The Trinity

[InvestigateTruth]

Baha'i doesn't believe in the Trinity? Would like to ask one question, a short answer will do. Is the Baha'i faith Christian? I ask because I haven't studied up on this faith.

Jensen

Baha'is believe in Bible, but they believe that Book was revealed for previous Ages. In each Age a Manifestation of God appears who reveals the Will and Attributes of God again, and brings new teachings suitable for that Age. So, for example after Hebrew Scriptures, the Christian NT, then Quran, and in this Age Baha'i Scriptures.
Yes, Baha'is believe in Holy Spirit, The Father and the Son, but they don't have the same interpretation as Trinity. I hope I answered your questions.

 

[Jensen]

Thanks very much, I'll have to take some time and learn more about it.

Jensen

 

[icebuddy]

Gods word teaches--- No man has ever seen God--- Man has seen Jesus--- thus 2+2 = Jesus is not God. --

I have a hard time listening to people that say no-one has seen God and apply plain sight to this. The Greek word for seen has the meaning of to "behold, perceive, learn by looking. No one can behold God.

**Using this same Logic, then Jehovah cannot be God either. Since Moses Saw Him, Abraham saw him, and 70 others... Ex 24:9-10

READ: 3John 1:11 in your own bible. The word "Seen God" has a different meaning than you are explaining here. Please explain 3 John 1:11 and see for yourself...

-Jesus has a God-John 20:17---Do you love Jesus???? Listen to him.

Again, You are focused upon Jesus in his emptied state of existence. The Father even says Jesus is Jehovah to explain. Read Hebrews 1:10-12 with Ps 102:25-27

Jer 23:5-6 calls Jesus "Jehovah our Righteousness"


Read Isaiah 44:6-8 and ask these Questions:
Who is the Redeemer?
Who is 1st and Last?
Who is Like Jehovah?
Who is the Rock?

** Jesus is the Redeemer, Jesus is 1st and Last, Jesus is exactly expressing the Father, Jesus is the Rock (read 1 Cor 10:1-4) Did Jehovah forget that he was going to say Jesus is the Rock or did he imply that Jesus is also Jehovah with him?

In Love

 

[icebuddy]

And as I have shown in another thread with sources, Jesus was a Mirror, who the image of God was manifested in the Mirror. Therefore whoever has seen Jesus, has seen the Father. Just as the Sun, that its image is manifested in a Mirror and if you see the Mirror, you see the Sun in the Mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun moved down from sky into Mirror. Likewise the meaning of Jesus being Mirror, showing the image of God, is not that God has moved from heaven into body of Jesus. It means the Will of God and all His attributes such as power, glory and knowledge has appeared in a Mirror perfectly, and whoever has seen Jesus has seen the Father.

Also note, that Jesus had to empty himself to become this perfect Image. The Father knew this and tells us in Hebrews 1:10-12 that Jesus is the one spoke about in Psalm 102:25-27. Can this be said about anyone but God?

I understand that the Trinity is different and believes Jesus Himself always existed, not just His Type. But The Trinity is NOT from early Christianity, nor the Term 'Trinity' is in Bible, But the analogy of 'Mirror' is found in early Christianity and Bible.

The word Trinity was developed to explain what already has existed. Just as Science had to come up with a word to explain Time, Space, and matter called the Universe. The universe has its existence even before the word was invented to explain it...


in Love

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Also note, that Jesus had to empty himself to become this perfect Image. The Father knew this and tells us in Hebrews 1:10-12 that Jesus is the one spoke about in Psalm 102:25-27. Can this be said about anyone but God?

in Love

Yes it can be said to God and to Manifestations of God.
As I explained in my previous posts, the Manifestation of God reveal all the Attributes of God into the World. They are like a Mirror showing the image of God fully and perfectly. Whatever they say, is what God says. They bear all the names of God such as "the first and the last", and if it was said by Him all things are created it is true, because He is the image of God. It is like a Mirror showing the image of the Sun, so if we pointed to the Image of the Sun in the Mirror and say, by this all the World received light from beginning it is true. But this Mirror did not exist from beginning, but that Sun did.
......And No, I disagree that Jesus had to empty Himself. From the moment He was born, He was who He was. There was no change in Him, for He as the Manifestation of God, was the Manifestation of "I the Lord do not change".

 

[icebuddy]

Yes--the image is never the real article--Jesus lived to do his God and Fathers will--24/7-- Everything Jesus did is what the Father does and teaches.

Again, Dont forget that Jesus Emptied himself to become this Image for us. The Trinitarian belief is that Jesus was God and with God before he emptied "Himself" in a humbled fashion. Showing Gods greatest love for us and dieing a mans death in our place. The Father points out in scripture that this Jesus is the Rock of the Old Testament and doesnt want us to forget the great sacrifice Jesus has done for us. As humans we see this a weakness and submission, yet God tells us that this is godliness.(The Ways of God) That is why the Jews missed their savior. They where not expecting a submissive King...

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The word Trinity was developed to explain what already has existed. Just as Science had to come up with a word to explain Time, Space, and matter called the Universe. The universe has its existence even before the word was invented to explain it...


in Love

But Trinity is not just a Word. It is a doctrine that did not exist before. Yes, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are mentioned in Bible, but the way the Bible explains the relationship and station of each one of these Three, is different than Trinity doctrine.......The Doctrine of Trinity does not take into account the concept of Mirror which so clearly reconciles and explains the concept of 'image of God' and One God, in its explanation and instead has invented a relationship of its own, which logically is not reconcilable and contradict with Hebrew teachings.

 

[icebuddy]

They saw what God is and teaches and believes--no man has ever seen( The being God)--- Jesus was his image--an image is never the real thing.

old Testament passages say that over 70 people have seen God... The Greek word for "Seen God" means to behold or understand by sight. Clearly no one can truly See God or See Jesus for that matter in all his Glory. But God and/or Jesus can veil themselves to us or people in both the Old Testament and the New...

In Love

 

[icebuddy]

Icebuddy, I do not see a trinity in any of these verses. They do not back a belief that just isn’t there. I will explain what I see here, a verse at a time.

1 Corinthians 8:6

King James Version (KJV)

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

The above verse does not support the trinity, not even a little bit. It says that there is but one God, the Father…….and mentioned the one Lord Jesus Christ separately, and doesn’t call him the one God. No, not at all, just that the one God is the Father, and we know that Trinitarians do not believe that Jesus is the Father. There is no support for the trinity here.

Jensen, What I believe is many peoples problem is that they see the Greek word "and" to say it separates God from Jesus when it does the exact opposite. For example: If you read in the OT that Jehovah is God and Savior, do you use your same thoughts and say that God is not savior because of the word "AND" is in between the two? (God "and" Savior) I hear many JW (not sure if you converted) say Lord Jehovah over the years, yet should we say hes not Lord because the bible says there is only one Lord Jesus? No, of course not... To Say Jesus is Not God because of this verse is the exact same. Not only is Jesus called the "Everlasting Father" at Is 9:6

Read Revelation 4:11 where it says worthy is Lord and God and explains exactly what 1 Cor 8:6 is saying. Do you exclude Jesus when you read this? What is interesting is that We just read a verse that says there is only One Lord Jesus and the JW bible uses that very word for Lord to express the name Jehovah. Now read Rev 5:12-14... Do you find yourself including Jesus or excluding Jesus in this? (john 5:23)

John 5:30

King James Version (KJV)

30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


Jesus here says that he can do nothing on his own, that he does the will of the
Father and we know that he is not the Father, and that Trinitarians do not believe he is the Father, so there is nothing here that supports a trinity. Why list verses that do not support what you are proposing.

With all this Mirror and Image talk going on, ask yourself. Can the Image in the Mirror do anything different from what you do looking into it? Thay is why the Jews looked to stone Jesus, for who else can do the works of God, but God himself. Also right in the middle of all of this is John 5:23. Does one truly honor Jesus the same as the Father? Look up the word Honor at this passage. Do you fix the same value upon Jesus as you do the Father?

2 Corinthians 4:4

King James Version (KJV)

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

This also only says that he is the image of God, and not that he is God. This verse also does not say that Jesus is God. It’s just not there. If he is God, why not just state that he is God, but it doesn’t because being the image is just that an image and not the original. Take it for what it actually says.

Blinded By Satan - Ask yourself, who is being blinded by satan? Is satan trying to lift Jesus up or tear him down? When we die, do you think God will tell someone like myself that I over valued Jesus, that I should not of looked at the Image of God as I do God himself? That I just over honored Jesus? Now think of the opposite... Can one under value Jesus, not worship Gods image, and so-forth...?

Out of Time, but will continue after going to the park with kids. Just remember that Im not writing these messages out of anger or hate. Jesus loves you as much as me or anyone for that matter... i know this and will try never to forget this...

In Love

 

[icebuddy]

Colossians 1:15

King James Version (KJV)

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

You do not like Jesus being referred as a creature, but here it uses just that saying that he is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn. I wonder if it isn’t because he is the firstborn of every creature; that is a created being, a man, the Messiah, the Son of God. This does not make him God anymore than it makes us God when we are referred to as Sons of God in the bible. Jesus although being a man is not a mere man or a mere created creature because he was elevated to be the Savior, Christ, Son of God, by God. So although he is not God, he is not lessened because of it as some would argue. There is no support for a trinity here either.

Jensen,
it is the Trinitarian belief that Jesus has the firstborn rights over all creation, being that he created and saved creation. The word "Born" only exists as an earthly birth. Jesus became Marys and the Fathers firstborn son (Luke 2:7) at his earthly birth. Hebrews 1:5-6 shows that Angels where already present when Jesus becomes the Fathers Firstborn. (Showing an earthly event) We also read that the Father says "Today" I became your Father, showing The Earth and Sun and all of creation was already made when Jesus became the Fathers Firstborn some 2014 years ago. This all happens after Jesus emptied himself (Ps 22:10)

Jesus is called "Firstborn" to show his rank over creation (Mt 28:18) in which Jesus Created. Col 1:16 explains why he is called Firstborn and Col 1:18 sums it all up. The term "Firstborn" is a male Jewish term to indicate who is supreme. (Not Birth order) Women are never called Firstborn unless they have NO brothers to claim it. If you read Ps 89:26-27 you will see that one is appointed Firstborn and in this case, King David is the last son of Jesse and is the Firstborn son. Also if the writer want to mean First Created, he would of wrote that and he didnt. Firstborn is a heirship title and nothing else in a Jewish Family. (Rom 8:29)

Hebrews 1:3

King James Version (KJV)

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

The verse above also does not support a trinity. It say that he is the image of his person, meaning God, and when he purged us of our sins sat on the right hand of the Majesty on high….that would be God. It doesn’t even begin to say that he became God, or that he became the Majesty on high. He remains the Son. (We are sons of God also but do not become God, and so neither does Jesus.)

Remember that Jesus Emptied himself in order that any of this would be possible. Jesus expresses the Father fully and gets the same honor. So to look to Jesus and see anything but God would be saying he isnt expressing the Father fully and complete. Read Is 14:12-14 The god of this world, satan, was trying to be like god and that became his downfall. Jesus is "Like God" in the same way satan was trying to be, Jesus is God. The OT says Jehovah wont share his Glory, but Jesus Shares it. The OT says there is no other Rock but Jehovah, yet the NT says Jesus is the Rock. The list piles up higher and higher showing Jesus is more than just an angel falling short of God.

Ask yourself: Does my Jesus Fully and exactly express God the Father 100% or does he fall short in some way?

John 14:7

King James Version (KJV)
John 14:7

King James Version (KJV)
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

This does not support a trinity either as Trinitarians do not believe he is the Father although it does say if ye had known me ye should have known my Father, and have seen him. He still does not say he is the Father here, or that he (Jesus) is God.

To see Jesus is to see the Father because Jesus is the Image of God (2cor4:4/Col1:15) and is exactly the same (Heb 1:3/Gen 1:26) Jesus is God veiled with Flesh (Col 2:19/ Phil 2:7) Never do we see a passage saying Jesus is Not God or Not Worthy or Not to be Worshiped. However, we are warned over and over not to be blinded by the Devil and not to under value Jesus... Never do we see anyone lifting Jesus up too high...

Continue

 

[icebuddy]

John 17:3

King James Version (KJV)

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee (the thee here is God,)
the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou (the thou here is God) hast sent.

This was spoken by Jesus and is so apparent that he is speaking to another, that is God, and not himself, he list himself as the one sent by the only true God. He does not refer to himself as God, but only the “thee” and “thou” that he is speaking to. There is no trinity here, and nothing saying that Jesus is also God.

Again you see the word "AND" and use this word to drive a wedge between God the Father and Jesus. Ask yourself a question: To have eternal life is to Know God and a creature? Or Just God? Would a creature ask to be glorified with God? Something the OT says would not happen and God would not share his glory... Notice that Jesus is part of the equation to have eternal life. The Greek word "AND" means also, even, both, likewise. Meaning Jesus is True God and Savior as Jehovah of the Old Testament was both God and Savior. Read Titus 2:13-15 where it calls Jesus God and Savior. Ask yourself, whos going to appear? I find it interesting that many will say no one can see God, yet here we are awaiting the appearing of who? Clearly Jesus to me...

Titus 2:13-15

King James Version (KJV)

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.



Here again it is so obviously referring to the great God and our Savior as two separate individuals, and does not say that Jesus is God or one of a trinity. It goes on to speak of Jesus giving himself for us, redeeming us, and purifying unto himself good people; God did not give himself as God can not die, as he would not be eternal if he did; the context isn’t about him (Jesus) being God, or one of a trinity, and so does not support a trinity.

Jensen, When we read the OT we see Jehovah as God and Savior, Creator, none like him, no one created with him for he was alone, will not share his Glory with another, and that no one is like him or even close. Yet Jesus is everything that God is and God tells us is Jehovah in the OT with him. That is why we see Jesus creating, sharing Gods glory, savior, and more... You say God cannot die, but what is death in the flesh to a spirit who cannot die? Jesus only died in the flesh, his spirit went to be with the Father. How can you know if Jesus's spirit was dead or non-existant? Or how could you know that Jesus wasnt aware in spirit form as he has always been before becoming flesh.

Again, I find it interesting that you would think no one can see God, yet here it says we wait for the appearing of our Great God and Savior Jesus. how do you think he will appear? I picked up the NWT and they mangled this passage. So I pick up the KIT of the NWT and it reads perfect. If you have a KIT, look up Titus 2:13 and see how its writen and then look up 2 peter 3:18 to see how the NWT doesnt translate equally...

John 15:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

As for this verse it doesn’t say that Jesus laid down his life for God and therefore if he hadn’t God wouldn’t be loved; or that God does not have love to give for those that Jesus laid down his life for. God has had love from the beginning of all things, as he gave it when he created us, and has received it from his created, those that do love him. Again this does not support a trinity, nor is it right or necessary to believe in a trinity to believe in God and his Son. There never has been a trinity in the OT or in Judaism which is where we came to know God from, nor is it taught in the NT. If it did, which I do not believe it does, it would be teaching a different God and not the one that Jesus as a Jew believed in and worshipped.

God is Love... Who did he love before anything was created? It is the Trinitarian belief that the Father, Eternal Word(1John 1:1-6), and Holy Spirit created us out of their Love. Just as a man and woman have kids out of their Love. That the Eternal Word, became flesh to save Gods creation. You say there has never been a Trinity in the OT and that is why Jews today miss who Jesus is. Do me a favor:

Ask any Jew who their Rock is (Never would they say anyone but God)
Ask a Jew who followed them as a cloud in the OT. They will say GOD
Ask them if anyone but God Created
Ask them if anyone could share in Gods Glory?
Ask them if anyone is like God?
The list goes on and on....

Test the Spirits of those teaching you. Would they say or Call Jesus, "Jehovah our Righteousness" or would that be a problem? You know me and what I would say... Read Jer 23:5-6

What it comes down to is this: Can one lift Jesus up too High or Can one under estimate who Jesus is? What does the bible say? All the warnings are not to be blinded of seeing. I will continue to warn those who look at the image of God and say, "Not God" not my Worship... Be Careful ... Never do we see a warning not to Worship Gods Image and treat his true image as anything but God himself. So, do you honor Jesus as you honor the Father? I only point these things out to rattle your brain to see what I see.

In Love

 

[kjw47]

Again, Dont forget that Jesus Emptied himself to become this Image for us. The Trinitarian belief is that Jesus was God and with God before he emptied "Himself" in a humbled fashion. Showing Gods greatest love for us and dieing a mans death in our place. The Father points out in scripture that this Jesus is the Rock of the Old Testament and doesnt want us to forget the great sacrifice Jesus has done for us. As humans we see this a weakness and submission, yet God tells us that this is godliness.(The Ways of God) That is why the Jews missed their savior. They where not expecting a submissive King...

Daniel 12:1-- is who stood up for men.

 

[icebuddy]

......And No, I disagree that Jesus had to empty Himself. From the moment He was born, He was who He was. There was no change in Him, for He as the Manifestation of God, was the Manifestation of "I the Lord do not change".

I understand your thoughts on Jesus reflecting the Father as in a mirror. But my thoughts are that no created being could uphold this refection. Do you believe Jesus to be created?

As for Philippians 2:5-8, how do you see verse 7. Some bibles say Jesus Emptied, some say Made himself nothing, some say veil himself with flesh... Whats your thoughts? My thinking is that We couldnt see this image until this event happened

In Love

 

[icebuddy]

But Trinity is not just a Word. It is a doctrine that did not exist before. Yes, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are mentioned in Bible, but the way the Bible explains the relationship and station of each one of these Three, is different than Trinity doctrine.......The Doctrine of Trinity does not take into account the concept of Mirror which so clearly reconciles and explains the concept of 'image of God' and One God, in its explanation and instead has invented a relationship of its own, which logically is not reconcilable and contradict with Hebrew teachings.

All you need to do is read John 20:28 and Thomas Calling Jesus My God and My Lord directly to Jesus as well as John 1:1 and many more. You might not agree with it, but its been around way before the word Trinity was used. The doctrine was developed to clear up some issues, just as a JW might say Jesus is Micheal the archangel and put it as their truth. I dont see this doctrine early on, but it exists in the WTBS belief today. Not saying you are a JW, just expressing how things develop inside organized religions.

The questions unanswered by many here, as if they dont see them are:
1. Is Jesus True God or not?
2. Can one lift Jesus up too high?
3. Do you look to the Image of God and say "Not God, Not my Worship"?

in Love

 

[Shiranui117]

They saw what God is and teaches and believes--no man has ever seen( The being God)--- Jesus was his image--an image is never the real thing.

No one has ever seen God in His essence--and yet Moses saw God's "back."

John 14:9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Knowing Christ means knowing the Father. This cannot be so, unless Jesus is one in being, one in essence and one in nature with the Father.

Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God--the invisible God made visible.

 

[kjw47]

No one has ever seen God in His essence--and yet Moses saw God's "back."

John 14:9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Knowing Christ means knowing the Father. This cannot be so, unless Jesus is one in being, one in essence and one in nature with the Father.

Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God--the invisible God made visible.

Reality---An image is NEVER the real thing.

They saw the Father because Jesus did the Fathers will 24/7---

God would never come here and let mortals do what they did to Jesus, to him--he is to holy,holy,holy.

 

[Shiranui117]

Reality---An image is NEVER the real thing.

They saw the Father because Jesus did the Fathers will 24/7---

God would never come here and let mortals do what they did to Jesus, to him--he is to holy,holy,holy.

God is a humble God that wills that all men be saved, and is willing to do whatever it takes to make us come to our senses and bring us back. If Jesus is God, then this proves that God is the most loving God you can possibly imagine. He is Who is above all things is willing to lower Himself to our level. The Almighty is willing to be born as a weak and helpless child. The Omniscient is willing to learn as a small child. The Impassible is willing to suffer for us in the flesh. The Immortal is willing to die for us and trample down death by His death.

Your view of God makes Him a God who cares more about keeping His white gloves clean than about saving His creation.

Reality: Jesus is the image of the invisible God, because He is God made visible.

If I do the will of my employer, does that mean that people see my employer 24/7? No, it means they see what my employer wants me to do.

 

[Jensen]

Jensen, What I believe is many peoples problem is that they see the Greek word "and" to say it separates God from Jesus when it does the exact opposite. For example: If you read in the OT that Jehovah is God and Savior, do you use your same thoughts and say that God is not savior because of the word "AND" is in between the two? (God "and" Savior) I hear many JW (not sure if you converted) say Lord Jehovah over the years, yet should we say hes not Lord because the bible says there is only one Lord Jesus? No, of course not... To Say Jesus is Not God because of this verse is the exact same. Not only is Jesus called the "Everlasting Father" at Is 9:6

Read Revelation 4:11 where it says worthy is Lord and God and explains exactly what 1 Cor 8:6 is saying. Do you exclude Jesus when you read this? What is interesting is that We just read a verse that says there is only One Lord Jesus and the JW bible uses that very word for Lord to express the name Jehovah. Now read Rev 5:12-14... Do you find yourself including Jesus or excluding Jesus in this? (john 5:23)



With all this Mirror and Image talk going on, ask yourself. Can the Image in the Mirror do anything different from what you do looking into it? Thay is why the Jews looked to stone Jesus, for who else can do the works of God, but God himself. Also right in the middle of all of this is John 5:23. Does one truly honor Jesus the same as the Father? Look up the word Honor at this passage. Do you fix the same value upon Jesus as you do the Father?



Blinded By Satan - Ask yourself, who is being blinded by satan? Is satan trying to lift Jesus up or tear him down? When we die, do you think God will tell someone like myself that I over valued Jesus, that I should not of looked at the Image of God as I do God himself? That I just over honored Jesus? Now think of the opposite... Can one under value Jesus, not worship Gods image, and so-forth...?

Out of Time, but will continue after going to the park with kids. Just remember that Im not writing these messages out of anger or hate. Jesus loves you as much as me or anyone for that matter... i know this and will try never to forget this...

In Love

You said: Jensen, What I believe is many peoples problem is that they see the Greek word "and" to say it separates God from Jesus when it does the exact opposite.

Actually both. Being that they are mention separately they are two different individuals, but connected in what the context is, that is what is being written in the those verses. It would not make them the same individual though, just as if I said that John and Jill went to the store, they are connected in that it was both that went to the store, but separate being that they are mentioned each separately. Hope that makes sense.

Jesus was not the savior mentioned in the OT, as he had not come to earth yet to die for mans sins. And being that it was God who decided that his Son would die for us, God is the original savior. And so in 1 Corinthians 8:6 when it says one God, the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ, it is emphasizing that they are two different individuals.

Using verses that appear to support that the Father and Son are the same ( Is 9:6) can not be used to support the trinity being that Trinitarians do not believe that Jesus is the Father, in fact they deny that. At best those verses could be used to support Oneness if anything, yet I do not think Oneness is correct either.

Jesus being the image of God, therefore the image of the Father is all that can be taken from those verses being that Jesus himself called the Father the one true God.

Rev 2:11 is speaking about God the Father and not Jesus. Start reading further up in the Chapter and maybe you will see why I see it this way.

In most bibles where the word LORD is used all in capitals it is because the correct word for that position in the verse originally was Jehovah or Yahweh. Also, many are called Lord. God, Jesus and man have been called Lord. Being called Lord does not make one God.

Again, an image is just that an image and not the real thing.

Do I honor that Son and the Father the same? Yes, each for what and who he is, the one as God, the other as the Son of God, the Christ.

My posting 2 Corinthians 4:4 was to show again the Jesus is the image of God and that it does not say he is God or the Father. I was focusing on the third part of the verse; and not about the god of this world blinding the unbelievers, so no comment will be given by me on that subject.

I will honor both equally, but as to who and what each one is, I do not worship an image, but only God, but I do honor the Son of God. Hope you see what I am trying to say. Thanks.

I know that you are not writing your messages out of anger or hate, but because it is what you really believe, and God loves you as much as me or anyone for that matter. Thanks.

Jensen:flower2:


(it wouldn't let me use the Multi quotes option so had to do it this way, Hope that it will not be too confusing)

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I understand your thoughts on Jesus reflecting the Father as in a mirror. But my thoughts are that no created being could uphold this refection. Do you believe Jesus to be created?

Yes, I believe Jesus was created:
"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener" John 15:1

That Jesus said I came down from Heaven, or before Abraham 'I am", are related to His divine and heavenly attributes that came down from heaven and always existed, and not His individuality. Again the analogy of Mirror, which is perfectly biblical, explains it all.

The World of Creation may be divided into 5 creatures:

1. minerals
2. Plants
3. Animals
4. human
5. Manifestations of God

This is the hierarchy in which each has more power in comparison to previous level. For example the plants have power of growth but minerals do not. The animals have power of senses such as sight and hearing, but plants do not. Human has power of discovery but the animals do not. The Manifestations of God have access to the knowledge and Will of God and can reveal His Words and Attributes into the world and act as an 'intermediately' between God and mankind. The regular man cannot do this!

As for Philippians 2:5-8, how do you see verse 7. Some bibles say Jesus Emptied, some say Made himself nothing, some say veil himself with flesh... Whats your thoughts? My thinking is that We couldnt see this image until this event happened

In Love

My thought is He made Himself humble and became an obedient servant.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

All you need to do is read John 20:28 and Thomas Calling Jesus My God and My Lord directly to Jesus as well as John 1:1 and many more. You might not agree with it, but its been around way before the word Trinity was used. The doctrine was developed to clear up some issues, just as a JW might say Jesus is Micheal the archangel and put it as their truth. I dont see this doctrine early on, but it exists in the WTBS belief today. Not saying you are a JW, just expressing how things develop inside organized religions.

The questions unanswered by many here, as if they dont see them are:
1. Is Jesus True God or not?
2. Can one lift Jesus up too high?
3. Do you look to the Image of God and say "Not God, Not my Worship"?

in Love

It is perfectly fine if Jesus referred to Himself as God, for it is repeatedly shown that through Him, the Word and Attributes of God was manifested into the World. Again, If we place a Mirror in front of the Sun, what do we see inside it? We see the Sun, so if we point at it and say that is the Sun it is correct, and if we point to Mirror and say that is just a Mirror and not the Sun that is also true. Likewise Jesus said 'whoever has seen Me, has seen the Father', and He also alluded to Himself as son of man.

But according to the scriptures there is only One God. When the Image of the Sun appears in Mirror, the Sun does not move down from sky into Mirror, but its image appears in the Mirror. Likewise when it is said Jesus is the Image of God, the meaning is not that God has moved down from Heaven into Jesus, but it means His attributes and Will is Manifested in the Mirror. But with Trinity such station is not described biblically. It seems to me, trinity is playing with words, one in three, and three in one. That is illogical to me.