The Trinity

[kjw47]

This is faulty. The Son was not known as "Jesus" until He was incarnate as a man. And the Tetragrammon just means "I Am Who I Am"--not much more of a personal name than "Holy Spirit".

I want you to read the following Scripture:

Luke 12:12 - the Holy Spirit will teach you in that hour what you ought to say. (The Holy Spirit teaches.)
John 14:26 - the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all I have said to you. (The Holy Spirit teaches.)
John 15:26 - the Spirit, who proceeds from the Father, He will bear witness to me. (The Holy Spirit bears witness.)
John 16: 8 - And when he (the Holy Spirit) comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment (The Holy Spirit can convict things.)
John 16:13-14 - When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. (The Spirit hears, speaks, guides, declares and takes.)
Acts 10:19-20 And while Peter was pondering the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Behold, three men are looking for you. 20 Rise and go down and accompany them without hesitation,[c] for I have sent them.” (The Holy Spirit talks and sends people!)
Acts 11:12 And the Spirit told me to go with them, making no distinction. These six brothers also accompanied me, and we entered the man's house. (See above)
Acts 13:2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” (Again, the Holy Spirit talks!)
Rev. 22:17 The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” (Again, the Holy Spirit talks.)
Acts 15:25,28 - it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us (The Holy Spirit has opinions and makes judgements.)
Rom. 8:26 - the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with sighs too deep for words. (The Holy Spirit prays for us to God and sighs. Impersonal forces can't do that.)
Rom. 8:16 - The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God (Forces can't "bear witness".
Rom. 15:30 - I appeal to you by the Lord Jesus and the love of the Spirit. (Only persons, rational beings, can love.)
1 Cor. 12:11 - All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills. (The Holy Spirit has a will and can make decisions.)
Eph. 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. (The Holy Spirit can be grieved.)

None of this supports the idea that the Holy Spirit is an impersonal force--it completely contradicts that notion.

The tetra was not in the ot where it states I am that I am--- But that in reality translates--I shall prove to be what I shall prove to be--not I am that I am.-----

The tetra is the 4 letters ( minus vowels) of Gods personal name= YHWH=Jehovah.-- this is Gods personal name.

Yes the being( Michael) who came to earth and was named Jesus as a mortal was 2nd in command in the ot as well as the nt---

 

[icebuddy]

Not true Christianity.

Be carefull not to Blaspheme the Holy Spirit by denying His very existence. I would be shaking in my boots every time I read a passage where the Holy Spirit Speaks, Feels, and communicates as a person...

Question: Why does the WTBS teach that Evil Spirits are personal but Deny the Holy Spirit Personality? I ask you to read Mark 3:29-30 and see that Jesus contrasts these Evil Spirits with the True Spirit, the Holy Spirit.

My point is that Evil People have Evil Spirits, which the WTBS say are personal
And Jesus says unlike them, he has the Holy Spirit (The True Spirit) Could we not say true believers are controlled by the Good Spirit or the Holy Spirit.

Why would one teach that an evil spirit is personal and not some power beam from satan and then teach the Good Spirit is impersonal?

 

[icebuddy]

The Father has a name--YHWH(Jehovah)
The son has a name-Jesus
The HS has no name.

The Bible doesnt name unclean spirits, do you believe unclean spirits are personalities?

every living being has a name.

We are to baptize in the "NAME" of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I have no problem calling them all Jehovah. Do you have a problem with me doing that?

Proof the 3 are not equal---
John 17:3--one must know the Father and know the son to get eternal life---but one does not have to know the HS----

Jhn 14:17 - He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth. The world cannot receive him, because it isn't looking for him and doesn't recognize him. But you know him, because he lives with you now and later will be in you

Are you saying that you do not Know the Holy Spirit? Be careful what you ensue

1 Corinthians 8:6--The father is mentioned--the son is mentioned-- the HS is not mentioned.

Angels are not mentioned either, does that mean they are all impersonal too?

The Father is called KING--tHE SON IS APPOINTED KING--- tHE hs IS NOT.
tHE fATHER SITS ON A throne--the son sits on a throne--The HS doesn't.

The Holy Spirit sits at the Thrones of our Hearts. However, We do not know all things and this doesnt prove the Holy Spirit isnt a person.

 

[Benoni]

The Holy Spirit sits at the Thrones of our Hearts. However, We do not know all things and this doesnt prove the Holy Spirit isnt a person.

God is one. Not one person He is one. Ask any Jew. God does not change.

Nowhere does is say in the Bible the Father is the first person of the trinity.

Nowhere does is say in the Bible the Son is the second person of the trinity.

Nowhere does is say in the Bible the Holy Spirit is the third person of the trinity.

Is this not what the trinity belief is?

So show me in scripture??????

 

[icebuddy]

Hi, Icebuddy.

I took some time away to pray and for guidance. What I was taught by the Holy Spirit is that we need to respect others beliefs because they hold their beliefs as true and only love can tear one from false ideas to the truth.

I normally don't waste my time with Trinitarians

Not sure how to address this comment... How would you describe your belief? Religion?

I think it's worthy of note that in going to see Lazarus, Jesus told his disciples that Lazarus "was sleeping". Then he explained to them that Lazarus was indeed dead, as THEY reckoned (clinical) death; but that in the eternal scheme of things he had not been transformed into the new "flesh and bone" body that can walk through walls and disguise its appearance, etc.

Are you dead when you sleep? You look dead, but your mind may be elsewhere, maybe a dream... i believe the term sleeping with death is perfect because we are still alive although we look dead. Luke 16 for example

Moses and Elijah, apparently, have already undergone this transformation into our eternal form, which Jesus describes as being "like the angels", seeing that they suddenly appeared and suddenly disappeared, like the angels. .

I believe Moses and Elijah are with Jesus like anyone that dies today and await their new bodies as everyone does... Jesus says "like the angels" in respect to marriage not in existence in whole.

(as is the "Trinity" baloney)

You do not believe that God is expressing himself through the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in total unity?

Heb. 13:8 can mean anything someone wants it to mean.

I believe it means exactly what it says.

As I said, Trinity arguments are pointless. I have yet to find a convinced Trinitarian who will hear reason concerning his doctrine, and I don't expect to start here.

In what authority are you coming from with this? Lets say someone wanted to believe as you do, where would you send them?

Ask a Jew"?? Ask a Jew, whether or not he believes God is a Trinity. I dare say, he will say "no".

As a Christian I must believe that Jews arent always right when it comes to Gods revelation. Ask a Jew who Jesus is, forget being God. How about being the Christ...

The New Testament is not something the Jews Believe to be true when it comes to Gods revelation. However, ask a Jew who their Rock is? Who their Stone is?

Read Isaiah 8:13-14. Jesus is that stone

By the way, my wife often sits at my right hand; but she is not me; neither are we of the same substance, the same sex, the same DNA, you name it. The scripture you quote says nothing of these matters.

What do you think Jesus being said to be the Right Hand of God means?

 

[Benoni]

You do not believe that God is expressing himself through the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in total unity?


What do you think Jesus being said to be the Right Hand of God means?

Expressing himself through the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit does not prove there is a trinity; god is one not three persons

Right hand of God speaks of the power and authority; In the Scriptures we find the right hand of God mentioned a great many times, and the left hand of God is mentioned on a number of occasions. The word "right" as used with "hand" is generally the Hebrew word "yamiym" meaning STRONGER, MORE DEXTEROUS. The word for "left" is "smowl" meaning DARK. From the meaning of these two words it is very easy to understand that God's right hand is His strength and dexterity, or His wonderful ability to do all things. The implication is that the right hand of God is the GOOD HAND of God, doing GOOD things. But the left hand in the Old Testament means DARK And from this we can readily understand that it signifies the opposite - what we call bad or evil. The left hand represents the DARK SIDE OF GOD. This is the hand of God so little understood.

A key to this vital truth is found in the words of David in Ps. 111:7 wherein he states states, "The works of HIS HANDS are verity and judgment." God is not a man, He possesses no body such as we have, for He is omnipresent Spirit; but God has ordained the visible realm to serve as an allegory to convey the realities which pertain to the higher realm of the invisible

 

[Shiranui117]

Expressing himself through the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit does not prove there is a trinity; god is one not three persons

The two are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Benoni]

The two are not mutually exclusive.

What two are not mutually exclusive?

 

[Shiranui117]

What two are not mutually exclusive?

God being one and God being in three Persons are not mutually exclusive concepts.

 

[Katzpur]

God is one.

Yes, that's right. But there are various ways in which we can interpret this statement. What do you actually believe it means? Don't tell me what it doesn't mean; tell me what it does mean.

 

[Goddess Ashtara]

Athena. Ishtar. Astaroth.

 

[Benoni]

[/size]Yes, that's right. But there are various ways in which we can interpret this statement. What do you actually believe it means? Don't tell me what it doesn't mean; tell me what it does mean.[/font]

I am a monothiest because God is one and that is a scriptural fact. Notice I am quoting the NT.

Ephesians 4: 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

See Ephesians 4: 6 also covers also the Spirit of truth

I am not concerned what it means for it is far too deep ; but I do know there is no trinity.

 

[Sonofason]

God, the Father and Creator of all that is.

The Son of God, the physical manifestation or outward expression of God, the Word of God.

The Holy Spirit, The Moving Spirit or Breath of God that carries all expressions of God.

1+1+1=1

 

[Benoni]

God, the Father and Creator of all that is.

The Son of God, the physical manifestation or outward expression of God, the Word of God.

The Holy Spirit, The Moving Spirit or Breath of God that carries all expressions of God.

1+1+1=1

Love it.

 

[Sonofason]

Haven't you pretty much conceded my point that the "Holy Spirit" is nothing more than a gopher?

Not so much a gopher as the breath that carries your words.

 

[Sonofason]

I was a Xian for a number of years, and had a priest that was a good friend, so yes, I know what I'm talking about. The trinity is a very obvious made-up concoction that is illogical and unsubstantiated.

You claiming to be a Christian for a hundred years says nothing of your ability to follow Christ. And given what I'm hearing, I'm certain you haven't.

But then again, I'd love to hear you logically explain why you believe that the Trinity is a concoction. And I most certainly would love to hear you substantiate your claim. I won't hold my breath.

 

[Sonofason]

Your problem is that so far you DO NOT have the Truth.

Until such time as you legitimately demonstrate your Qu'ran is a literal God's Words then you, like ALL the other religions making similar claims about their books (BoM, Bible etc.) in reality have NOTHING of value except your various ' empty say so's '.

It is I that has the Truth but you are currently deaf to it!

Well done.

I must say, it was very interesting following this discussion. I understand very well how fatima_bintu_islam must be feeling. I've been in his shoes. I know how it feels to think you've got a firm grip on the truth but remain utterly incapable of convincing anyone of it. And I've got to say, standing here on the outside of this conversation, I can see quite well where you are coming from.

There's not much else I can say on this particular subject, just that you have succeeded in showing that people of faith are incapable of persuading anyone via evidence that the object of their faith is the valid object of faith.

Yet somehow, I stand unmoved in my own. It's rather perplexing to me.

 

[Katzpur]

I am a monothiest because God is one and that is a scriptural fact. Notice I am quoting the NT.

Ephesians 4: 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

See Ephesians 4: 6 also covers also the Spirit of truth

I am not concerned what it means for it is far too deep ; but I do know there is no trinity.

Well I don't believe in the Trinity either, Benoni, but that doesn't seem like much of an excuse to simply quote scripture without being concerned about what it means! If you can't say what something means, how can you say you believe it? That doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Katzpur]

1+1+1=1

Seriously? You can't possibly have gotten through 1st grade believing that! And where are you getting that from anyway? Please don't tell me you're getting it from the Bible, because nowhere does the Bible say that.

 

[Sonofason]

Seriously? You can't possibly have gotten through 1st grade believing that! And where are you getting that from anyway? Please don't tell me you're getting it from the Bible, because nowhere does the Bible say that.

1 Father (Creator) + 1 Word (His Word) + 1 Breath ( His Breath) = 1 God