The Trinity

[CG Didymus]

I believe God is not three but that He is one so naturally He plays all three roles in agreement since He is not schizophrenic.

Sounds good to me. Why would God need to come in three separate but equal parts? He's God. He can manifest himself as anything. His spirit is everywhere. Why would he need a physical body? Besides, if a Christian believes they indwelt by the Holy Spirit and that Jesus lives in their heart, aren't they part of God and one with God?

 

[icebuddy]

The teaching of a trinity contradicts Jesus' truths--he clearly teaches--the one who sent him( John 5:30) = THE ONLY TRUE GOD= ( John 17:1-6)the Father--verse 6 = YHWH(Jehovah) --- believe Jesus---Paul did-1 cor 8:6)

i understand your thoughts on thinking that Jesus "is not" the Father in whom is God. When you post John 5:30 you only confirm what a Trinitarian like myself thinks. To you, you see Jesus as lower, less, not God. Which I personally believe is a trick of satan to look at the Image of God and say "Not God" not my worship... But what I see is much different: If Jesus is truly the Image of God (2cor4:4/Col1:15) and expresses the Father fully and exactly (Heb1:3/john14:7), then wouldnt we expect him (Jesus) to be doing only what the Father does? Could anyone but God say, "I can only do what God does"...

The Only True God - When you read this, did you stop before it says "AND Jesus Christ"? The Old Testament says Jehovah is God And Saviour, when you read that do you put the same meaning into the word "AND" as you do John 17:3? Look at it again: To have eternal life is to know the only true God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Ask yourself a question: Is the way of eternal life to know God and a creature or Just God? Read John 5:39 then read Titus 2:13-15

As for 1 Cor 8:6 - If you read it in context of a world who believes in many gods and many lords, there is but One God and One Lord. Why do you think this verse tears Jesus down when it is lifting him up? The bible doesnt say One God and one Lord the Father at this verse. If Paul would of said One God the Father, One Lord Jesus, and one Spirit the Holy Spirit, i would have no problem because they are all God, Lord, and Spirit. But a confused person who believes in many gods, lords, and spirits needs some sort of Order. Milk before meat in due season...

Let me ask you a simple question to see where your mind is: When you read that there is only one Lord Jesus, do you imply that the Father in not Lord or called Lord?

I see Paul putting the Father and Jesus together as a Trinitarian does. To say we all exist and live through a created creature is odd...

I would say to a person that believes in many gods and many lords that to us there is but one God and one system of belief. when asked of what that is, I would say the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I see Paul doing this by making sure he included Jesus in that system. To say Jesus is not God is to deny God of the greatest love ever (read John 15:13)

In Love

 

[kjw47]

i understand your thoughts on thinking that Jesus "is not" the Father in whom is God. When you post John 5:30 you only confirm what a Trinitarian like myself thinks. To you, you see Jesus as lower, less, not God. Which I personally believe is a trick of satan to look at the Image of God and say "Not God" not my worship... But what I see is much different: If Jesus is truly the Image of God (2cor4:4/Col1:15) and expresses the Father fully and exactly (Heb1:3/john14:7), then wouldnt we expect him (Jesus) to be doing only what the Father does? Could anyone but God say, "I can only do what God does"...

The Only True God - When you read this, did you stop before it says "AND Jesus Christ"? The Old Testament says Jehovah is God And Saviour, when you read that do you put the same meaning into the word "AND" as you do John 17:3? Look at it again: To have eternal life is to know the only true God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Ask yourself a question: Is the way of eternal life to know God and a creature or Just God? Read John 5:39 then read Titus 2:13-15

As for 1 Cor 8:6 - If you read it in context of a world who believes in many gods and many lords, there is but One God and One Lord. Why do you think this verse tears Jesus down when it is lifting him up? The bible doesnt say One God and one Lord the Father at this verse. If Paul would of said One God the Father, One Lord Jesus, and one Spirit the Holy Spirit, i would have no problem because they are all God, Lord, and Spirit. But a confused person who believes in many gods, lords, and spirits needs some sort of Order. Milk before meat in due season...

Let me ask you a simple question to see where your mind is: When you read that there is only one Lord Jesus, do you imply that the Father in not Lord or called Lord?

I see Paul putting the Father and Jesus together as a Trinitarian does. To say we all exist and live through a created creature is odd...

I would say to a person that believes in many gods and many lords that to us there is but one God and one system of belief. when asked of what that is, I would say the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I see Paul doing this by making sure he included Jesus in that system. To say Jesus is not God is to deny God of the greatest love ever (read John 15:13)

In Love

At Jesus baptism--God spoke from heaven and stated---This is my son the beloved whom I have approved, listen to him. Does God need to be approved/ Does God need to be made king of his own kingdom( Daniel 7:13-15)--Does God have a God? Jesus does-John 20:17, rev 3:12) Does God be in subjection to anyone?--No--Jesus will be--1 cor 15:24-28)

The trinitys do not teach one God--this is there teaching at rev 3:12--- This God has a God with another God over there---I don't see just one.

 

[icebuddy]

At Jesus baptism--God spoke from heaven and stated---This is my son the beloved whom I have approved, listen to him. Does God need to be approved/ Does God need to be made king of his own kingdom( Daniel 7:13-15)--Does God have a God? Jesus does-John 20:17, rev 3:12) Does God be in subjection to anyone?--No--Jesus will be--1 cor 15:24-28)

I understand your thoughts, but you are forgetting the belief that a Trinitarian holds. That the Eternal Word of God (1John1:1-4), Emptied Himself (Phil 2:5-11), to become humbled as a servant to even men. You have become focused on Jesus as a man or the "offspring of David". A Trinitarian see Jesus as both the "Offspring and the Root(Source) of David" Rev.22:16. Jesus cleans his disciples feet, does that mean he is not King or Creator? (Your focused on the wrong spot)

Romans 1:2-4 Shows Jesus must have emptied himself to become a descendant of David by his Human Nature to fulfill Gods Promise. God reconciled the world in Christ (2 Cor. 5:18-20) That John the Baptist cleared the way of Jehovah (Is 40:3 / Matt 3:3 / Luke 1:76) and Jesus is the one Isaiah Spoke about. Paul tells us not to be ignorant of who Jesus is at 1Cor10:1-4. That this Jesus is the one in the OT helping the Jews, in who they knew to be God and/or Jehovah. Even God himself says Jesus is "Jehovah our Righteousness" in Jeremiah 23:5-6. Isaiah calls Jesus the "Jehovah of Armies" inspired by God at Isaiah 44:6. That is why Jesus was called "God With Us' (Matt 1:23)

Even the Father says about the Son that Ps 102:25-27 was wrote about Jesus at Hebrews 1:10-12. That is why we Trinitarians see the Eternal word as God and with God (John 1:1) and that is why the Eternal Word (1John 1:1-4)who was God (John 1:1), emptied Himself (Phil 2:5-10)to become a servant, a Jew, a Son, a man, humbled, and in this state, has a God his Father. The Father knows who Jesus is and applies passages of Jehovah directly to Jesus (Hebrews 1:10-12 with PS 102:25-27) and even the olt Testament Prophets called him Jehovah of Armies and Jehovah our Righteousness (Jer 23:6 and IS 44:6) Jesus himself even says he is the "First and the Last" the "Alpha and Omega" (Rev22:12-13 / Rev 1:17-18) Knowing how much Jesus really did give up and wanting us not to miss this truth.

Knowing all of this, why would I or anyone focus upon Jesus in his humbled, emptied state of existence and try to say he is not God or Not Jehovah or Not worthy of my worship? Ask yourself what is the devils plan? To have us look to the Image of God and say "not God", "No Worship" or to look to Jesus and say "my Lord and My God" while on ones knees? (read 2 Cor 4:4-6)

The trinitys do not teach one God--this is there teaching at rev 3:12--- This God has a God with another God over there---I don't see just one.

God is God, he is above our understanding. We see now through a dirty window, but then will see clearly. You act as if Jesus isnt part of God, which I find odd. You are looking into a very small window of time, when our God and Saviour, actually became our Saviour and you cant accept it because he did it in a humbled unexpected way?

I have said this before, but look at the Old Testament Prophets that saw the Angel of the Lord Jehovah. Did they say to the angel, "Your not God and Im not going to worship"? No not at all, they saw Jehovah himself through this angel and Worshiped and Talked to God directly as if this Angel of the Lord was Jehovah himself. So then, how much more can I look to Jesus and say "MY Lord and My God" have mercy upon me as I worship at the feet of Jesus who is "The Image of God"...

what do you think is going to happen? That the Father is going to punish us Trinitarians for praising, worshiping, and calling his Image God...???

I Love God...

 

[Muffled]

Sounds good to me. Why would God need to come in three separate but equal parts? He's God. He can manifest himself as anything. His spirit is everywhere. Why would he need a physical body? Besides, if a Christian believes they indwelt by the Holy Spirit and that Jesus lives in their heart, aren't they part of God and one with God?

I believe He doesn't come in parts. He is one. It is only our view that makes a distinction between God in a body and God outside of a body.

God does not have parts. We are one with God if God is in control of our bodies.

God doesn't need a body. He came to us in a body so that we would have eternal life.

 

[kjw47]

I understand your thoughts, but you are forgetting the belief that a Trinitarian holds. That the Eternal Word of God (1John1:1-4), Emptied Himself (Phil 2:5-11), to become humbled as a servant to even men. You have become focused on Jesus as a man or the "offspring of David". A Trinitarian see Jesus as both the "Offspring and the Root(Source) of David" Rev.22:16. Jesus cleans his disciples feet, does that mean he is not King or Creator? (Your focused on the wrong spot)

Romans 1:2-4 Shows Jesus must have emptied himself to become a descendant of David by his Human Nature to fulfill Gods Promise. God reconciled the world in Christ (2 Cor. 5:18-20) That John the Baptist cleared the way of Jehovah (Is 40:3 / Matt 3:3 / Luke 1:76) and Jesus is the one Isaiah Spoke about. Paul tells us not to be ignorant of who Jesus is at 1Cor10:1-4. That this Jesus is the one in the OT helping the Jews, in who they knew to be God and/or Jehovah. Even God himself says Jesus is "Jehovah our Righteousness" in Jeremiah 23:5-6. Isaiah calls Jesus the "Jehovah of Armies" inspired by God at Isaiah 44:6. That is why Jesus was called "God With Us' (Matt 1:23)

Even the Father says about the Son that Ps 102:25-27 was wrote about Jesus at Hebrews 1:10-12. That is why we Trinitarians see the Eternal word as God and with God (John 1:1) and that is why the Eternal Word (1John 1:1-4)who was God (John 1:1), emptied Himself (Phil 2:5-10)to become a servant, a Jew, a Son, a man, humbled, and in this state, has a God his Father. The Father knows who Jesus is and applies passages of Jehovah directly to Jesus (Hebrews 1:10-12 with PS 102:25-27) and even the olt Testament Prophets called him Jehovah of Armies and Jehovah our Righteousness (Jer 23:6 and IS 44:6) Jesus himself even says he is the "First and the Last" the "Alpha and Omega" (Rev22:12-13 / Rev 1:17-18) Knowing how much Jesus really did give up and wanting us not to miss this truth.

Knowing all of this, why would I or anyone focus upon Jesus in his humbled, emptied state of existence and try to say he is not God or Not Jehovah or Not worthy of my worship? Ask yourself what is the devils plan? To have us look to the Image of God and say "not God", "No Worship" or to look to Jesus and say "my Lord and My God" while on ones knees? (read 2 Cor 4:4-6)

God is God, he is above our understanding. We see now through a dirty window, but then will see clearly. You act as if Jesus isnt part of God, which I find odd. You are looking into a very small window of time, when our God and Saviour, actually became our Saviour and you cant accept it because he did it in a humbled unexpected way?

I have said this before, but look at the Old Testament Prophets that saw the Angel of the Lord Jehovah. Did they say to the angel, "Your not God and Im not going to worship"? No not at all, they saw Jehovah himself through this angel and Worshiped and Talked to God directly as if this Angel of the Lord was Jehovah himself. So then, how much more can I look to Jesus and say "MY Lord and My God" have mercy upon me as I worship at the feet of Jesus who is "The Image of God"...

what do you think is going to happen? That the Father is going to punish us Trinitarians for praising, worshiping, and calling his Image God...???

I Love God...

Satan is the one posing as all false gods--seeking worship---will God punish one--- Yes he will--- He showed everyone in Noahs day. In fact God warned everyone in advance nearly 2000 years ago when he stated---GET OUT OF HER( FALSE GOD WORSHIP)

 

[icebuddy]

Satan is the one posing as all false gods--seeking worship---will God punish one--- Yes he will--- He showed everyone in Noahs day. In fact God warned everyone in advance nearly 2000 years ago when he stated---GET OUT OF HER( FALSE GOD WORSHIP)

Let me ask you some direct questions:

Do you believe I will be punished for worshiping Jesus Christ (The Image of God)?

Do you believe Jesus to be a false god?

In Love

 

[Shiranui117]

At Jesus baptism--God spoke from heaven and stated---This is my son the beloved whom I have approved, listen to him. Does God need to be approved/ Does God need to be made king of his own kingdom( Daniel 7:13-15)

If this is the case, then why does it say in Psalm 50 (Psalm 51 if you use a Western Bible), "Against Thee only have I sinned, and done that which is evil in Thy sight, that YOU might be justified in Your sentence and prevail when YOU are judged"?

God proclaims Jesus as being His beloved Son--not that Christ wasn't already beloved by God or that God wasn't pleased with Jesus beforehand. Rather, God makes known to humanity the nature of Christ's being approved of and loved by the Father.

--Does God have a God? Jesus does-John 20:17, rev 3:12)

The Father is Jesus' God in a different way than the Father is our God--hence why Jesus does not say "our God" at this time, but instead "my God and your God." In what way is the Father Jesus' Father and God, vs. being our Father and God? In this way: Jesus is begotten of the Father, whereas we are created by God. Jesus is the Logos and Icon of the Father, whereas we hear the Logos and bear the Icon of God within us. Likewise, the Father is Jesus' God because Jesus is incarnate as a man. St. Ignatius of Antioch describes Jesus as being both Uncreated and created--Uncreated in that Jesus is the eternally-begotten Son of God and one of the Holy Trinity, but created in that Jesus took on our created human nature at His Incarnation.

Does God be in subjection to anyone?--No--Jesus will be--1 cor 15:24-28)

Really? I see Jesus continuing to reign on the throne of God in Revelation 22:1-3, after the consummation of all things. Jesus' kingdom will have no end.

The trinitys do not teach one God--this is there teaching at rev 3:12--- This God has a God with another God over there---I don't see just one.

Then you do not understand the doctrine of the Trinity. We teach that there is one God, not three, but one.

 

[kjw47]

If this is the case, then why does it say in Psalm 50 (Psalm 51 if you use a Western Bible), "Against Thee only have I sinned, and done that which is evil in Thy sight, that YOU might be justified in Your sentence and prevail when YOU are judged"?

God proclaims Jesus as being His beloved Son--not that Christ wasn't already beloved by God or that God wasn't pleased with Jesus beforehand. Rather, God makes known to humanity the nature of Christ's being approved of and loved by the Father.

The Father is Jesus' God in a different way than the Father is our God--hence why Jesus does not say "our God" at this time, but instead "my God and your God." In what way is the Father Jesus' Father and God, vs. being our Father and God? In this way: Jesus is begotten of the Father, whereas we are created by God. Jesus is the Logos and Icon of the Father, whereas we hear the Logos and bear the Icon of God within us. Likewise, the Father is Jesus' God because Jesus is incarnate as a man. St. Ignatius of Antioch describes Jesus as being both Uncreated and created--Uncreated in that Jesus is the eternally-begotten Son of God and one of the Holy Trinity, but created in that Jesus took on our created human nature at His Incarnation.

Really? I see Jesus continuing to reign on the throne of God in Revelation 22:1-3, after the consummation of all things. Jesus' kingdom will have no end.

Then you do not understand the doctrine of the Trinity. We teach that there is one God, not three, but one.

Then explain how God has a God with another God over there?

 

[Shiranui117]

Then explain how God has a God with another God over there?

I do not need to explain that, because there is only ONE God. If you think there are three separate gods, that's your problem, not mine. Not three gods, but ONE God. This is and has always been the Trinitarian position. We have NEVER said that there are three separate gods, not ever, not once in all of history. We have NEVER said that "God has a God with another God over there." Tritheism is in no way, shape or form either Trinitarian or Orthodox. It is simply paganism. And we Christians are not pagans, nor have we ever been, nor will we ever be.

 

[kjw47]

I do not need to explain that, because there is only ONE God. If you think there are three separate gods, that's your problem, not mine. Not three gods, but ONE God. This is and has always been the Trinitarian position. We have NEVER said that there are three separate gods, not ever, not once in all of history. We have NEVER said that "God has a God with another God over there." Tritheism is in no way, shape or form either Trinitarian or Orthodox. It is simply paganism. And we Christians are not pagans, nor have we ever been, nor will we ever be.

Gods word teaches--- No man has ever seen God--- Man has seen Jesus--- thus 2+2 = Jesus is not God. ---Jesus has a God-John 20:17---Do you love Jesus???? Listen to him.

 

[Shiranui117]

Gods word teaches--- No man has ever seen God--- Man has seen Jesus--- thus 2+2 = Jesus is not God. ---Jesus has a God-John 20:17---Do you love Jesus???? Listen to him.

Jesus teaches that he who has seen Him has seen the Father.

Gospel of John, chapter 14:
7 If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.”
8 Philip *said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus *said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.

So therefore, those who have seen Christ, have seen God. Do you love Jesus? Listen to Him.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Jesus teaches that he who has seen Him has seen the Father.

.

And as I have shown in another thread with sources, Jesus was a Mirror, who the image of God was manifested in the Mirror. Therefore whoever has seen Jesus, has seen the Father. Just as the Sun, that its image is manifested in a Mirror and if you see the Mirror, you see the Sun in the Mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun moved down from sky into Mirror. Likewise the meaning of Jesus being Mirror, showing the image of God, is not that God has moved from heaven into body of Jesus. It means the Will of God and all His attributes such as power, glory and knowledge has appeared in a Mirror perfectly, and whoever has seen Jesus has seen the Father.

 

[Shiranui117]

And as I have shown in another thread with sources, Jesus was a Mirror, who the image of God was manifested in the Mirror. Therefore whoever has seen Jesus, has seen the Father. Just as the Sun, that its image is manifested in a Mirror and if you see the Mirror, you see the Sun in the Mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun moved down from sky into Mirror. Likewise the meaning of Jesus being Mirror, showing the image of God, is not that God has moved from heaven into body of Jesus. It means the Will of God and all His attributes such as power, glory and knowledge has appeared in a Mirror perfectly, and whoever has seen Jesus has seen the Father.

Thanks for re-opening this discussion; I was actually thinking about it a while ago, and wanted to discuss this subject more thoroughly with you. And maybe you could provide those resources again; I forget where that was.

With all due respect, the Gospels and the Epistles paint a different story. Yes, Jesus is the image of the invisible God, and He does reflect the Father's glory. Yet Jesus Himself is filled with the glory of the Father; for all that the Father has, the Son has also. Jesus existed before the world (John 17:5)--that is, Jesus existed before all of creation. And we see that it is Jesus Himself Who created the world (John 1:3).

So, while Jesus is indeed a mirror of the Father's glory, He is far more than just that, as John 1:1 states. Jesus is the Word of God (which is in fact God) that became flesh. Why else is it prophesied in Isaiah 7, that Jesus would be called "Immanuel", that is, "God is with us"? It is because God became flesh and dwelt among us. Jesus is not God in a metaphorical sense, but in reality.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Thanks for re-opening this discussion; I was actually thinking about it a while ago, and wanted to discuss this subject more thoroughly with you. And maybe you could provide those resources again; I forget where that was.

Sure, my pleasure.

With all due respect, the Gospels and the Epistles paint a different story.

Ok, let's see. I believe everything can be well explained with the Mirror Analogy.

Yes, Jesus is the image of the invisible God, and He does reflect the Father's glory. Yet Jesus Himself is filled with the glory of the Father; for all that the Father has, the Son has also.

That All belongs to Father belongs to Jesus, means, All the Attributes and Qualities of God, such as Power, Glory and knowledge have manifested in Jesus. Again going back to the Mirror and Sun analogy; if We say the Light that comes from the Mirror, belongs to the Sun it is True.

Jesus existed before the world (John 17:5)--that is, Jesus existed before all of creation. And we see that it is Jesus Himself Who created the world (John 1:3).

So, while Jesus is indeed a mirror of the Father's glory, He is far more than just that, as John 1:1 states. Jesus is the Word of God (which is in fact God) that became flesh. Why else is it prophesied in Isaiah 7, that Jesus would be called "Immanuel", that is, "God is with us"? It is because God became flesh and dwelt among us. Jesus is not God in a metaphorical sense, but in reality.

With regards to the Sources, here they are:

The document called 1 Clement, a letter from the Roman congregation to that at Corinth uses the language of the biblical book of Hebrews to portray Jesus as the reflection of God's splendor, the "mirror" of "God's... transcendent face" (1 Clement 36) and the "scepter of God's majesty" (1 Clement 16.2). A somewhat later writing from Rome, The Shepherd of Hermas, combines the idea of "the holy pre-existent Spirit which created the whole creation" (Similitudes 5.6) with the picture of Jesus as the suffering and exalted servant.
http://www.theologywebsite.com/history/christologies.shtml




"1Clem 35:11
Now understand ye these things, ye that forget God, lest at any
time He seize you as a lion, and there be none to deliver.

1Clem 35:12
The sacrifice of praise shall glorify Me, and there is the way
wherein I will show him the salvation of God.

1Clem 36:1
This is the way, dearly beloved, wherein we found our salvation,
even Jesus Christ the High priest of our offerings, the Guardian and
Helper of our weakness.

1Clem 36:2
Through Him let us look steadfastly unto the heights of the heavens;
through Him we behold as in a mirror His faultless and most excellent
visage; through Him the eyes of our hearts were opened; through Him
our foolish and darkened mind springeth up unto the light; through
Him the Master willed that we should taste of the immortal knowledge
Who being the brightness of His majesty is so much greater than
angels, as He hath inherited a more excellent name."
First Clement: Clement of Rome



Also:

the great theologian Origen (185-254 C.E.), citing the Book of Wisdom, called Christ 'the spotless mirror' of God's workings (Origen, On First Principles 26).
http://www.ts.mu.edu/readers/content/pdf/60/60.4/60.4.5.pdf


Also:

"and we all, with unvailed face, the glory of the Lord beholding in a mirror, to the same image are being transformed, from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord." 2 cori 3-18

Also:

"For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." 1 Cor. 13:22

So, Jesus who was like a Mirror, showing the image of God, but as Paul alluded, at the end we see God face to face. This is similar to what Augustine said.

The point from all the above is, the early Christians explained the relation between The Father and Jesus, as a Light of Wisdom and Knowledge that is reflected in a Mirror (The Christ).

Now, with regards to your comment that Jesus existed always. I understand this in these ways:

Let's say, had John the Baptist in His time have said: "In previous Ages I was there". This would be correct because in a spiritual sense Elijah was John according to the scriptures and He was there in the Age of Moses. Yet the 'physical' presence of John did not exist. But a person with the same Qualities existed. Like the rose flower that appears this spring, is the return of the flower in the last year spring, yet with respect to the particles is not. But since it has same Qualities, beauty, smell...then we can say this flower existed before.
Likewise the physical presence of Jesus did not exist before, but His spiritual Qualities which are the Manifestation of Qualities of God always existed.
Just as the Mirror example. If we say the Sun that has appeared in the Mirror existed in previous ages, it is True, but yet the Mirror did not exist before.
Therefore Should God say, before Abraham I am, His words are Manifested through the Mirror. Jesus was the Light. But this Light was the Light of God that was reflected through the Mirror. Likewise Jesus was the Word of God, meaning that the Word of God was revealed by Him. Therefore if We say Jesus was a New Moses, it is True, as it was prophesied that a Prophet Like Him shall come among the Israelites. Likewise in Bible symbology we see Glory of God was Manifested by Moses and Jesus, as "their faces glow as the Sun".

And as a matter of fact such concept also exist in other Religions such as Buddhism and Hinduism. For example Buddha said:

'I am not the first Buddha to come upon this earth; nor shall I be the last. Previously, there were many Buddhas who appeared in this world. In due time, another Buddha will arise in this world, within this world cycle.'

What Buddhists Believe - The Future Buddha

Therefore Buddha also said He always existed. You can find similar sayings from Krishna, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.
And Yes, I understand that the Trinity is different and believes Jesus Himself always existed, not just His Type. But The Trinity is NOT from early Christianity, nor the Term 'Trinity' is in Bible, But the analogy of 'Mirror' is found in early Christianity and Bible.

The Holy Spirit can be understood with analogy of the 'Rays of the Sun'.. Just as the Rays of the Sun, precede from the Sun, the Holy Spirit precedes from God. Through the Holy Spirit the creative Will of God is expressed. Therefore when the Light is reflected by the Mirror, it can be said this same Light is the Holy Spirit who God created the World by it. But not that this same Mirror created the World. That it is written in NT, by Him the World is created is a reference to the Light and Image of God manifested in the Mirror, and not the Mirror itself.

 

[Jensen]

Hello Icebuddy, it has been rather interesting reading so far. Maybe later I will make a comment if it is okay. Has been awhile hasn't it.....hope all is great with you. Will do more reading for now.

Jensen

 

[kjw47]

And as I have shown in another thread with sources, Jesus was a Mirror, who the image of God was manifested in the Mirror. Therefore whoever has seen Jesus, has seen the Father. Just as the Sun, that its image is manifested in a Mirror and if you see the Mirror, you see the Sun in the Mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun moved down from sky into Mirror. Likewise the meaning of Jesus being Mirror, showing the image of God, is not that God has moved from heaven into body of Jesus. It means the Will of God and all His attributes such as power, glory and knowledge has appeared in a Mirror perfectly, and whoever has seen Jesus has seen the Father.

Yes--the image is never the real article--Jesus lived to do his God and Fathers will--24/7-- Everything Jesus did is what the Father does and teaches.

 

[kjw47]

Jesus teaches that he who has seen Him has seen the Father.

Gospel of John, chapter 14:
7 If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.”
8 Philip *said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus *said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.

So therefore, those who have seen Christ, have seen God. Do you love Jesus? Listen to Him.

They saw what God is and teaches and believes--no man has ever seen( The being God)--- Jesus was his image--an image is never the real thing.

 

[Jensen]

Icebuddy, I do not see a trinity in any of these verses. They do not back a belief that just isn’t there. I will explain what I see here, a verse at a time.

1 Corinthians 8:6

King James Version (KJV)

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

The above verse does not support the trinity, not even a little bit. It says that there is but one God, the Father…….and mentioned the one Lord Jesus Christ separately, and doesn’t call him the one God. No, not at all, just that the one God is the Father, and we know that Trinitarians do not believe that Jesus is the Father. There is no support for the trinity here.

John 5:30

King James Version (KJV)

30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


Jesus here says that he can do nothing on his own, that he does the will of the
Father and we know that he is not the Father, and that Trinitarians do not believe he is the Father, so there is nothing here that supports a trinity. Why list verses that do not support what you are proposing.




2 Corinthians 4:4

King James Version (KJV)

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

This also only says that he is the image of God, and not that he is God. This verse also does not say that Jesus is God. It’s just not there. If he is God, why not just state that he is God, but it doesn’t because being the image is just that an image and not the original. Take it for what it actually says.


Colossians 1:15

King James Version (KJV)

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

You do not like Jesus being referred as a creature, but here it uses just that saying that he is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn. I wonder if it isn’t because he is the firstborn of every creature; that is a created being, a man, the Messiah, the Son of God. This does not make him God anymore than it makes us God when we are referred to as Sons of God in the bible. Jesus although being a man is not a mere man or a mere created creature because he was elevated to be the Savior, Christ, Son of God, by God. So although he is not God, he is not lessened because of it as some would argue. There is no support for a trinity here either.


Hebrews 1:3

King James Version (KJV)

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

The verse above also does not support a trinity. It say that he is the image of his person, meaning God, and when he purged us of our sins sat on the right hand of the Majesty on high….that would be God. It doesn’t even begin to say that he became God, or that he became the Majesty on high. He remains the Son. (We are sons of God also but do not become God, and so neither does Jesus.)

John 14:7

King James Version (KJV)
John 14:7

King James Version (KJV)
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

This does not support a trinity either as Trinitarians do not believe he is the Father although it does say if ye had known me ye should have known my Father, and have seen him. He still does not say he is the Father here, or that he (Jesus) is God.

John 17:3

King James Version (KJV)

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee (the thee here is God,)
the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou (the thou here is God) hast sent.

This was spoken by Jesus and is so apparent that he is speaking to another, that is God, and not himself, he list himself as the one sent by the only true God. He does not refer to himself as God, but only the “thee” and “thou” that he is speaking to. There is no trinity here, and nothing saying that Jesus is also God.

Titus 2:13-15

King James Version (KJV)

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.



Here again it is so obviously referring to the great God and our Savior as two separate individuals, and does not say that Jesus is God or one of a trinity. It goes on to speak of Jesus giving himself for us, redeeming us, and purifying unto himself good people; God did not give himself as God can not die, as he would not be eternal if he did; the context isn’t about him (Jesus) being God, or one of a trinity, and so does not support a trinity.

John 15:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

As for this verse it doesn’t say that Jesus laid down his life for God and therefore if he hadn’t God wouldn’t be loved; or that God does not have love to give for those that Jesus laid down his life for. God has had love from the beginning of all things, as he gave it when he created us, and has received it from his created, those that do love him. Again this does not support a trinity, nor is it right or necessary to believe in a trinity to believe in God and his Son. There never has been a trinity in the OT or in Judaism which is where we came to know God from, nor is it taught in the NT. If it did, which I do not believe it does, it would be teaching a different God and not the one that Jesus as a Jew believed in and worshipped.

Jensen

 

[Jensen]

Baha'i doesn't believe in the Trinity? Would like to ask one question, a short answer will do. Is the Baha'i faith Christian? I ask because I haven't studied up on this faith.

Jensen