The Trinity

[Benoni]

Well I don't believe in the Trinity either, Benoni, but that doesn't seem like much of an excuse to simply quote scripture without being concerned about what it means! If you can't say what something means, how can you say you believe it? That doesn't make sense to me.

There are certain mysteries I have not discovered in scripture. So to invent a half truth like I see people believing on these forums I stand on what I know.

Where do you stand?

I am pretty versed on this subject and have heard I am sure about as many arguments that are out there. I know God is one. The Holy Spirit is also God's Spirit with in us.
Jesus is also God BUT much like the Holy Spirit with a temporary earthy mission to destroy sin and death and to reverse the crse of Adam. Just because Jesus walked the earthy body does not mean all of God left his glory in the heavenlies.

Then we have Adam who to was a son of God ordained to fall, as Jesus was ordained to overcome.

There are some deep hidden spiritual hidden mysteries to this question and I am not ready to make this a dogma like the false doctrine of the trinity. I do agree with Sonofason about his mathematic equation of course this is very simplified and all of these factors have many other factors but for a simple equation it works for me.

1 Father (Creator) + 1 Word (His Word) + 1 Breath ( His Breath) = 1 God

 

[icebuddy]

No personal thoughts here. Just interpreting what I see in the Greek.

As soon as you "interpret" you are using personal thoughts to do so. Im not trying to be rude, just pointing out. (we all do it from time to time) Im just saying that Jesus's words should always Trump any personal interpretation.

The conjunctive phrase "flesh and blood" suggests if one or both conditions exist, one cannot inherit the kingdom of God. After His resurrection and glorification, Jesus appeared to the disciples in fleshly form. Thus He could not "permanently" be composed of mortal flesh but of immortal spirit. This is confirmed by an objective translation of 1 Pe 3:18:

Im not sure if you ever answered my question about where did Jesus's body go if he wasnt using it?

I would also like to ask you the question: Why do you think Jesus used the words "Flesh and Bone" and not Flesh and Blood when he appeared to the disciples? Do you think there is a clear difference between the two?

1Pe_3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to [tO] God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the [tO] Spirit,

I see this as Jesus dieing and then being resurrected by the Holy Spirit. many Experts in the language agree with this.

​

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to [tO] God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive to [tO] spirit,

I see your thought here, but Jesus said he would raise his Body at John 2:19-21. You know what i think of Jesus trumping other ideas... What do you think?

Also 1 John 4:1 and 2 john 1:7 issue warnings of teachers that teach Jesus coming in anything but the flesh. Never do we see a warning saying that false teachers will teach Jesus is or has come in the Flesh. We believe Jesus left in the Flesh and Bone body and is coming in that same body again. Acts 1:11 Did Jesus ascend in his Body or as a Spirit? Also, I have a hard time understanding a resurrected Spirit... Jesus was already a Spirit at death when he died and went to be with the Father. He even preached to the Dead peoples spirits in prison. 1 Peter 3:19 which shows people die and become spirits in someway as Jesus speaks about in Luke 16:22-end. Do you at least see my thoughts on this...
​

Hence confirming, from the original Greek, Christ's body was resurrected to spirit-- not flesh.

My thoughts are that Jesus disagrees with you and says otherwise. i also see no reason to believe Spirits are in need of resurrection for they are already spirits(needing bodies) as Jesus tells us in Luke 16 and confirmed when he visits them in 1Peter 3:19. How can Jesus visit Spirits in prison before they are resurrected if resurrection means a spiritual resurrection only? Doesnt make sense... Who do you think these spirits are? Read Heb 2:16 before you answer.

As I've pointed out, other passages inform us His spirit body came with the ability to make adaptations as necessary.

The Other passages do not mean he is a spirit without a body.

 

[kjw47]

God, the Father and Creator of all that is.

The Son of God, the physical manifestation or outward expression of God, the Word of God.

The Holy Spirit, The Moving Spirit or Breath of God that carries all expressions of God.

1+1+1=1

Trinity god was created at Catholicism councils--there is much proof. But the only proof one needs is Jesus' truths and he clearly taught at John 17:1-6--the one who sent him( Father-John 5:30) is THE ONLY TRUE GOD. verse 6 = YHWH(Jehovah)
Paul backed up this truth at 1 cor 8:6 like Mr. Benoni shared with you.

Either Jesus and Paul lied or the trinity is a lie--we all must choose who we believe.

trinity translations are filled with errors trying to make up a trinity.

 

[Shiranui117]

There are certain mysteries I have not discovered in scripture. So to invent a half truth like I see people believing on these forums I stand on what I know.

Where do you stand?

I am pretty versed on this subject and have heard I am sure about as many arguments that are out there. I know God is one. The Holy Spirit is also God's Spirit with in us.
Jesus is also God BUT much like the Holy Spirit with a temporary earthy mission to destroy sin and death and to reverse the crse of Adam. Just because Jesus walked the earthy body does not mean all of God left his glory in the heavenlies.

Then we have Adam who to was a son of God ordained to fall, as Jesus was ordained to overcome.

There are some deep hidden spiritual hidden mysteries to this question and I am not ready to make this a dogma like the false doctrine of the trinity. I do agree with Sonofason about his mathematic equation of course this is very simplified and all of these factors have many other factors but for a simple equation it works for me.

1 Father (Creator) + 1 Word (His Word) + 1 Breath ( His Breath) = 1 God

If you acknowledge that there are deep, hidden spiritual mysteries to this question, then how can you be so sure that the doctrine of the Trinity isn't one of those mysteries you haven't yet discovered? How can you be so sure that the Trinity is false if you admit that there are mysteries which remain hidden to you?

 

[Shiranui117]

Trinity god was created at Catholicism councils--there is much proof. But the only proof one needs is Jesus' truths and he clearly taught at John 17:1-6--the one who sent him( Father-John 5:30) is THE ONLY TRUE GOD. verse 6 = YHWH(Jehovah)
Paul backed up this truth at 1 cor 8:6 like Mr. Benoni shared with you.

Either Jesus and Paul lied or the trinity is a lie--we all must choose who we believe.

trinity translations are filled with errors trying to make up a trinity.

Do some research on Church history and the Fathers. The Trinity wasn't invented at Nicaea. It was believed long before that.

The "Either Jesus and Paul lied or the Trinity is a lie" dichotomy is one that betrays massive ignorance of early Christian beliefs as evidenced by the abundant writings of the Early Church, going from the lifetime of the Apostles in an unbroken line of consistent teaching to the Ecumenical Councils to today.

I'm happy to pull up a smorgasbord of authentic citations from the Apostolic Fathers that assert the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all God. I can start with St. Ignatius of Antioch (the third bishop of Antioch, second bishop of the church after St. Peter, who founded the church there), who was martyred 10-20 years after the death of his personal teacher, St. John the Apostle and Evangelist, who gave us an absolute abundance of quotations referring to Jesus as God and asserting His Divinity.

 

[Sonofason]

Trinity god was created at Catholicism councils--there is much proof. But the only proof one needs is Jesus' truths and he clearly taught at John 17:1-6--the one who sent him( Father-John 5:30) is THE ONLY TRUE GOD. verse 6 = YHWH(Jehovah)
Paul backed up this truth at 1 cor 8:6 like Mr. Benoni shared with you.

Either Jesus and Paul lied or the trinity is a lie--we all must choose who we believe.

trinity translations are filled with errors trying to make up a trinity.

All human understanding of God is filled with errors.

I believe in One God. I cannot tell you what God is. And I do not believe that anyone can. I have an extremely limited understanding God, His Son, and the Holy Spirit. I can perceive them as three distinct entities, yet at the time recognize that they are one in the same entity.

Imagine I were speaking to someone on the telephone and you could hear the voice of the person I was speaking to. You may perceive that the voice coming through the telephone sounds familiar to you, and so ask me, "who is that?"

So wait a minute. You hear a voice, and you ask who the voice is? Is this not very strange? It's a voice you hear. A voice doesn't have a name, does it? I do not answer, "Oh it's the voice of John". I say "it's John." You understand that it is John's voice you hear. But you perceive that the voice is John. Which is it? Is the voice John? Or is it John's voice you hear? You must realize, assuming no significant change in the nature of John or in John's voice, that John and his voice are, in a sense, one in the same. If you hear John's voice, it is John that you hear.

Anyway. I don't know if this solves anything or not. We'll just call it a side note, or maybe perhaps it's just a distraction.

The Word of God comes from God. It belongs to God. It is a manifestation, if you will, of God. It is not God, but it is God. How do we get a firm grasp on such an idea, and on such a truth? I don't think we can. I think it's somewhat beyond our comprehension. We can come to terms with it, and go about as if we understand, but surely, we don't. We can't. Can God forgive us for not understanding Him as well as He understands Himself?

 

[icebuddy]

Trinity god was created at Catholicism councils--there is much proof.

The word Trinity was developed to express a belief that already existed since Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord and My God" and Jesus didnt rebuke him, but said blessed are those who dont see and believe as you do. There where Bad ideas creeping into the church and they developed creeds and words for people to correctly understand and not get lost.

But the only proof one needs is Jesus' truths and he clearly taught at John 17:1-6--the one who sent him( Father-John 5:30) is THE ONLY TRUE GOD. verse 6 = YHWH(Jehovah)

Half Quote here because it reads, "The only True God and Jesus Christ". The Word "and" is "Kai" and isnt a separating word but carries the meaning of "with or Also". (look it up for yourself) One could read this as Jehovah is God and Savior. Would you read that and think Jehovah is God and not Savior?

Paul backed up this truth at 1 cor 8:6 like Mr. Benoni shared with you.

One Lord One God? Some People have used this to say Jesus isnt God yet they totally ignore that is also says One Lord, Jesus, meaning Jehovah cannot be Lord with their same thought process. You must ask yourself, Is the Father Lord? If you answer is yes, then your whole idea of what you just said and thought is wrong about Jesus not being God or Theos as well.

Context is showing us that none of these other gods matter or even really exist. Because to us there is one system of belief. That System is said over and over to be Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in a Hierarchy. Paul doesnt stop there either, he says everything is through Jesus and thats how we exist. You cannot separate Jesus from God or you have a created being that fails in comparison.

Either Jesus and Paul lied or the trinity is a lie--we all must choose who we believe.

You only Half quoted the passage. Stopping before it said "AND JESUS". Why did you do this? Dont forget to look up the Greek word "AND" to see it means "ALSO"

trinity translations are filled with errors trying to make up a trinity.

Who told you that? I can show you that even the NWT which I believe has been altered, missed a bunch of passages and still shows Jesus as God. Not to be rude, but the NWT is full of inserted words that change the meaning of the text. They even added Bracket at times because they couldnt deny this fact. However, if you own a Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures (WTBS book), I suggest reading the Left part of the bible before looking at the NWT rendering. Many JW have changed their minds after reading this book.

 

[Benoni]

If you acknowledge that there are deep, hidden spiritual mysteries to this question, then how can you be so sure that the doctrine of the Trinity isn't one of those mysteries you haven't yet discovered? How can you be so sure that the Trinity is false if you admit that there are mysteries which remain hidden to you?

Because these deep hidden mysteries are based on the Word of God.

Nowhere in does is say in the Bible the Father is the first person of the trinity.
Nowhere in does is say in the Bible the Son is the second person of the trinity.
Nowhere in does is say in the Bible the Holy Spirit is the third person of the trinity.

 

[Shiranui117]

Because these deep hidden mysteries are based on the Word of God.

Nowhere in does is say in the Bible the Father is the first person of the trinity.
Nowhere in does is say in the Bible the Son is the second person of the trinity.
Nowhere in does is say in the Bible the Holy Spirit is the third person of the trinity.

But nowhere in the Bible does it talk about evolution or the Big Bang. Are these two things false, then, because they're not mentioned in the Bible? Are you a Sola Scripturist?

And there are also places in the Scriptures that deny the Resurrection of the dead and assert the eternality of death, and other, later places in Scripture where the Resurrection is upheld. Go figure that one...

If you want to know the correct way to interpret the Bible, you need an external means of evaluating and interpreting the Bible. Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and members of the Assyrian Church of the East all use the Apostolic Tradition to this end. The Apostolic Tradition consists of the oral and written teachings of the Apostles (see 2 Thessalonians 2:15), the written teachings being the Bible. But you can only correctly interpret the Bible--the written part of the Apostolic Tradition--if you compare it to the oral part, which consists of the sermons, homilies, teachings and lives of the students of the Apostles (the Apostolic Fathers), and the students of these students, and so on, in an unbroken, unchanged line of teaching down to the present day.

In short, no one believed Sola Scriptura before the 1500's, and it definitely wasn't held to in the Early Church--because the books of the New Testament wouldn't even be considered Scripture until the time of the Ecumenical Councils, the Councils which people say "invented" the Trinity!

So somehow, the Church manages to mess up on the Trinity, how the Church should run, the respect that's due to Mary and the Saints, praying for the dead and asking the dead to pray for us, having formal Liturgies, etc, etc... but still somehow manages to correctly create and compile the canon of Scripture... Is that pretty much what the argument here is?

 

[kjw47]

All human understanding of God is filled with errors.

I believe in One God. I cannot tell you what God is. And I do not believe that anyone can. I have an extremely limited understanding God, His Son, and the Holy Spirit. I can perceive them as three distinct entities, yet at the time recognize that they are one in the same entity.

Imagine I were speaking to someone on the telephone and you could hear the voice of the person I was speaking to. You may perceive that the voice coming through the telephone sounds familiar to you, and so ask me, "who is that?"

So wait a minute. You hear a voice, and you ask who the voice is? Is this not very strange? It's a voice you hear. A voice doesn't have a name, does it? I do not answer, "Oh it's the voice of John". I say "it's John." You understand that it is John's voice you hear. But you perceive that the voice is John. Which is it? Is the voice John? Or is it John's voice you hear? You must realize, assuming no significant change in the nature of John or in John's voice, that John and his voice are, in a sense, one in the same. If you hear John's voice, it is John that you hear.

Anyway. I don't know if this solves anything or not. We'll just call it a side note, or maybe perhaps it's just a distraction.

The Word of God comes from God. It belongs to God. It is a manifestation, if you will, of God. It is not God, but it is God. How do we get a firm grasp on such an idea, and on such a truth? I don't think we can. I think it's somewhat beyond our comprehension. We can come to terms with it, and go about as if we understand, but surely, we don't. We can't. Can God forgive us for not understanding Him as well as He understands Himself?

One can believe as you do--or believe Jesus--John 20:17, rev 3:12

 

[Sonofason]

One can believe as you do--or believe Jesus--John 20:17, rev 3:12

Please remind me what I believe.

 

[james2ko]

As soon as you "interpret" you are using personal thoughts to do so. Im not trying to be rude, just pointing out. (we all do it from time to time) Im just saying that Jesus's words should always Trump any personal interpretation.

Im not sure if you ever answered my question about where did Jesus's body go if he wasnt using it?

I would also like to ask you the question: Why do you think Jesus used the words "Flesh and Bone" and not Flesh and Blood when he appeared to the disciples? Do you think there is a clear difference between the two?

I see this as Jesus dieing and then being resurrected by the Holy Spirit. many Experts in the language agree with this.

​

I see your thought here, but Jesus said he would raise his Body at John 2:19-21. You know what i think of Jesus trumping other ideas... What do you think?

Also 1 John 4:1 and 2 john 1:7 issue warnings of teachers that teach Jesus coming in anything but the flesh. Never do we see a warning saying that false teachers will teach Jesus is or has come in the Flesh. We believe Jesus left in the Flesh and Bone body and is coming in that same body again. Acts 1:11 Did Jesus ascend in his Body or as a Spirit? Also, I have a hard time understanding a resurrected Spirit... Jesus was already a Spirit at death when he died and went to be with the Father. He even preached to the Dead peoples spirits in prison. 1 Peter 3:19 which shows people die and become spirits in someway as Jesus speaks about in Luke 16:22-end. Do you at least see my thoughts on this...
​

My thoughts are that Jesus disagrees with you and says otherwise. i also see no reason to believe Spirits are in need of resurrection for they are already spirits(needing bodies) as Jesus tells us in Luke 16 and confirmed when he visits them in 1Peter 3:19. How can Jesus visit Spirits in prison before they are resurrected if resurrection means a spiritual resurrection only? Doesnt make sense... Who do you think these spirits are? Read Heb 2:16 before you answer.

The Other passages do not mean he is a spirit without a body.

Let me ask you this: Are angels composed of spirit or are they flesh and bone?

 

[kjw47]

Please remind me what I believe.

a trinity god.

Post 2166

 

[Sonofason]

a trinity god.

Post 2166

Please define a "trinity god"

 

[kjw47]

Please define a "trinity god"

Something made up by Babylonian religions way back. So in reality-- non existent.

 

[Shiranui117]

The tetra was not in the ot where it states I am that I am--- But that in reality translates--I shall prove to be what I shall prove to be--not I am that I am.-----

The tetra is the 4 letters ( minus vowels) of Gods personal name= YHWH=Jehovah.-- this is Gods personal name.

Nice little side-note. But it still doesn't refute the idea that God's "personal name" is little more than a statement--"I shall prove to be what I shall prove to be."

Yes the being( Michael) who came to earth and was named Jesus as a mortal was 2nd in command in the ot as well as the nt---

Except, Jesus isn't the Archangel Michael, nor is there any evidence for this...

And you still haven't refuted the fact that Scripture attributes Personhood to the Holy Spirit...

 

[Shiranui117]

Something made up by Babylonian religions way back. So in reality-- non existent.

"Something" isn't very specific... Care to try and actually define a "trinity god"?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Something made up by Babylonian religions way back. So in reality-- non existent.

Wrong. No religion has or had the same concept of the Holy Trinity that Christianity does.

 

[Sonofason]

Something made up by Babylonian religions way back. So in reality-- non existent.

That's not a definition. Shall I explain what it means to define a word?

 

[Muffled]

No Jesus was not-- 1 Peter 3:18

I believe there is a dispensational problem. ie Jesus was in a spiritual state after His death but the dispensation for that ended when He was resurrected. I believe the First Peter reference does not address the resurrection so one may not draw conclusions about the resurrection from it.