The Trinity

[Muffled]

Funny how in every important passage where God and Jesus are talked about importantly--No HS mentioned--No name for the HS--but every living being on the earth has a name.
Trinitys twist the passage about lying to God. God asked the question-God was the seeker of the answer--he sent his Hs( active force) to retrieve the answer. So when the person lied--they lied to God because he was the seeker of an answer--the Hs was a go between.

This is the null hypothesis; I believe there is no need to mention the HS until it is time for the HS.

I believe the name of the HS is Jesus.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Trinitarians do not twist passages as JW's do.

 

[Muffled]

The Father( singular) is searching for ones to worship him in spirit and truth--not the Father, son and HS.

I believe this again is the null hypothesis and that there is no need for all three members of the Trinity to be mentioned every time one of the members is mentioned.

 

[Muffled]

You can believe whatever unscriptural belief you want to.

Nowhere in the Bible does is say in the Bible the Father is the first person of the trinity.
Nowhere in the Bible does is say in the Bible the Son is the second person of the trinity.
Nowhere in the Bible does is say in the Bible the Holy Spirit is the third person of the trinity.

Is this not what the trinity belief is?

I believe this is the null hypothesis since God is not required to say things in your exact words.

 

[kjw47]

This is the null hypothesis; I believe there is no need to mention the HS until it is time for the HS.

I believe the name of the HS is Jesus.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Trinitarians do not twist passages as JW's do.

And what trinity based religion teaches the HS,s name is Jesus? The bible doesn't teach that.

 

[Muffled]

And what trinity based religion teaches the HS,s name is Jesus? The bible doesn't teach that.

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as also ye were called in one hope of your calling;

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever,
17 even the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth him not, neither knoweth him: ye know him; for he abideth with you, and shall be in you.
18 ¶ I will not leave you desolate: I come unto you.

 

[kjw47]

This is the null hypothesis; I believe there is no need to mention the HS until it is time for the HS.

I believe the name of the HS is Jesus.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Trinitarians do not twist passages as JW's do.

Wow the worlds darkness amazes me.

Here is fact:

The greek word proskenaue has 4 meanings from greek to English--1) worship to God--2) obeisance to a king--plus 2 others--- where the Messiah( Gods appointed king) is concerned, obeisance is the correct usage, not worship as is found in the erred trinity translations. Trinitarians twisted it centuries ago--the JW,s are fixing it.

 

[indepth thinker]

The cross and the trinity are both sort of entwined to come up with the trinity doctrine, which is of course, is made up.

The current trinity doctrine presented by a majority of Christians is truly made up depending on the denominational division of Christianity you reference concerning trinity doctrine.

Eastern Orthodox claim the trinity to be Father, Mother, Son. Roman Christians claim Father, Son, Holy spirit.

The below Quote is what Jesus had to say about the trinity before Christian forefathers of our past manipulated it due to lack of understanding.

"AGAIN Jesus taught them saying, God hath raised up witnesses to the truth in every nation and every age, that all might know the will of the Eternal and do it, and after that, enter into the kingdom, to be rulers and workers with the Eternal, God is Power, Love and Wisdom, and these three are One. God is Truth, Goodness and Beauty, and these three are One. God is Justice, Knowledge and Purity, and these three are One. God is Splendor, Compassion and Holiness, and these three are One. And these four Trinities are One in the hidden Deity, the Perfect, the Infinite, the Only. Likewise in every man who is perfected, there are three persons, that of the son, that of the spouse. and that of the father, and these three are one. So in every woman who is Perfected are there three persons, that of the daughter, that of the bride, and that of the mother and these three are one; and the man and the woman are one, even as God is One Thus it is with God the Father-Mother, in Whom is neither male nor female and in Whom is both, and each is threefold, and all are One in the hidden Unity. Marvel not at this, for as it is above so it is below, and as it is below so it is above, and that which is on earth is so, because it is so in Heaven. Again I say unto you, I and My Bride are one, even as Maria Magdalena, whom I have chosen and sanctified unto Myself as a type, is one with Me; I and My Church are One. And the Church is the elect of humanity for the salvation of all. The Church of the first born is the Maria of God. Thus saith the Eternal, She is My Mother and she hath ever conceived Me, and brought Me forth as Her Son in every age and clime. She is My Bride, ever one in Holy Union with Me her Spouse. She is My Daughter, for she hath ever issued and proceeded from Me her Father, rejoicing in Me. And these two Trinities are One in the Eternal, and are strewn forth in each man and woman who are made perfect, ever being born of God, and rejoicing in light, ever being lifted up and made one with God, ever conceiving and bringing forth God for the salvation of the many. This is the Mystery of the Trinity in Humanity, and moreover in every individual child of man must be accomplished the mystery of God, ever witnessing to the light, suffering for the truth, ascending into Heaven, and sending forth the Spirit of Truth And this is the path of salvation, for the kingdom of God is within. And one said unto him, Master, when shall the kingdom come? And he answered and said, When that which is without shall be as that which is within, and that which is within shall be as that which is without, and, the male with the female, neither male nor female, but the two in One. They who have ears to hear, let them hear."

 

[sojourner]

The current trinity doctrine presented by a majority of Christians is truly made up depending on the denominational division of Christianity you reference concerning trinity doctrine.

Eastern Orthodox claim the trinity to be Father, Mother, Son. Roman Christians claim Father, Son, Holy spirit.

The below Quote is what Jesus had to say about the trinity before Christian forefathers of our past manipulated it due to lack of understanding.

"AGAIN Jesus taught them saying, God hath raised up witnesses to the truth in every nation and every age, that all might know the will of the Eternal and do it, and after that, enter into the kingdom, to be rulers and workers with the Eternal, God is Power, Love and Wisdom, and these three are One. God is Truth, Goodness and Beauty, and these three are One. God is Justice, Knowledge and Purity, and these three are One. God is Splendor, Compassion and Holiness, and these three are One. And these four Trinities are One in the hidden Deity, the Perfect, the Infinite, the Only. Likewise in every man who is perfected, there are three persons, that of the son, that of the spouse. and that of the father, and these three are one. So in every woman who is Perfected are there three persons, that of the daughter, that of the bride, and that of the mother and these three are one; and the man and the woman are one, even as God is One Thus it is with God the Father-Mother, in Whom is neither male nor female and in Whom is both, and each is threefold, and all are One in the hidden Unity. Marvel not at this, for as it is above so it is below, and as it is below so it is above, and that which is on earth is so, because it is so in Heaven. Again I say unto you, I and My Bride are one, even as Maria Magdalena, whom I have chosen and sanctified unto Myself as a type, is one with Me; I and My Church are One. And the Church is the elect of humanity for the salvation of all. The Church of the first born is the Maria of God. Thus saith the Eternal, She is My Mother and she hath ever conceived Me, and brought Me forth as Her Son in every age and clime. She is My Bride, ever one in Holy Union with Me her Spouse. She is My Daughter, for she hath ever issued and proceeded from Me her Father, rejoicing in Me. And these two Trinities are One in the Eternal, and are strewn forth in each man and woman who are made perfect, ever being born of God, and rejoicing in light, ever being lifted up and made one with God, ever conceiving and bringing forth God for the salvation of the many. This is the Mystery of the Trinity in Humanity, and moreover in every individual child of man must be accomplished the mystery of God, ever witnessing to the light, suffering for the truth, ascending into Heaven, and sending forth the Spirit of Truth And this is the path of salvation, for the kingdom of God is within. And one said unto him, Master, when shall the kingdom come? And he answered and said, When that which is without shall be as that which is within, and that which is within shall be as that which is without, and, the male with the female, neither male nor female, but the two in One. They who have ears to hear, let them hear."

1) No Orthodox person I'm aware of speaks of "mother." They do speak of "Holy Spirit."
2) Please cite the source of your quotation.

 

[Shiranui117]

Eastern Orthodox claim the trinity to be Father, Mother, Son. Roman Christians claim Father, Son, Holy spirit.

As a person who's studied Orthodoxy for years, and lived in the Orthodox/Byzantine world almost continuously for 3.5 years... Wat?

But seriously, I've seen odd descriptions of the Orthodox by people who don't know about Orthodox Christianity... For example, I've seen people claim Orthodox to be Catholics or mistake us for Catholics. I've seen Orthodox accused of being idolators. I've seen Eastern Orthodox Christians being confused with Orthodox Jews. And most often, above all else, I've seen people who don't even have a clue what Orthodox Christianity is. Not once have I ever seen anyone claim that Eastern Orthodox believe the Trinity to be Father, Mother and Son.

But no, really, we believe the Trinity to be Father, Son and Holy Spirit like everyone else. A fun fact: it was, by and large, Orthodox theologians who defended the Apostolic dogma of the Trinity against the newly-developed Arian and Sabellian heresies at the Council of Nicaea in 325.

"AGAIN Jesus taught them saying, God hath raised up witnesses to the truth in every nation and every age, that all might know the will of the Eternal and do it, and after that, enter into the kingdom, to be rulers and workers with the Eternal, God is Power, Love and Wisdom, and these three are One. God is Truth, Goodness and Beauty, and these three are One. God is Justice, Knowledge and Purity, and these three are One. God is Splendor, Compassion and Holiness, and these three are One. And these four Trinities are One in the hidden Deity, the Perfect, the Infinite, the Only. Likewise in every man who is perfected, there are three persons, that of the son, that of the spouse. and that of the father, and these three are one. So in every woman who is Perfected are there three persons, that of the daughter, that of the bride, and that of the mother and these three are one; and the man and the woman are one, even as God is One Thus it is with God the Father-Mother, in Whom is neither male nor female and in Whom is both, and each is threefold, and all are One in the hidden Unity. Marvel not at this, for as it is above so it is below, and as it is below so it is above, and that which is on earth is so, because it is so in Heaven. Again I say unto you, I and My Bride are one, even as Maria Magdalena, whom I have chosen and sanctified unto Myself as a type, is one with Me; I and My Church are One. And the Church is the elect of humanity for the salvation of all. The Church of the first born is the Maria of God. Thus saith the Eternal, She is My Mother and she hath ever conceived Me, and brought Me forth as Her Son in every age and clime. She is My Bride, ever one in Holy Union with Me her Spouse. She is My Daughter, for she hath ever issued and proceeded from Me her Father, rejoicing in Me. And these two Trinities are One in the Eternal, and are strewn forth in each man and woman who are made perfect, ever being born of God, and rejoicing in light, ever being lifted up and made one with God, ever conceiving and bringing forth God for the salvation of the many. This is the Mystery of the Trinity in Humanity, and moreover in every individual child of man must be accomplished the mystery of God, ever witnessing to the light, suffering for the truth, ascending into Heaven, and sending forth the Spirit of Truth And this is the path of salvation, for the kingdom of God is within. And one said unto him, Master, when shall the kingdom come? And he answered and said, When that which is without shall be as that which is within, and that which is within shall be as that which is without, and, the male with the female, neither male nor female, but the two in One. They who have ears to hear, let them hear."

Is this some quote from a Gnostic Gospel or something?

(Yay, 2000th post!)

 

[indepth thinker]

The quote referencing Jesus concerning trinity is taken from an ancient text which the 4 bible cannon gospels originated.

The Perception regarding Orthodox religion "Father, Mother, Son" is from a friend of mine who claims to be Eastern Orthodox, but is of Jewish decent. This friend recognizes that several OT scriptures uses a Female gender word in Jewish language in regards to the holy spirit.

What I do find fascinating about Christianity, is how much it changes depending on the person you speak with, regardless of denominational affiliation.

 

[Shiranui117]

The quote referencing Jesus concerning trinity is taken from an ancient text which the 4 bible cannon gospels originated.

Do you have a source or a name for this ancient text?

The Perception regarding Orthodox religion "Father, Mother, Son" is from a friend of mine who claims to be Eastern Orthodox, but is of Jewish decent. This friend recognizes that several OT scriptures uses a Female gender word in Jewish language in regards to the holy spirit.

Yes, the word for "Spirit" in Greek is the female noun "pneuma". But nowhere do any of the Early Church Fathers refer to the Holy Spirit as feminine, or being a "mother"... I'm curious as to when your friend last attended an Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy. Literally the first thing you hear at the very start of the Liturgy are the words, "Blessed is the kingdom of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, always, now and ever and forever." And there are so many doxologies in the Liturgy that say "Father, Son and Holy Spirit," I can't even think of how many times it's said. It must be at least a dozen or two dozen. Nowhere in the Eastern Orthodox Church will you hear the Trinity described as "Father, Mother and Son"--it runs completely contrary to what we have always taught about the Trinity. I can't even think of heretical groups that have said such a thing as "Trinity=Father, Mother and Son" at any point in history. There was such a position among the Gnostics, but that's a completely different can of beans.

What I do find fascinating about Christianity, is how much it changes depending on the person you speak with, regardless of denominational affiliation.

That has more to do with the Protestant doctrine of sola scriptura, where one's own personal interpretation is the irrefutable king. Normally, the Christians within one denomination would all be of one mind and share the same faith, even if they choose to express or describe it a bit differently than someone else, or emphasize one point while another person emphasizes a different point. But yeah, there's a lot of fragmentation going on right now.

 

[Muffled]

As a person who's studied Orthodoxy for years, and lived in the Orthodox/Byzantine world almost continuously for 3.5 years... Wat?

But seriously, I've seen odd descriptions of the Orthodox by people who don't know about Orthodox Christianity... For example, I've seen people claim Orthodox to be Catholics or mistake us for Catholics. I've seen Orthodox accused of being idolators. I've seen Eastern Orthodox Christians being confused with Orthodox Jews. And most often, above all else, I've seen people who don't even have a clue what Orthodox Christianity is. Not once have I ever seen anyone claim that Eastern Orthodox believe the Trinity to be Father, Mother and Son.

But no, really, we believe the Trinity to be Father, Son and Holy Spirit like everyone else. A fun fact: it was, by and large, Orthodox theologians who defended the Apostolic dogma of the Trinity against the newly-developed Arian and Sabellian heresies at the Council of Nicaea in 325.

Is this some quote from a Gnostic Gospel or something?

(Yay, 2000th post!)

That was my impression also but I was surprised by his explanation. I was thinking of the RCC term Queen of Heaven which I believe tends to equate Mary with God. I beleive this is something Protestants call Maryism.

Heresy is simply believing something different from what the RCC teaches and does not necessarily equate to truth. I believe Sabellius comes closer to the truth than Athanasius but his analogies are flawed.

 

[Shiranui117]

That was my impression also but I was surprised by his explanation. I was thinking of the RCC term Queen of Heaven which I believe tends to equate Mary with God. I beleive this is something Protestants call Maryism.

I understand why the Protestants are uncomfortable with the term; it's really suspect if you take it out of the context of Mary being crowned for her faith and humility, much the same way that we all will be. And there is a fringe group within Catholicism who is demanding that the Pope make a "Co-Redemptrix" dogma; i.e. this small number of Catholics believe that every single grace of God comes to us through Mary.

Heresy is simply believing something different from what the RCC teaches and does not necessarily equate to truth. I believe Sabellius comes closer to the truth than Athanasius but his analogies are flawed.

Actually, the word "heresy" means to choose to follow another false belief once one has already come to know the Truth, and the word also refers to sectarianism and cutting oneself off; i.e. creating a divide.

What analogies would you use that Sabellius didn't? And could you interpret the analogies? I'm not entirely sure what it is you exactly believe.

 

[2ndpillar]

1+1+1=1? or 1+1+1=3 or 1+1+1= something else?

Dear Seeker,
The "Trinity" doctrine, has been controversial for a long time, but was made into law by decree (executive order), in 381 by the Roman emperor Theodosius. Keeping the Commandments of God is a mark on ones' hand and forehead (Dt 6:8). Keeping the decree of the Roman emperor, is taking on his "mark". This Roman decree was done previous to the Council of 451, which actually formally accepted this position, in which there is documentation. The duality supposition that the "father and son where of one substance" was done in the Council of Nicaea in 325. And a decree, written in 331 by Constantine, gave any opposition to this duality concept, the sentence of death. The decree concerning not buying or selling was done by Constantine in 321 A.D. See following decrees, listed below post.

Rome is symbolized in Daniel 2 as the iron legs and feet of the statue of Nebuchadnezzar, and as a "dreadful" beast out of the sea in Daniel 7 and Rev 13. In Daniel 2, the beast and or statue feet of iron and clay, would be destroyed by the stone cut without hands. That is when the kingdom of God would become the kingdom of the earth. It has not happened as of this time. We still have the Roman church, and her daughters. People are still running around with the beast's mark on their hands and heads, which is the changing of the Law and the Times by the beast. The woman sitting on the beast is the Roman church, the mother of harlots (Rev 17:5).

In AD 381, Theodosius, emperor of the eastern Roman empire, issued a decree in which all his subjects were required to subscribe to a belief in the Trinity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This edict defined Christian orthodoxy and brought to an end a lively and wide-ranging debate about the nature of God;
AD 381: Charles Freeman: 9781590201718: Amazon.com: Books

[Constantine's law of…321 [C.E] uniting Christians and pagans in the observance of the "venerable day of the sun" It is to be noted that this official solar worship, the final form of paganism in the empire…, was not the traditional Roman-Greek religion of Jupiter, Apollo, Venus, and the other Olympian deities. It was a product of the mingling Hellenistic-Oriental elements, exemplified in Aurelian's establishment of Eastern Sun worship at Rome as the official religion of the empire, and in his new temple enshrining Syrian statutes statues of Bel and the sun…. Thus at last Bel, the god of Babylon, came into the official imperial temple of Rome, the center of the imperial religion. It was this late Roman-Oriental worship of one supreme god, symbolized by the sun and absorbing lesser divinities as subordinates or manifestations of the universal deity, that competed with young Christianity. This was the Roman religion that went down in defeat but infiltrated and colored the victorious church with its own elements, some of which can be seen to this day. (Cramer 4)

On March 7, 321, Sunday was declared the official day of rest, on which markets were banned and public offices were closed,[ Constantine the Great and Christianity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"In addition, if any writing composed by Arius should be found, it should be handed over to the flames, so that not only will the wickedness of his teaching be obliterated, but nothing will be left even to remind anyone of him. And I hereby make a public order, that if someone should be discovered to have hidden a writing composed by Arius, and not to have immediately brought it forward and destroyed it by fire, his penalty shall be death. As soon as he is discovered in this offence, he shall be submitted for capital punishment....." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism
— Edict by Emperor Constantine against the Arians[8]

/SIZE]

 

[sojourner]

Dear Seeker,
The "Trinity" doctrine, has been controversial for a long time, but was made into law by decree (executive order), in 381 by the Roman emperor Theodosius. Keeping the Commandments of God is a mark on ones' hand and forehead (Dt 6:8). Keeping the decree of the Roman emperor, is taking on his "mark". This Roman decree was done previous to the Council of 451, which actually formally accepted this position, in which there is documentation. The duality supposition that the "father and son where of one substance" was done in the Council of Nicaea in 325. And a decree, written in 331 by Constantine, gave any opposition to this duality concept, the sentence of death. The decree concerning not buying or selling was done by Constantine in 321 A.D. See following decrees, listed below post.

Rome is symbolized in Daniel 2 as the iron legs and feet of the statue of Nebuchadnezzar, and as a "dreadful" beast out of the sea in Daniel 7 and Rev 13. In Daniel 2, the beast and or statue feet of iron and clay, would be destroyed by the stone cut without hands. That is when the kingdom of God would become the kingdom of the earth. It has not happened as of this time. We still have the Roman church, and her daughters. People are still running around with the beast's mark on their hands and heads, which is the changing of the Law and the Times by the beast. The woman sitting on the beast is the Roman church, the mother of harlots (Rev 17:5).

In AD 381, Theodosius, emperor of the eastern Roman empire, issued a decree in which all his subjects were required to subscribe to a belief in the Trinity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This edict defined Christian orthodoxy and brought to an end a lively and wide-ranging debate about the nature of God;
AD 381: Charles Freeman: 9781590201718: Amazon.com: Books

[Constantine's law of…321 [C.E] uniting Christians and pagans in the observance of the "venerable day of the sun" It is to be noted that this official solar worship, the final form of paganism in the empire…, was not the traditional Roman-Greek religion of Jupiter, Apollo, Venus, and the other Olympian deities. It was a product of the mingling Hellenistic-Oriental elements, exemplified in Aurelian's establishment of Eastern Sun worship at Rome as the official religion of the empire, and in his new temple enshrining Syrian statutes statues of Bel and the sun…. Thus at last Bel, the god of Babylon, came into the official imperial temple of Rome, the center of the imperial religion. It was this late Roman-Oriental worship of one supreme god, symbolized by the sun and absorbing lesser divinities as subordinates or manifestations of the universal deity, that competed with young Christianity. This was the Roman religion that went down in defeat but infiltrated and colored the victorious church with its own elements, some of which can be seen to this day. (Cramer 4)

On March 7, 321, Sunday was declared the official day of rest, on which markets were banned and public offices were closed,[ Constantine the Great and Christianity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"In addition, if any writing composed by Arius should be found, it should be handed over to the flames, so that not only will the wickedness of his teaching be obliterated, but nothing will be left even to remind anyone of him. And I hereby make a public order, that if someone should be discovered to have hidden a writing composed by Arius, and not to have immediately brought it forward and destroyed it by fire, his penalty shall be death. As soon as he is discovered in this offence, he shall be submitted for capital punishment....." Arianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
— Edict by Emperor Constantine against the Arians[8]

/SIZE]

Soooo...?





What?

 

[2ndpillar]

Soooo...?

What?

Dear sojourner,
The Trinity is based on state mandates as shown in the previous note. If you like state mandates, I think you will love Obamacare. Messiah Hussein is just another dictator who usurps the power of a Republic, just as was done by Julius Caesar, the 1st Pontifex Maximus, who changed the Times, as well as Constantine, who changed the Time and the Laws, as Pontifex Maximus, as well as Pope Gregory, who changed the Time (calendar), as Ponifex Maximus, and Hitler who usurped the German Republic, for a dictatorship, and was more of a god figure. The Trinity is a state imposed mandate, mandated in 381 A.D. by Theodosius. It has pagan roots, and state sponsorship. The "Soo.. What?", is that is the topic of this forum. One should not be unknowing of history, or they will repeat it.

 

[gzusfrk]

1+1+1=1? or 1+1+1=3 or 1+1+1= something else?

You'll have to study the New Testament much to understand the Trinity, However Jesus said many times, I am the way, not we are the way

 

[Shiranui117]

Dear sojourner,
The Trinity is based on state mandates as shown in the previous note. If you like state mandates, I think you will love Obamacare. Messiah Hussein is just another dictator who usurps the power of a Republic, just as was done by Julius Caesar, the 1st Pontifex Maximus, who changed the Times, as well as Constantine, who changed the Time and the Laws, as Pontifex Maximus, as well as Pope Gregory, who changed the Time (calendar), as Ponifex Maximus, and Hitler who usurped the German Republic, for a dictatorship, and was more of a god figure. The Trinity is a state imposed mandate, mandated in 381 A.D. by Theodosius. It has pagan roots, and state sponsorship. The "Soo.. What?", is that is the topic of this forum. One should not be unknowing of history, or they will repeat it.

Prove that the Trinity has pagan origins.

Prove that the Trinity originated with state mandates, and wasn't taught by anyone prior to the Council of Nicaea in 325.

You yourself need to brush up on your Chistian history if you honestly think that the dogma of the Trinity didn't exist prior to the Ecumenical Councils.

 

[2ndpillar]

Prove that the Trinity has pagan origins.

Prove that the Trinity originated with state mandates, and wasn't taught by anyone prior to the Council of Nicaea in 325.

You yourself need to brush up on your Chistian history if you honestly think that the dogma of the Trinity didn't exist prior to the Ecumenical Councils.

Dear Shira,
The Nicaea Council did not produce the Trinity doctrine, they produced a doctrine of duality, The Father and the son of one substance. As for what was taught before and after the Nicaea Council, that would be much, but then again, it was a time of false prophets, false apostles, and false Christ. (Mt 24:11) John 14:30 NAS "I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me;" A Trinity doctrine introduced in 325 was that of the Father, Mary, and the son, but it failed. Mary's position in the Trinity seems to have been reenergized in the Vatican of today.

Isaiah 45:21 says, "Tell ye, and bring them, near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me."

Constantine' Mithriac Sol Invictus god, was the god of the sun, and the source of his mandate in 321 A.D. that all keep the day of the sun as the day of rest, and no one could buy or sell on that day. See decree below at bottom of page. Apollo was also another name for Sol Invictus, and his father was Zeus, and Athena would be the 3rd member of their Trinity. Athena in the Olympian family of the Gods

The first formal accounting of the Trinity doctrine was a state mandate in 381 A.D. by Theodosius, it was later formally adopted in 451 A.D. by the state church:

'We authorize followers of this law to assume the title of orthodox Christians; but as for the others since, in our judgment, they are foolish madmen, we decree that they shall be branded with the ignominious names of heretics.' - Emperor

In AD 381, Theodosius, emperor of the eastern Roman empire, issued a decree in which all his subjects were required to subscribe to a belief in the Trinity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This edict defined Christian orthodoxy and brought to an end a lively and wide-ranging debate about the nature of the Godhead; all other interpretations were now declared heretical.

Moreover, for the first time in a thousand years of Greco-Roman civilization free thought was unambiguously suppressed. Not since the attempt of the pharaoh Akhenaten to impose his god Aten on his Egyptian subjects in the fourteenth century BC had there been such a widesweeping programme of religious coersion.Yet surprisingly this political revolution, intended to bring inner cohesion to an empire under threat from the outside, has been airbrushed from the historical record. Instead, it has been claimed that the Christian Church had reached a consensus on the Trinity which was promulgated at the Council of Constantinople in AD 381. In this groundbreaking new book, acclaimed historian Charles Freeman shows that the council was in fact a shambolic affair, which only took place after Theodosius' decree had become law. In short, the Church was acquiescing in the overwhelming power of the emperor. Freeman argues that Theodosius' edict and the subsequent suppression of paganism not only brought an end to the diversity of religious and philosophical beliefs throughout the empire but created numerous theological problems for the Church, which have remained unsolved. The year AD 381, Freeman concludes, marked 'a turning point which time forgot'.
Theohttp://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=629650#629650dosius.


Brahminism was one sect which believed in the deity Brahma, Vishnu and Siva. The "Trimourti", as they became know as - or Trinity of God - comprised this divine council

India portrayed a similar Trinity under the name of "Eko Deva Trimurtti," or "One God, three forms". (Col. Vans Kennedy, Hindoo Mythology, p. 211). In Japan the Buddhists worship Buddha, with three heads, in exactly the same form, under the name of "San Pao Fuh". (Gillespie, Sinim).

The historian S. H. Hooke tells in detail of the ancient Sumerian trinity: Anu was the primary god of heaven, the ‘Father’, and the ‘King of the Gods’; Enlil, the ‘wind-god’ was the god of the earth, and a creator god; and Enki was the god of waters and the ‘lord of wisdom’ (15-18). The historian, H. W. F. Saggs, explains that the Babylonian triad consisted of ‘three gods of roughly equal rank... whose inter-relationship is of the essence of their natures’ (316).

Egypt’s history is similar to Sumeria’s in antiquity. In his Egyptian Myths, George Hart, lecturer for the British Museum and professor of ancient Egyptian heiroglyphics at the University of London, shows how Egypt also believed in a ‘transcendental, above creation, and preexisting’ one, the god Amun. Amun was really three gods in one. Re was his face, Ptah his body, and Amun his hidden identity (24). The well-known historian Will Durant concurs that Ra, Amon, and Ptah were ‘combined as three embodiments or aspects of one supreme and triune deity’ (Oriental Heritage 201). Additionally, a hymn to Amun written in the 14th century BC defines the Egyptian trinity: ‘All Gods are three: Amun, Re, Ptah; they have no equal. His name is hidden as Amun, he is Re... before [men], and his body is Ptah’ (Hornung 219). The Origin of the Trinity: From Paganism to Constantine

Constantine's law of…321 [C.E] uniting Christians and pagans in the observance of the "venerable day of the sun" It is to be noted that this official solar worship, the final form of paganism in the empire…, was not the traditional Roman-Greek religion of Jupiter, Apollo, Venus, and the other Olympian deities. It was a product of the mingling Hellenistic-Oriental elements, exemplified in Aurelian's establishment of Eastern Sun worship at Rome as the official religion of the empire, and in his new temple enshrining Syrian statutes statues of Bel and the sun…. Thus at last Bel, the god of Babylon, came into the official imperial temple of Rome, the center of the imperial religion. It was this late Roman-Oriental worship of one supreme god, symbolized by the sun and absorbing lesser divinities as subordinates or manifestations of the universal deity, that competed with young Christianity. This was the Roman religion that went down in defeat but infiltrated and colored the victorious church with its own elements, some of which can be seen to this day. (Cramer 4)

On March 7, 321, Sunday was declared the official day of rest, on which markets were banned and public offices were closed,[ Constantine the Great and Christianity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Shiranui117]

Dear Shira,
The Nicaea Council did not produce the Trinity doctrine, they produced a doctrine of duality, The Father and the son of one substance. As for what was taught before and after the Nicaea Council, that would be much, but then again, it was a time of false prophets, false apostles, and false Christ. (Mt 24:11) John 14:30 NAS . . . A Trinity doctrine introduced in 325 was that of the Father, Mary, and the son, but it failed. Mary's position in the Trinity seems to have been reenergized in the Vatican of today.

Have you ever read the acts, Creed and canons of the Council of Nicaea? Nowhere in there is Mary ever said to be part of the Trinity, or divine in any way. Nor is a duality of Father and Son asserted; the Holy Spirit is also included; as you will find in the Synodal letter, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all invoked. The Holy Spirit was also part of the Creed of the Council of Nicaea, though He isn't given as much attention as the Son.

The way the Councils work is, they refute the heresies that are plaguing the Church at that time--in the case of the Council of Nicaea, Arianism. Arianism's biggest component was denying the divinity of the Son and asserting that the Son was a temporal creation of the Father, so the Fathers of the Council refuted that component and reaffirmed the co-divinity, co-eternality and co-equality of the Son with the Father (hence the conciliar Creed from Nicaea elaborating the Faith about Jesus in heavily anti-Arian terms). The Holy Spirit wouldn't be the main target of the Arians and Semi-Arians until after the time of Nicaea, so it wasn't necessary for the Church to defend the Holy Spirit's divinity for quite a while.

Isaiah 45:21 says, . . . who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me. . .

And we Orthodox Christians and all other Trinitarians would agree with that completely; there is only one God to be worshipped. This God just so happens to have revealed Himself as being a Trinity.

Apollo was also another name for Sol Invictus, and his father was Zeus, and Athena would be the 3rd member of their Trinity. Athena in the Olympian family of the Gods

Except, that's not a Trinity in the Christian sense, not even close. That's three separate gods who were created/born at different times and independently of each other. Not even close to three Persons sharing the same Divine Essence, Nature and Will, being co-eternal, co-equal, co-divine, consubstantial, with none preexisting the other. "The Trinity, one in essence and undivided" as we say in the Divine Liturgy. Not even close to a trio of gods that the Greeks had in mind.

The first formal accounting of the Trinity doctrine was a state mandate in 381 A.D. by Theodosius, it was later formally adopted in 451 A.D. by the state church:

Have you read anything by the students of the Apostles and the Church Fathers? They all affirm and teach the Trinity, from the first century to the fourth, and beyond. I could easily pull up half a dozen citations for you.

In AD 381, Theodosius, emperor of the eastern Roman empire, issued a decree in which all his subjects were required to subscribe to a belief in the Trinity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This edict defined Christian orthodoxy and brought to an end a lively and wide-ranging debate about the nature of the Godhead; all other interpretations were now declared heretical.

It wasn't the edict which defined Christian Orthodoxy. Rather, the Emperor was defending and enforcing what the Council of Constantinople had already decreed. The Emperors didn't make theology, they just enforced whatever a council said. And there were times when the emperors defended Arian and Nestorian and Monothelite and iconoclastic councils, as well as times when they defended Orthodox councils.

I can give you links so you can start researching Christian history if you'd like, from scholarly and well-respected sources.

Moreover, for the first time in a thousand years of Greco-Roman civilization free thought was unambiguously suppressed. Not since the attempt of the pharaoh Akhenaten to impose his god Aten on his Egyptian subjects in the fourteenth century BC had there been such a widesweeping programme of religious coersion.Yet surprisingly this political revolution, intended to bring inner cohesion to an empire under threat from the outside, has been airbrushed from the historical record. Instead, it has been claimed that the Christian Church had reached a consensus on the Trinity which was promulgated at the Council of Constantinople in AD 381. In this groundbreaking new book, acclaimed historian Charles Freeman shows that the council was in fact a shambolic affair, which only took place after Theodosius' decree had become law. In short, the Church was acquiescing in the overwhelming power of the emperor. Freeman argues that Theodosius' edict and the subsequent suppression of paganism not only brought an end to the diversity of religious and philosophical beliefs throughout the empire but created numerous theological problems for the Church, which have remained unsolved. The year AD 381, Freeman concludes, marked 'a turning point which time forgot'

So one guy who doesn't specialize in Christian history, but is credible in other cultures and mythology, says something about Christian history that goes completely against the consensus of the academic community as to the rise of Christian Orthodoxy? You'll pardon me if I don't take Mr. Freeman seriously.

Just because some guy opens his mouth about Christian history doesn't mean he's right.

Brahminism was one sect which believed in the deity Brahma, Vishnu and Siva. The "Trimourti", as they became know as - or Trinity of God - comprised this divine council

India portrayed a similar Trinity under the name of "Eko Deva Trimurtti," or "One God, three forms". (Col. Vans Kennedy, Hindoo Mythology, p. 211). In Japan the Buddhists worship Buddha, with three heads, in exactly the same form, under the name of "San Pao Fuh". (Gillespie, Sinim).

That's Modalism, the teaching that God has three masks or forms, but is not in fact three distinct Persons, which is contrary to Christian belief in the Trinity. Trinitarianism is not Modalism. At its best, the Trimurti would constitute Partialism, i.e. the teaching that each of the three Hindu gods mentioned are just smaller parts of the one larger God, which would be in keeping with Hindu teaching on pantheism, but would also still be contradictory to Christian teaching on the Trinity.

The historian S. H. Hooke tells in detail of the ancient Sumerian trinity: Anu was the primary god of heaven, the ‘Father’, and the ‘King of the Gods’; Enlil, the ‘wind-god’ was the god of the earth, and a creator god; and Enki was the god of waters and the ‘lord of wisdom’ (15-18). The historian, H. W. F. Saggs, explains that the Babylonian triad consisted of ‘three gods of roughly equal rank... whose inter-relationship is of the essence of their natures’ (316).

Again, three separate gods who came to be at different times. Not consonant with the Trinity.

Egypt’s history is similar to Sumeria’s in antiquity. In his Egyptian Myths, George Hart, lecturer for the British Museum and professor of ancient Egyptian heiroglyphics at the University of London, shows how Egypt also believed in a ‘transcendental, above creation, and preexisting’ one, the god Amun. Amun was really three gods in one. Re was his face, Ptah his body, and Amun his hidden identity (24). The well-known historian Will Durant concurs that Ra, Amon, and Ptah were ‘combined as three embodiments or aspects of one supreme and triune deity’ (Oriental Heritage 201). Additionally, a hymn to Amun written in the 14th century BC defines the Egyptian trinity: ‘All Gods are three: Amun, Re, Ptah; they have no equal. His name is hidden as Amun, he is Re... before [men], and his body is Ptah’

The case of Amon isn't consonant with the Trinity. It's a part of Egypt's long line of hybridizing their gods and mixing them together. Which is not what Christians do with the Trinity.

And if you have a source to the full text of that hymn, I'd like to examine it and see if it's saying what Mr. Hart wants it to say, vis-a-vis the Christian Trinity. But from what I can see here, it's not at all what the Christian dogma of the Trinity teaches. What you show is three different aspects of one God, which is both Partialism and Modalism, again, neither of which match the dogma of the Trinity.

Constantine's law of…321 [C.E] uniting Christians and pagans in the observance of the "venerable day of the sun" It is to be noted that this official solar worship, . . . This was the Roman religion that went down in defeat but infiltrated and colored the victorious church with its own elements, some of which can be seen to this day. (Cramer 4)

On March 7, 321, Sunday was declared the official day of rest, on which markets were banned and public offices were closed,[ Constantine the Great and Christianity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I believe you've given me this exact same point before, and I believe I've already told you about how Christians had been worshipping on Sunday from the beginning, and how Christ was upheld against the pagan sun gods as the TRUE "Sun of Righteousness" (Malachi 4:2).