Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe God is one and the Trinity is an expression of it.
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The Trinity
- Thread starter Atruthseeker
- Start date
I believe God is one and the Trinity is an expression of it.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe this is false. God is always a living being. The Bible calls Him the living God. I believe this comes from personifying attributes of God, ie that God's power becomes an entity in itself or that God's word becomes an entity in itself or that God's wisdom becomes an entity in itself. ONe could go on; shall we have an entity for omniscience as well?
I believe the base is there and the Jw's are way off base.
kjw47
Well-Known Member
Funny how in every important passage where God and Jesus are talked about importantly--No HS mentioned--No name for the HS--but every living being on the earth has a name.
Trinitys twist the passage about lying to God. God asked the question-God was the seeker of the answer--he sent his Hs( active force) to retrieve the answer. So when the person lied--they lied to God because he was the seeker of an answer--the Hs was a go between.
kjw47
Well-Known Member
The Father( singular) is searching for ones to worship him in spirit and truth--not the Father, son and HS.
You can believe whatever unscriptural belief you want to.
Nowhere in the Bible does is say in the Bible the Father is the first person of the trinity.
Nowhere in the Bible does is say in the Bible the Son is the second person of the trinity.
Nowhere in the Bible does is say in the Bible the Holy Spirit is the third person of the trinity.
Is this not what the trinity belief is?
I know that God is one; not three in one or two and I do not have to defend this religious tradition because; it is what I have been taught and all my religious friends would be so disappointed with me I saw it different.
I also know the trinity doctrine was made up by a bunch of Catholic leaders at the time of Constantine and it is the established tradition pretty much over the past seventeen or eighteen hundred years. When my savior walked the earth the only thing he fought was the religion of his time. I also know God is a spirit, be the spirit of Christ or the HS and I will not limit who He is, When I say God/Christ/Jesus/ Holy Spirit, I do not have to divide him up, fragment Him; for I know He is one.
Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
1 Peter 1:11
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
Philippians 1:19
For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,
Notice we have the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, and the spirit of Jesus and the Holy Spirit?
God is one, all the these spirits are the same, notice still no mention of three persons
I have a little bit of a challenge for you, just to assess where your understanding is at: Define the Trinity, in your own words, without copypasting from any encyclopedia or dictionary, and explain it in all the detail you can.
Do you have any proof that the Early Church Fathers pre-Nicaea believed in something other than the Trinity? And I'm asking for citations from the Early Church Fathers specifically, not the Bible. This thread is abundant proof of the fact that the Bible can be manipulated to say whatever you want it to say, and as much as people would beg to differ, the Bible in and of itself won't be able to show who's interpreting the Bible correctly.
The Early Church Fathers, however, are much more difficult to manipulate into supporting a position contrary to what they believe. And any attempts to do so are obvious.
We Trinitarians have no problems whatsoever with these passages. In fact, we use it to assert the divinity of the Son against Arians and neo-Arians.
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There are many ways the trinity is described by various religious systems religious man calls the church... little "c". In a nut shell some believe the trinity is three persons made up of three God. They say this when then say God the Father, God the son and God the Holy Spirit, I believe this is recited in many prayer books.
Some believe God is one made of three distinct persons. Problem is nowhere in the bible does it say God is a person be it carnal, earth or flesh; He is a Sprit and He is one
First of all yes the Bible has errors thanks to the early religious leaders; but at same time nowhere in the Bible does it say the Bible OR what the pre-Nicaea believed, OR what the Early Church Fathers specifically can lead and guide us into all truth, that is the job of the Spirit of truth. You are right the Bible in and of itself won't be able to show who's interpreting the Bible correctly.
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.
Have you ever asked Gods Spirit with in you to open up the truths of the Bible or is that the last place you would look?
Alright, cool, good work. Are you familiar with the theology of the Trinity--the Greek terminology used to explain the Trinity, for example, as well as the relationships between the three Persons, the distinctions between them and how the three Persons comprise one God, and how the one God comprises three Persons? Do you think you could explain this, or are these subjects unclear to you?
No they are very clear to me; and your point?
Through God's Providence, we still have a HUGE amount of writings from the Early Church Fathers at our disposal, many of them available online for free. We have the Didache, a handbook for the various churches from the mid-late first century. We have writings from those who were direct, personal students of the Apostles, and the students of these students, etc, etc. ranging from roughly 100 AD (10 years after the death of St. John the Apostle), right up until the end of the persecution of Christians in the early 300's.
We know exactly what the first Christians believed, and we have their words to prove it. We know how the New Testament is supposed to be interpreted, looking at the words of those who studied and learned under the living, breathing writers of it while they were alive. All we have to do is just Google it, and we'll get hundreds of hits.
The Holy Spirit has safeguarded and preserved these writings so that they may come down to us, sitting here talking about it 2,000 years later. We have the Bible, and we have the writings of the earliest Christians which show how the Bible is supposed to be interpreted. Nothing has to be based on one's own interpretation.
Every time I've asked for God's guidance, I've always been led right back to Apostolic Christianity (i.e. Catholicism and Orthodoxy). No matter how much I'd thought about converting to another religion like Gnosticism, Buddhism, or Islam, I've always been led right back to where I was before--orthodox, catholic Christianity. I've cultivated relationships with God--with the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. And those relationships have never been shown to be mistaken, false or illusory. By virtue of my own experience and relationship with God, as well as my study of the Bible and the Tradition and history of the Church, again and again I've had the Trinity proven to me.
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Here is a verse the Holy Spirit safeguarded and preserved: You put far too trust in man and his religion and reject the spirit of truth with in you; who is the only source according to the Bible that can lead and guide us into all truth. Not impressed.
2Th 2:11
(ALT) And for this reason God will send to them a supernatural working of deception, for them to believe the lie,
(ASV) And for this cause God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie:
(CEV) So God will make sure that they are fooled into believing a lie.
(CLV) And therefore God will be sending them an operation of deception, for them to believe the falsehood,
(DRB)(2:10) Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying:
I'm just asking you to explain the things I listed. Sorry if it wasn't clear.
-the Greek terminology used to explain the Trinity,
-the relationships between the three Persons,
-the distinctions between them
-how the three Persons comprise one God, and how the one God comprises three Persons
Could you please explain each of these four subjects in as much detail as possible, again in your own words? I want to know how much you understand about the ins and outs of Trinitarian theology so we know where to start carrying this discussion further.
Read 5 verses later in the chapter, verse 15. Here are the next words of St. Paul: Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.
It's easy to throw out verses about lying spirits, and automatically assume that the person who disagrees with you is being deceived by a lying spirit. Far easier than demonstrating that one's own beliefs match the historic teachings of the Apostles, as handed on to their students and the rest of the Church.
You say I'm just following the traditions of men, when in reality I've been following God's guidance and inspiration for years. I didn't start my life out as a Catholic. I started it as a cultural Christian in a family which has just as much mistrust as you for any organized church and traditional doctrine, a family which was vehement when they first found out I was considering converting to Catholicism. Where I'm at now is the result of years of prayer, study, reflection, prayer, tears, vigils, confusion, doubt, and more prayer, begging God to show me the way, stepping out of my comfort zone and making some very difficult decisions, prompted by God's nudging. But I have no doubt that you would say the same of where you currently find yourself, and I truly do respect that.
I find it funny that one person who claims to be inspired solely by the Holy Spirit comes up with doctrines that are completely opposite of another person who claims the same thing. How can we tell who's being deceived by a lying spirit, and who's being inspired by the Holy Spirit? We both agree that the Bible can't prove who's right, and anyone can claim to be inspired by the Holy Spirit. How can we objectively tell who's right and who's wrong, if neither the Bible nor claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit will work?
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This is good. By the way my Grandfather was Greek and studied to be a Greek Orthadox Priest.
First point is tradition: There are two sides to every coin:
Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
I am a very spiritual person and do not look at the Bible as the letter that killeth, but instead as the spirit quickens. 2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
So many of Gods people cannot see what is beyond the letter that killeth; such a strong word killeth given to describe what happens when you use you carnalize, literalize your understanding when interpreting scripture. So much doom and gloom in Traditional Christianity;
Are we destroying, slaying, and killing Gods Word when we refuse to allow Gods Spirit to give it life. Is not the spirit of truth with in us; but is that what we are following when all we see is the negative. Gods Spirit is in all of us, we have gone way to accustom to hearing man; and not The Spirit of truth with in.
Killeth: NT:615 apokteino (ap-ok-ti'-no); from NT:575 and kteino (to slay); to kill outright; figuratively, to destroy:
2 Corinthians 3:1Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory
^I'mma be responding next week, when I'm back home and with my laptop. Until then!
Understood
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
The bible is part and parcel of "man and his religion, though. If you can't trust "man and his religion," how, then, can you trust the bible?
Man follows religion and yes the letter of the Bible, but what i trust is what the spirit has quicken, I trust the Spirit of God with in me; not the 50,000 religions
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
I find this is devine, but the letter is full of man made errors
I would say that doom and gloom only exists in the Western forms of Christianity, and most particularly Protestant/Calvinist Christianity. If your grandfather was an Orthodox priest(or at least a seminarian), then you are surely aware of the fact that Orthodox Christianity is far from being a "doom and gloom" religion? And surely you are aware that the Apostolic forms of Christianity don't just look at the dead letter, but at the living Spirit behind the letter--hence the entire reason why we believe in the Trinity, of God becoming man to redeem and reconcile us to Himself?