of Moses. So it would be natural to assume he is a Jew.

On the other hand it would not make sense to assume that Jesus is a Mormon. Just because the Bible never says that he is a Mormon doesn't mean it's a lie. But that also doesn't mean I can safely say he is one. Mormons didn't even exist until the 1800's. So everyone would think I would be crazy to say that he was one.

As crazy as it sounds, the concept seems the same to us nontrinitarians. When people claim to believe in the trinity we are confused. From our point of view (which I believe has a great deal of supporting evidence) the trinity was a fabricated idea adopted centuries after Christ. To us the lack of Biblical support for the idea IS a very important point. It seems like an irrational leap of logic to go from what the Bible portrays to what the creeds say.

Not only that, but before Constantine chose one sect of Christianity to promote and forcibly stamped out the others many of the fathers did NOT believe in the trinity.

So if the Bible doesn't seem to teach the trinity, and the early Christians did not believe in the trinity, and not until much later did the idea become popular and accepted, we feel that it would not make sense to believe in the trinity in lieu of further (read "any") evidence to support it.

I'm not trying to convince anyone. We all know that doesn't work (let's admit it, people get on religious forums to argue and debate, not to actually challenge and examine their own thinking). But I hope that clearly illustrates why we think the "null hypothesis" is an important one in this instance.

I don't see that as an assumption but as a logical deduction based on the evidence, which is also the case with the Trinity.

I would not; I would see that you lacked evidence to support your statement.

I believe this is an unsupportable statement. There is no way for a person to know what exactly was believed by the churches (Since there were many and not tied together in a governing body, each could have believed somethng different) because there is no record. It is difficult to understand what one means by fabricated since nothing was made up tht wasn't there except in the case of the Athanasian creed which was rejected at the Council of Nicea (Constantine did not make decisions for the council; they made their own decisions)

I believe there is your problem: both of your premises are in error so your conclusion is in error also.

I am convinced that the view stated of the null hypothesis is a correct one but I believe logic is lacking in the application of it to the Trinity.

 

[Muffled]

I never said Christ deceived them. That came from your preconceived notion that I hold the same beliefs as JW's. Not sure where 100% came from. We actually have a lot in common with the Mormons. In fact, you thought I was a Mormon, remember?

I was under the impression that you espoused JW beliefs in the past. Are you an escapee? The ones I have met in the past were bitter and anti-Christian except for a young fellow that I met whose parents were JWs but he had become a Trinitarian. He retained the zeal for religious beliefs.

 

[Muffled]

Christ calmed their fears of seeing a ghost by appearing as a fleshly being, while providing proof (wounds) He was the same person who was crucified.

As my brother in law who had to have a testicle removed likes to sing the rock song "I 'm not the man I used to be." so I believe also Jesus is not the same man that died but He is the same person.

i believe It is not just an appearance or Jesus would not have said "handle" Lu 24:39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye behold me having.

 

[kjw47]

Not sure how I missed this one. Sorry. I hope you're still reading...

I don't believe that "flesh can't live in heaven." Jesus was seen ascending into Heaven in a body of "flesh and bones." There is nothing in the scriptures to indicate that, somewhere between earth and heaven, He shed his body.

Maybe you never read--1 Peter 3:18

 

[james2ko]

I was under the impression that you espoused JW beliefs in the past. Are you an escapee? The ones I have met in the past were bitter and anti-Christian except for a young fellow that I met whose parents were JWs but he had become a Trinitarian. He retained the zeal for religious beliefs.

I am not an never have been a JW.

As my brother in law who had to have a testicle removed likes to sing the rock song "I 'm not the man I used to be." so I believe also Jesus is not the same man that died but He is the same person.

i believe It is not just an appearance or Jesus would not have said "handle" Lu 24:39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, .

I believe His body is composed of spirit with the ability to transform to a corporeal body at will, with the added ability of creating adaptations ( ie..holes in hands). To our human perception, He can appear invisible yet still be present or He can appear, look, and feel as one of us. He knew His disciples would be afraid and have a difficult time believing who He was so He appeared to them in the least intimidating and most identifiable form. He allowed His wounds to temporarily appear as additional evidence of His identity.

and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye behold me having

I do not believe this was His permanent state. Jesus was merely responding and attempting to calm His disciples fear of seeing a ghost [spirit] (vs 37).

 

[icebuddy]

Maybe you never read--1 Peter 3:18

What it means to me and other Christians who read "He was put to death in the body and made alive in the Spirit".

First off, Jesus says he would raise the very same body that was destroyed in John 2:19-21 and when the women went to take Jesus's dead body spices, Jesus's body was gone (Luke 24:3) and a angel apeared to them and said Jesus has Risen (Mt 28:6 and others). The word Jesus has risen alone should be enough with the missing body, for many thought before Jesus's resurrection that he was John the baptist raised from the dead (mat 14:2), showing a body being raised is the only thought here... Jesus also says in Mat 12:39 that he would be like that of Jona. Ask yourself, did Jona return from the Big Fish in spirit apart from a flesh body? (Or even was Jona dead for the 3 days?) Jesus says not to hold onto him showing he has a body in John 20:17 and goes on to tell many that he is not a Spirit but flesh and bone (Luke 24:39)

1john 4:1 tells us to test every spirit for false prophets will have false spirits. This shows how a person in a flesh body can have a false spirit (dead Spirit) while the True Prophets would have True Spirits or Alive in the Spirit if you will... Ask yourself how can one test a spirit alone if there is not a person in a body telling false ideas?

Romans 8:11 says the same spirit who raised Jesus's body will also live in our Mortal bodies giving us life in the spirit as well. Does that mean we are only Spirits? We will be alive in the Spirit although in our Mortal bodies.

1 john 3:2 says that we expect to be exactly like Jesus's Resurrected body when we are resurrected into our new bodies. Dont we believe that we will be like Adam and Eves original bodys without sin?

luke 23:46 says Jesus goes to be with the Father in spirit at death. How could Jesus be raised a spirit if his spirit was already with the Father at the death of his body? This is also how we believe Jesus fullfills his promise to raise his own body at John 2:19-21. (With the Father and Holy Spirit)

Romans 1:2-4 (NWT) - He promised aforetime through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures concerning His son who sprang from the seed of David accoring to the flesh, but with power was declared Gods Son according to the Spirit of holiness by means of the resurrection from the dead, yes, Jesus Christ our Lord

Jesus died in his mortal body but was raised in a new supernatural Spiritual Body, yet it was his same body.

 

[icebuddy]

I believe His body is composed of spirit with the ability to transform to a corporeal body at will, with the added ability of creating adaptations ( ie..holes in hands). To our human perception, He can appear invisible yet still be present or He can appear, look, and feel as one of us. He knew His disciples would be afraid and have a difficult time believing who He was so He appeared to them in the least intimidating and most identifiable form. He allowed His wounds to temporarily appear as additional evidence of His identity.

The difference between what you believe and what i believe is that I believe what Jesus says is 100% true and factual. When I read your post I see that you assume what Jesus is saying is not Factual, but False Ideas to ease his surprise return.

What do you think about Phil 3:20 that says we will have bodies like Christs body? What do you believe we will be like in the resurrection?

 

[kjw47]

What it means to me and other Christians who read "He was put to death in the body and made alive in the Spirit".

First off, Jesus says he would raise the very same body that was destroyed in John 2:19-21 and when the women went to take Jesus's dead body spices, Jesus's body was gone (Luke 24:3) and a angel apeared to them and said Jesus has Risen (Mt 28:6 and others). The word Jesus has risen alone should be enough with the missing body, for many thought before Jesus's resurrection that he was John the baptist raised from the dead (mat 14:2), showing a body being raised is the only thought here... Jesus also says in Mat 12:39 that he would be like that of Jona. Ask yourself, did Jona return from the Big Fish in spirit apart from a flesh body? (Or even was Jona dead for the 3 days?) Jesus says not to hold onto him showing he has a body in John 20:17 and goes on to tell many that he is not a Spirit but flesh and bone (Luke 24:39)

1john 4:1 tells us to test every spirit for false prophets will have false spirits. This shows how a person in a flesh body can have a false spirit (dead Spirit) while the True Prophets would have True Spirits or Alive in the Spirit if you will... Ask yourself how can one test a spirit alone if there is not a person in a body telling false ideas?

Romans 8:11 says the same spirit who raised Jesus's body will also live in our Mortal bodies giving us life in the spirit as well. Does that mean we are only Spirits? We will be alive in the Spirit although in our Mortal bodies.

1 john 3:2 says that we expect to be exactly like Jesus's Resurrected body when we are resurrected into our new bodies. Dont we believe that we will be like Adam and Eves original bodys without sin?

luke 23:46 says Jesus goes to be with the Father in spirit at death. How could Jesus be raised a spirit if his spirit was already with the Father at the death of his body? This is also how we believe Jesus fullfills his promise to raise his own body at John 2:19-21. (With the Father and Holy Spirit)

Romans 1:2-4 (NWT) - He promised aforetime through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures concerning His son who sprang from the seed of David accoring to the flesh, but with power was declared Gods Son according to the Spirit of holiness by means of the resurrection from the dead, yes, Jesus Christ our Lord

Jesus died in his mortal body but was raised in a new supernatural Spiritual Body, yet it was his same body.

Before the flood--spirit beings came down here at will and appeared as mortals. They had sex with women--the offspring were the Nephlim--giant, violent beings. God put an end to them and angels arent allowed to do that at will anymore, unless its Gods will. But fact = no flesh lives in heaven.

 

[james2ko]

The difference between what you believe and what i believe is that I believe what Jesus says is 100% true and factual. When I read your post I see that you assume what Jesus is saying is not Factual, but False Ideas to ease his surprise return.

Please elaborate.

What do you think about Phil 3:20 that says we will have bodies like Christs body? What do you believe we will be like in the resurrection?

The same as Christ. Able to transform ourselves from flesh to spirit as the need arises.

 

[icebuddy]

Before the flood--spirit beings came down here at will and appeared as mortals. They had sex with women--the offspring were the Nephlim--giant, violent beings. God put an end to them and angels arent allowed to do that at will anymore, unless its Gods will.

Lets look a scriptures together. I dont fully believe as you do on this, but its my understanding that you might be claiming "Sons of God" to equal angels, but Im not fully sure. To say angels could produce human bodies with sperm is not something Im not aware of. My thoughts are that Gods people inter breeded with ungodly people.

But fact = no flesh lives in heaven.

Again, show me some verses. Jesus was flesh and bone when he ascended into heaven

 

[icebuddy]

Please elaborate.

You have alot of assumptions going on when you said

I believe His body is composed of spirit with the ability to transform to a corporeal body at will, with the added ability of creating adaptations ( ie..holes in hands). To our human perception, He can appear invisible yet still be present or He can appear, look, and feel as one of us. He knew His disciples would be afraid and have a difficult time believing who He was so He appeared to them in the least intimidating and most identifiable form. He allowed His wounds to temporarily appear as additional evidence of His identity.

What I was getting at is that you assume things when im just taking his word at face value. If Jesus told me that he wasnt a Spirit, then i believe him. Jesus doesnt say that he created a body for his disciples to be less intimidated, therefore its a guess at best. Where I believe 100% that Jesus was raised in the same body that died, only now its supernatural as he shows to his disciples.

The same as Christ. Able to transform ourselves from flesh to spirit as the need arises.

So you do not believe we are going to be like Adam and Eve before sin entered the world?

 

[Muffled]

I am not an never have been a JW.

I believe His body is composed of spirit with the ability to transform to a corporeal body at will, with the added ability of creating adaptations ( ie..holes in hands). To our human perception, He can appear invisible yet still be present or He can appear, look, and feel as one of us. He knew His disciples would be afraid and have a difficult time believing who He was so He appeared to them in the least intimidating and most identifiable form. He allowed His wounds to temporarily appear as additional evidence of His identity.

I do not believe this was His permanent state. Jesus was merely responding and attempting to calm His disciples fear of seeing a ghost [spirit] (vs 37).

Have you ever studied with them? I have but the Holy Spirit would come along after they left and say that wasn't right, so I would search the scriptures to find out what they really say.

I believe God is capable of doing this but there is no record that He actually did it. I don't believe it matters much whether God refurbished the dead body or created a new one but there is no evidence that God was switching between a spiritual and physical state after the resurrection.

I believe the Biblical evidence is that this is not a permanent state for Him but there is no evidence that he was abandoning the physical state. He was seen a number of times by many people and seen ascending to the clouds.

Acts 1:3 To whom he also showed himself alive after his passion by many proofs, appearing unto them by the space of forty days, and speaking the things concerning the kingdom of God:

Acts 1;9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

"Taken up" in Latin is rapio from which we get the word rapture.

 

[james2ko]

What I was getting at is that you assume things when im just taking his word at face value. If Jesus told me that he wasnt a Spirit, then i believe him.

But the broad scriptural evidence suggests that was not His permanent state. Since flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God/heaven, it is safe to assume resurrected Christ does not permanently possess a corporeal body. We must be careful to assign permanency to any biblical statement without considering other scriptures.

Jesus doesnt say that he created a body for his disciples to be less intimidated, therefore its a guess at best.

No not verbally, but His action to eat and have His disciples feel and touch Him speaks for itself.

Where I believe 100% that Jesus was raised in the same body that died, only now its supernatural as he shows to his disciples.

I think it may help if we define the term "same":

adjective

1.identical; not different. "she was saying the same thing over and over"synonyms: identical, selfsame, very same, one and the same More 2.of an identical type; exactly similar. "they all wore the same clothes"
synonyms: matching, identical, alike, duplicate, carbon copy, twin; More

pronoun

1.the same thing as something previously mentioned. "I'll resign and encourage everyone else to do the same"

2.(chiefly in formal or legal use) the person or thing just mentioned."sighted sub, sank same"

adverb

1.similarly; in the same way. "treating women the same as men" source​

After His death, Christ supernaturally appeared to His disciples from thin air so we know His spiritual body does not have the identical abilities of his natural body. But His spiritual body could adverbially be similar in shape, form, size as His natural body.

1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There s a natural body, and there is a spiritual [supernatural] body.

1 Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.​

This tells us Christ could not have possessed the same [identical] fleshly body He died with, but He did inherit a spiritual body in the same form, shape, size, and look of His natural body with the added "supernatural" ability to temporarily transform Himself to the exterior look and feel of his old natural body. He appeared to them in his fleshly form to calm his terrified disciples' fears of seeing a ghost (demon spirit- Luk 24:37) and prove to them He was the same one they saw/heard crucified. The last thing Jesus wanted to be mistaken for was a demon spirit. Christ's action is no more deceptive than a dad walking into his child’s dark room, in the middle of the night, and calming his child's fear of thinking he was a ghost/intruder. To me, that is the only explanation that makes sense and lines up with scripture. Of course, I’m not infallible and am cautiously open to new knowledge. So far, I have not seen anything in scripture that suggests otherwise.

 

[james2ko]

Have you ever studied with them? I have but the Holy Spirit would come along after they left and say that wasn't right, so I would search the scriptures to find out what they really say.

Never. Didn't even know that was one of their beliefs until recently.

I believe God is capable of doing this but there is no record that He actually did it. I don't believe it matters much whether God refurbished the dead body or created a new one but there is no evidence that God was switching between a spiritual and physical state after the resurrection.

I believe the Biblical evidence is that this is not a permanent state for Him but there is no evidence that he was abandoning the physical state. He was seen a number of times by many people and seen ascending to the clouds.

Acts 1:3 To whom he also showed himself alive after his passion by many proofs, appearing unto them by the space of forty days, and speaking the things concerning the kingdom of God:

Acts 1;9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

"Taken up" in Latin is rapio from which we get the word rapture.

I believe Luke's account, as well as, the scriptures above and in my previous post to icebuddy, imply there is. I think of it this way. If the "righteous" angels, much more inferior to the resurrected Christ, can transform themselves into fleshly human beings, (Gen 19:16;32:24-28), then I think it is safe to assume their Creator, at the very least, should possess the same ability.

 

[JayJayDee]

What it means to me and other Christians who read "He was put to death in the body and made alive in the Spirit".

Jesus died in his mortal body but was raised in a new supernatural Spiritual Body, yet it was his same body.

Hi icebuddy, perhaps you can answer some questions for me....?

Since "resurrection" (Greek "a·na′sta·sis") literally means “raising up; standing up" can you tell me what kind of body Lazarus was resurrected with?....as well as all the many others who were raised back to life in the Bible? Were their bodies the same as Jesus' when he was resurrected? If so, why did they die again?

Where is it stated that we have an immortal soul (or spirit) that survives the death of the body? Where does it state that Adam was "given" a soul at his creation? It is easy to overlook the obvious sometimes.

Gen 2:7 says that Adam "became" a soul when God "breathed" life into him. The meaning of "spirit" is "breath" (Greek pneuma, Heb ruach) so "spirit" is what makes breathing possible. It is the spark of life that a animates all living things.

Humans are not the only "souls" on earth animated by spirit. When the spirit leaves (breathing ceases) the soul dies. (Psalm 146:4; Ezekiel 18:4) This is true of all creation, yet only man is promised everlasting life.

This "pneuma" or "ruach" never means a disembodied anything. Like soul (Greek psyche, Heb nephesh) it is used with reference to living material creatures.

When Lazarus was brought back to life, where had he been? What did his sister mean when she told Jesus “I know he (Lazarus) will rise in the resurrection on the last day.”

What does John 5:28, 29 mean, where Jesus said.....?

"Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment."

How can Jesus call the dead out of their "tombs" (graves) unless they are all still in them? If the righteous dead are already with Jesus, what is the point of calling them out of their graves?

When spirit beings materialized fleshly bodies in Noah's day and had relations with human women, they produced freakish offspring. The ability to materialize flesh and blood was obviously part of their capabilities as 'messengers', but it was abused, like free will. God put a stop to that and eliminated the Nephilim, who had no right to live.

I believe that Jesus was raised in a spirit body, as Peter stated, but like other spirit beings, was capable of materializing fleshly bodies at will. He appeared and disappeared to his disciples on many occasions, but he had been in constant company with them for the three and a half years prior to his death.

Since Jews believed only in physical resurrection, Jesus' body could not be left in the grave for two reasons. First, because it was prophesied that 'his flesh would not see corruption' (Ps 16:10; Acts 2:31) and secondly, contact with spirits was expressly forbidden in the law. (Deut 18:10-12) His appearing to them in a body of flesh with no body in the tomb, confirmed that he had risen from the dead.

If Christians today believe that they die the same death and have the same resurrection as Christ, why is there a body in a coffin?

 

[kjw47]

Lets look a scriptures together. I dont fully believe as you do on this, but its my understanding that you might be claiming "Sons of God" to equal angels, but Im not fully sure. To say angels could produce human bodies with sperm is not something Im not aware of. My thoughts are that Gods people inter breeded with ungodly people.



Again, show me some verses. Jesus was flesh and bone when he ascended into heaven

No Jesus was not-- 1 Peter 3:18

 

[badger58]

So, your sure that you understand absolutely all possibilities of what one means in the context. Just maybe we don't know as much as we think we do. Read the last couple of chapters of Job. Do we understand how it would have been a true statement, when Jesus was told to rebuke His followers for cheering hosanah. He said, if He did, then God would cause the stones to cry out. The eternal God is so much more than we can fathom while we are human. I would be more suprised and worried if I thought I understood Him perfectly. W
here would the need for faith be. Without faith it is impossible to please Him! Be grateful that He has given us faith in things that are humanly impossible.

 

[Benoni]

1+1+1=1? or 1+1+1=3 or 1+1+1= something else?

Agreed. God is one and does not change; ask any Jew??

God is one not three persons