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The Trinity

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Well, firstly, it is good you are getting engaged with the concept of Mirror of God. I may change the order of your post a bit to reply in a relevant order:

"seeing in a mirror Darkly" is a reference to speaking in dark speeches. It means that the Will of God which was manifested in the Mirror of Jesus, was to reveal many things using figurative language and not plainly, but for the second coming He shall reveal clearly and plainly (as in face to face) as recorded in John 16:25. He said a time is coming I speak to you plainly... By this is meant the second coming of Christ, even as He said "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear", the idea is that, since in those days humanity was still in the stage of childhood, it did not have the capacity to understand more, hence Jesus simply alluded to certain things with Figurative language instead of speaking details plainly. This analogy can be seen in these words: "When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me." 1 cor. 13:11
The context doesn't refer to Jesus' "dark speeches." As you yourself say, the context refers to our own lack of understanding, not vagueness on Jesus' part. By this time, Jesus had already spoken to the Apostles plainly about Who He is, explaining all the prophecies and Scriptures that concerned Him. He also opened the minds of the Apostles to understand what was written of Him. (Luke 24:45) So 1 Corinthians 13:12 refers to our own weak and clouded perception and intellect, not our inability to understand and believe Christian teaching.

Well, the concept of Mirror is actually from the Bible, and not just from Clement and Origen.

"and we all, with unvailed face, the glory of the Lord beholding in a mirror, to the same image are being transformed, from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord." 2 cori 3-18 Also:
"For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." 1 Cor. 13:22
I can see why you chose the NIV; it's a very malleable translation that can be used to support a great many positions, but I'd like to compare how the NIV translates it with how a lot of other translations render the verse. Plus, that's verse 12, not 22.

For now we see in a mirror [e]dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. (NASB)
Lit[erally] in a riddle

For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. (ESV)

In the same way, we can see and understand only a little about God now, as if we were peering at his reflection in a poor mirror; but someday we are going to see him in his completeness, face-to-face. Now all that I know is hazy and blurred, but then I will see everything clearly, just as clearly as God sees into my heart right now. (Living Bible)

For the present we are looking through a mirror obscurely, but then face to face. Now I know in part then I will know fully just as I have been fully known. (Mounce Reverse-Interlinear New Testament) (this one has the Greek right next to it, but the formatting messed up when I copied and pasted)

For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known. (NKJV)

For now we see in a mirror, dimly,[b] but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known. (NRSV)
b Gk in a riddle

So as you can see, "seeing in a mirror dimly" refers to our inability to clearly perceive the things of God due to our fallen senses. 1 Corinthians 13:12 does not support the Baha'i idea of "mirror."
By Seeing in a Mirror in the above verses, is meant seeing the Manifestation of God revealing the Word and Will of God, as well as All His Attributes such as Glory of God, through His image that was manifested in the Mirror being Jesus. In fact the term 'image of God', means when an image is manifested in a Mirror. What does an image mean? It would not mean a dead image as a paint, but it means a living image, as the image of living God such as appears in a mirror to manifest His Live Will.
"Manifestation" can have two different meanings, yes. But in the case of Jesus, Who is the Logos of God (and therefore God according to John 1:1) made flesh (John 1:14), it is clear that in this case, "manifestation" means "something previously invisible and intangible appearing and becoming visible and tangible".

In fact these are the verses that Clement and Origen must have got the idea of 'Mirror' being Jesus.
I have already addressed each of these verses twice now, IIRC.
 
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Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
The problem I see here with Trinity is not just the word Trinity. It is the concept of 'incarnation' as opposed to 'Image' and 'Mirror'. This is exactly where Trinity deviates from original Biblical Teachings. Here I would like to get your attention to the usage of the word 'incarnation' in your post, which really comes from Trinity and not Bible.
When we place a Mirror in front of the Sun, its image appears in the Mirror, but that does not mean that the Sun has moved down from sky inside the Mirror. Likewise when it is said Jesus being the Mirror showing the image of God, it does not mean God has moved down inside the body of Jesus. In both case, it means that the Light of the Sun which symbolizes Knowledge, power, glory and all the attributes of God has 'appeared' in the Mirror.
In another Words Jesus is Mirror of God and Not His incarnation. The Word of God was revealed and reflected in this Mirror. That is the meaning of 'flesh became Word'. It means reflection in the Mirror, or 'Manifestation' of the Word of God in the Perfect Human Jesus, who is the 'image of the living God'. St. Basil also explains the commandments that Jesus received by " the reflexion of an object in a mirror"
Trinity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Therefore, saying that 'the word became flesh' is no different than to say 'the Mirror became the Sun' when the Mirror is placed in front of the Sun. But the Mirror by itself without the Sun can show no image and light, as Jesus said 'by myself I can do nothing'..... Therefore, since the Sun of Truth manifested in the Mirror of Christ, His Light was reflected as Word that were the cause of enlightening, hence "the Word became Flesh".
I'm sorry, but this strikes me as being a very weak argument, and grasping at straws. When the sun reflects upon the mirror, the mirror does NOT "become the sun." Now, I'm pretty crappy at science, and I only acquitted myself in physics, but I DO know enough about light and optics to tell you that a reflective surface does not become that which it reflects--it merely takes the light of that which it reflects and passes it on. It would be completely incorrect to point to a mirror and say "This mirror is the sun." It WOULD be correct to say that you can look at the Sun in a mirror or by a mirror or through a mirror or with a mirror, but it is completely wrong to say that the mirror itself would be the sun.

Sure, you could look at yourself in the mirror and say that you are looking at yourself. But does the fact that you are reflected in the mirror make the mirror you? No. You are looking at the light being absorbed and given off by your body, that reflects in the mirror, and bounces back to your eyes.

"The Word reflecting Himself upon flesh" is completely different than "the Word becoming flesh". That is something more akin to Nestorianism, which is wholly unsupported by the Scriptures. You would have to take far too many liberties with the Biblical text to even begin to contort John 1 into supporting such a position. If "the Word became flesh" as the Scriptures say, then this can only mean that the Word was born as a person and lived as a human. If the Bible were to have said "the Word came upon flesh," or "the Word reflected Himself upon flesh" or "the Word spoke to flesh", then your interpretation would have some merit. But, the Bible doesn't say any of those things. Instead, it says the Word "became flesh."

Here is the word for "became" in Greek:

1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being 2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen 2a) of events 3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage 3a) of men appearing in public 4) to be made, finished 4a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought 5) to become, be made

And before you latch onto definition number 3, consider that the US "became" or "appeared in history/came upon the stage/arose/" in 1776. The word for "became" in Greek ultimately refers you to being something which previously you were not, or the coming into existence of something new. With the context of the Word, which has already been described as being "in the beginning" with God and before all creation, it is clear that the former sense is intended.

The word used for "flesh" in Greek here is sarx, which is one of the harshest-sounding words possible to use for the body. Here's a list of meanings:

σάρξ,n \{sarx}
1) flesh (the soft substance of the living body, which covers the bones and is permeated with blood) of both man and beasts 2) the body 2a) the body of a man 2b) used of natural or physical origin, generation or relationship 2b1) born of natural generation 2c) the sensuous nature of man, "the animal nature" 2c1) without any suggestion of depravity 2c2) the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin 2c3) the physical nature of man as subject to suffering 3) a living creature (because possessed of a body of flesh) whether man or beast 4) the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God

So, the Word "becoming flesh" means exactly that: The Word went from being bodiless, to taking on a body and dwelling among us as a man. He did not reflect Himself upon the person of Jesus as you say, therefore making Jesus in some merely metaphorical sense God, but rather, the Word Himself became flesh and was born as Jesus of Nazareth--the Word of God and Jesus Christ are one and the same individual, and one and the same person. And there is nothing you can possibly do to make John 1:14 read any other way.

Again, considering 'image of God', versus 'God' Himself. Jesus said the Father is greater than I. I do whatever and however the Father wills. This is just like Mirroring the Will of God.
The Father is greater than the Son in that the Father begets the Son. Both the Father and the Son share the same divine Will as a part of their Divine Nature.

It is not really hypothetical. I did not say John was Elijah 'incarnated'. John was the return of Elijah in a spiritual sense. Meaning the Spirit of Elijah and John were identical in terms of all qualities and power, and Jesus and Scriptures confirm that.
But also keep in mind that Elisha, who was Elijah's disciple and companion, received "a double portion" of Elijah's spirit according to the Scriptures.

When they had crossed over, Elijah said to Elisha, “Ask what I shall do for you before I am taken from you.” And Elisha said, “Please, let a double portion of your spirit be upon me.”

This is later granted to Elisha when he sees Elijah being taken up to Heaven. It's not as if John and Elijah had the same soul or anything like that, but that they were both granted the same power and spirit, even as Elisha and Elijah were.

To be fair Both Moses and Jesus are referred to as 'Lord' or 'god' in the scriptures. Both has manifested the 'sun' according to scriptures, and both did and said things that God asked them to do or to say.
Except, Moses is never identified or compared with God, except in one place, and even that one place is Moses explicitly making it a simile to explain the teamwork dynamic that Moses and Aaron would have in talking to Pharaoh. You cannot even come close to comparing Moses' case with Christ's, as Christ is called God by His own disciples, and even calls Himself God, and expresses His unity with God. Moses identified himself as God's prophet and messenger, but never anything more.

Yes Buddha means the enlightened one, but that is just a title. It is different than I get enlightened, then I be called a Buddha too. Messiah means 'anointed one', but this term alone does not show All qualities and power He had.
Yes, "Messiah" indicates the role that He would have in being the Savior of Israel, but there's so much more to Christ than that.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
The context doesn't refer to Jesus' "dark speeches." As you yourself say, the context refers to our own lack of understanding, not vagueness on Jesus' part.

I don't think you understood what 'dark speeches' are referring to. By this term is meant certain things that were revealed in Figurative Language and Metaphors in the Scriptures. These 'dark speeches' are reference to the Words of Jesus, and not us! please note.

"Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father" John 16:25

Jesus made it clear, He has been speaking in figurative language about God. He did not speak plainly. He spoke 'dark sayings'.

"In his explanation of the doctrine of the Trinity, Augustine pointed out that Jesus spoke in similitudes and would later reveal the Father more plainly.[64]"
Trinity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


But the reason He spoke in dark sayings, is because at that time humanity was not able to bear it if he was told more plainly.
But let's go back again how the Word of God was revealed by Jesus. Jesus was Like a Mirror who reflected the Word of God. When God spoke in dark sayings, this Mirror reflected those dark sayings, hence it is written 'We see in a Mirror dimly'.
Notice that the Mirror in the verse is not said to be defective or unclean. Therefore this Mirror is not a reference to imperfections of humanity. No, the Mirror is Perfect, but what is shown in it is 'dim', signifying 'dark speeches'.

By this time, Jesus had already spoken to the Apostles plainly about Who He is, explaining all the prophecies and Scriptures that concerned Him. He also opened the minds of the Apostles to understand what was written of Him. (Luke 24:45) So 1 Corinthians 13:12 refers to our own weak and clouded perception and intellect, not our inability to understand and believe Christian teaching.

I can see why you chose the NIV; it's a very malleable translation that can be used to support a great many positions, but I'd like to compare how the NIV translates it with how a lot of other translations render the verse. Plus, that's verse 12, not 22.

For now we see in a mirror [e]dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. (NASB)
Lit[erally] in a riddle

For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. (ESV)

In the same way, we can see and understand only a little about God now, as if we were peering at his reflection in a poor mirror; but someday we are going to see him in his completeness, face-to-face. Now all that I know is hazy and blurred, but then I will see everything clearly, just as clearly as God sees into my heart right now. (Living Bible)

For the present we are looking through a mirror obscurely, but then face to face. Now I know in part then I will know fully just as I have been fully known. (Mounce Reverse-Interlinear New Testament) (this one has the Greek right next to it, but the formatting messed up when I copied and pasted)

For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known. (NKJV)

For now we see in a mirror, dimly,[b] but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known. (NRSV)
b Gk in a riddle

So as you can see, "seeing in a mirror dimly" refers to our inability to clearly perceive the things of God due to our fallen senses. 1 Corinthians 13:12 does not support the Baha'i idea of "mirror."


"Manifestation" can have two different meanings, yes. But in the case of Jesus, Who is the Logos of God (and therefore God according to John 1:1) made flesh (John 1:14), it is clear that in this case, "manifestation" means "something previously invisible and intangible appearing and becoming visible and tangible".

I have already addressed each of these verses twice now, IIRC.



Regardless if you agree that the Mirror mentioned in 1 Corinthians 13:12 is Jesus or not, but do you agree that in the other verse Jesus is the Mirror? In another words, do you agree that it is Biblical that Jesus is a Mirror reflecting image of God, and that some of the Saints and great theologians in early Christianity referred to Jesus as Mirror of God correctly?
 
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Muffled

Jesus in me
And as I have shown in another thread with sources, Jesus was a Mirror, who the image of God was manifested in the Mirror. Therefore whoever has seen Jesus, has seen the Father. Just as the Sun, that its image is manifested in a Mirror and if you see the Mirror, you see the Sun in the Mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun moved down from sky into Mirror. Likewise the meaning of Jesus being Mirror, showing the image of God, is not that God has moved from heaven into body of Jesus. It means the Will of God and all His attributes such as power, glory and knowledge has appeared in a Mirror perfectly, and whoever has seen Jesus has seen the Father.

I believe the sunshine must move down to a mirror in order to be reflected. However God is not sunshine nor the sun. A spirit can move into a body and take control. That is exactly what God does in Jesus.

I believe all the attributes are present in Jesus because God is present in Jesus. It is the attributes that are the image of God since the body has no part in God.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Yes--the image is never the real article--Jesus lived to do his God and Fathers will--24/7-- Everything Jesus did is what the Father does and teaches.

I believe you are confusing materialism for spiritualism. THe image of a man in a painting is not the man. However if the man is wearing a suit instead of a tennis outfit he is not a different man and God is not a different God for inhabiting a body.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Baha'is believe in Bible, but they believe that Book was revealed for previous Ages. In each Age a Manifestation of God appears who reveals the Will and Attributes of God again, and brings new teachings suitable for that Age. So, for example after Hebrew Scriptures, the Christian NT, then Quran, and in this Age Baha'i Scriptures.
Yes, Baha'is believe in Holy Spirit, The Father and the Son, but they don't have the same interpretation as Trinity. I hope I answered your questions.

I don't believe Ba'hais are Christians. I don't even believe that Ba'hais respect the words of Jesus because they do their best to reinterpret them to mean what they wish it to mean. (I believe they do the same thing with their own scriptures and they aren't the only ones who do.)
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
I am not saying that whatever St. Basil said is the Truth. I only wanted to show you that, Jesus being called 'Mirror' who reflects 'the Word' is a concept that originally was believed in early Christianity, and it is Biblical and now almost a forgotten thing
"Jesus being the mirror that reflects the Word" is neither Biblical nor early Christian.

....but later gradually other man-made ideas were added instead. It is like finding the traces of Truth, between a bunch of man-made ideas, such as incarnation.
Incarnation is about as Biblical as you can get.

And I don't see how you can have it both. As I said you cannot reconcile 'incarnation' with 'image manifested in Mirror'.
Correct. Jesus is God incarnate, and the visible image of the invisible God. He mirrors His Father because they are both two Persons and one God, and they share the same Divine Nature and divine attributes.

I gave the analogy of the Sun and the image in the Mirror.....you did not reply to that portion. Why?
I have now. I was too tired to do it last night; I was up until 4 in the morning last night.

The verse of Bible is True. Baha'i Scripture has a different interpretation of the verse "the word became flesh'. I already explained that in my previous post and you seem to miss it or ignore it. That would be the reply...please refer to it.
I have, and the Baha'i interpretation is woefully inadequate and unsatisfactory.

Therefore my suggestion is, first you establish how 'image of God in the Mirror' is equivalent with 'incarnation'.....which I don't think they are reconcilable.
You think that Jesus is nothing but a mirror reflecting God. You're right, it's not reconciliable with the Biblical concept of incarnation.

When Scripture says "the Word became flesh, this is not a literal verse. It is figurative. It seems to me that Trinity takes this verse literally to mean incarnation.
Then again, it's my experience that the Baha'i don't believe a single verse of the Bible is literal. Making things figurative makes it easy for the Baha'i to get the Scriptures to say whatever they want it to say. The Apostles and those who learned from the Apostles understood the Bible differently. Those who studied for decades under St. John the Apostle understand his Gospel different than you do. I'm inclined to trust the personal students of the author above what some guy 1800 years later thought.

"As it is said in the Gospel of John, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God”;* then the Holy Spirit and the Word are the appearance of God. The Spirit and the Word mean the divine perfections that appeared in the Reality of Christ, and these perfections were with God; so the sun manifests all its glory in the mirror. For the Word does not signify the body of Christ, no, but the divine perfections manifested in Him.
This is Nestorianism, which teaches that the Divine Logos did not become flesh as John 1:14 clearly teaches, but rather teaches that the Logos came upon the human Jesus and influenced/controlled Jesus' actions.

For Christ was like a clear mirror which was facing the Sun of Reality; and the perfections of the Sun of Reality—that is to say, its light and heat—were visible and apparent in this mirror. If we look into the mirror, we see the sun, and we say, “It is the sun.”
But the mirror is not in any way the sun.

The analogy tells us there is a Sun in Sky, and this Mirror is showing its image. Now you say this Mirror (Jesus) always existed. I say No!. The Sun existed before, but this Mirror did not exist before. You seem` not be able to recognize difference between 'image of the Sun' and the Sun. You say the Sun and the image of Sun are both equal and the same. Do you not? If not, then how can you say God and His image are equal and the same?
Jesus IS the image of the Father, He does not merely reflect that image. Look at Colossians 1:15.

Jesus IS the Word made flesh, as John 1:14 teaches. You cannot get around this verse. Hebrews 1 and John 1 teach that it is Jesus Who created the world--not in the sense that He merely recreated or changed it, but in the sense that He truly created the world in the beginning.

But of the Son He says,“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
And the righteous scepter is the scepter of [h]His kingdom.
9 “You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness above Your companions.”

10 And,
“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the works of Your hands;

Genesis 1:
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was [a]formless and void, and darkness was over the [b]surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was [c]moving over the [d]surface of the waters. 3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

John 1:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.2 [a]He was in the beginning with God.3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.. . .
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.. . . 14 And the Word became flesh, and [k]dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of [l]the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. . . 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth [p]were realized through Jesus Christ.

Note that the Word is identified with Jesus Christ. John testifies of the Word, which is Christ. The Word was in the beginning with God--meaning, at the beginning of Creation. And indeed, God created the world through His Word, His Logos.

When the Scripture appears to be talking about pre-existence of Christ, that is in reference with His divine attributes, and not with His individuality. Please Note. It is like pointing to the image of the Sun in the Mirror and saying this Sun existed from beginning.
But the mirror is not the sun. In your view, Christ is nothing but the mirror, and the mirror is not the sun, nor can it ever be the sun. It is a reflection of the sun, and nothing more. Whenever we speak of the sun in the mirror, it is not the mirror we speak of, but of the sun reflected in the mirror. This is why the Baha'i understanding of Jesus being a mirror of His Father is ultimately inadequate.

.....and your assumption is incorrect regarding the Nature of Christ. The Baha'i Scriptures describes Jesus and other Manifestations as having a totally different nature than regular human beings, which places them infinitely above regular human, but below God.
Take it up with the Bible. If you can't accept what John 1 teaches, that's your problem.

Please note the difference between illogical fallacy and incomprehensible.
The Trinity is not an illogical fallacy, any more than God creating something out of nothing is an illogical fallacy.

As I quoted even from Basil..... We talk about one King and One image of King, and not Two Kings! Please note. We talk about One God and one Image of God who is Jesus and not two God. When you say Father is Fully God, and Jesus is Fully God, you are contradicting with what Scriptures teaches. The Scriptures describes Jesus 'image of God'.
I do not contradict the Scriptures, and St. Basil is in agreement with me. Jesus is the image of God, because He is God made visible--Colossians 1:15.

To me, Trinity is in contradiction with Bible, and it is very obvious it is illogical fallacy.
You're allowed to believe whatever you want about the Bible and about the Trinity. If you want to base your religious beliefs on reason, be my guest. I know there are some people who are uncomfortable with mystery and the incomprehensible.

The Trinity was gradually formed. But Athanasius was the one who finally leaded most Christians (in my view to the wrong path)....Athanasius was a man who applied force whenever it was in his favour. Seems a bit against the teachings of Christ.
Our faith in the Trinity is borne out of the witness and experience of the Apostles. The Trinity is not based on the arguments of men, but the living experience of the Apostles and of the Church. We believe what we believe about Jesus because of what the Apostles experienced of Jesus. They saw a person Who was fully man, and yet what He taught and did also evidenced His identity as God the Son. The same applies to the relationship of the three Persons of the Trinity--they are three truly distinct Persons Who together comprise the one undivided God.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Regardless if you agree that the Mirror mentioned in 1 Corinthians 13:12 is Jesus or not, but do you agree that in the other verse Jesus is the Mirror? In another words, do you agree that it is Biblical that Jesus is a Mirror reflecting image of God,
Wrong. Jesus IS the image of God, as Colossians 1:15 says. He does NOT merely reflect that image, He IS that image.

and that some of the Saints and great theologians in early Christianity referred to Jesus as Mirror of God correctly?
Jesus is the Mirror of God in that He is no different from His Father in divinity, glory, majesty, wisdom, power or will. Jesus is the fullness of divinity in bodily form (Colossians 2:9)
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Wrong. Jesus IS the image of God, as Colossians 1:15 says. He does NOT merely reflect that image, He IS that image.

Jesus is the Mirror of God in that He is no different from His Father in divinity, glory, majesty, wisdom, power or will. Jesus is the fullness of divinity in bodily form (Colossians 2:9)

As you said it above, 'Jesus is the Mirror of God', who 'is the image of God'.

In another words, The image of God is Manifested in a Mirror. This Mirror AND the Image inside of it together is Jesus. Is this fair?
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
I believe the sunshine must move down to a mirror in order to be reflected. However God is not sunshine nor the sun. A spirit can move into a body and take control. That is exactly what God does in Jesus.

I believe all the attributes are present in Jesus because God is present in Jesus. It is the attributes that are the image of God since the body has no part in God.

That is an analogy!


And this analogy in both Biblical and the early Christians such as Saint Basil used it:

"And He, like the sun, will by the aid of thy purified eye show thee in Himself the image of the invisible, and in the blessed spectacle of the image thou shalt behold the unspeakable beauty of the archetype"

NPNF2-08. Basil: Letters and Select Works - Christian Classics Ethereal Library


In this Analogy God is the Sun, and Jesus is an spotless Mirror that the Image of Sun is Manifested in Him. And Just because the Image is in the Mirror does not mean the Sun came down. Likewise When it is said Jesus the Mirror of God, is the image of God, that does not mean 'incarnation'. Simple as that. Sorry if it bothers you if these are against your beliefs.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
I don't believe Ba'hais are Christians. I don't even believe that Ba'hais respect the words of Jesus because they do their best to reinterpret them to mean what they wish it to mean. (I believe they do the same thing with their own scriptures and they aren't the only ones who do.)

I believe Baha'I Faith resurrects True and Original Christian Faith and Teachings. I can find the traces of truth in the writings of early saints that now is forgotten among the mainstream Christian denominations. But the Baha'I Scriptures reveals the Truth again for us in this Age.
 
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Triumphant_Loser

Libertarian Egalitarian
1+1+1=1? or 1+1+1=3 or 1+1+1= something else?

I've never understood it either. Jesus is God, but at the same time he is a separate person from God the Father, but wait, if Jesus is not God the Father, then that means he is a separate God, but wait, there is only one God in Christianity. The Holy Spirit is also God somehow, but it still isn't God or Jesus either, so it must be a 3rd God, but wait, there is still only one God in Christianity. It is all really confusing, and makes absolutely no sense.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
I've never understood it either. Jesus is God, but at the same time he is a separate person from God the Father, but wait, if Jesus is not God the Father, then that means he is a separate God, but wait, there is only one God in Christianity. The Holy Spirit is also God somehow, but it still isn't God or Jesus either, so it must be a 3rd God, but wait, there is still only one God in Christianity. It is all really confusing, and makes absolutely no sense.

True, the way Trinity Doctrine explains it makes no sense. But early Christians explained it with analogies like this:

There is a Sun in sky. If we place Two mirrors on earth in front of the Sun, we see Three Suns. One in sky, and two on the earth. But in reality there is only One Sun whose image is manifested in two other mirrors. Likewise Jesus is a Mirror showing the image of God, and Holy Spirit another Mirror or the Rays of the Sun. Both are reflections of the Perfections and attributes of God.
Now this can logically be accepted and reconcilable with Oneness of God originally taught in Judaism. The Bible also uses same analogies by referring to Jesus as Mirror and image of God.

But for some reason mainstream Christians have believed God is 'illogical', to justify Trinity doctrine.
But the fact is, there is no such a thing found in Bible that teaches God is illogical. On the contrary, according to Bible God is the Truth. How could the Truth be illogical?
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
As you said it above, 'Jesus is the Mirror of God', who 'is the image of God'.

In another words, The image of God is Manifested in a Mirror. This Mirror AND the Image inside of it together is Jesus. Is this fair?
I can accept the latter sentence, but not the former. Jesus is not "the image of God manifested in a mirror." He is at once both the image of His Father, and a reflection of Him, mirroring Him in every way, being Himself one and the same God with the Father.

To clarify my position further, you said in your response to Muffled...

In this Analogy God is the Sun, and Jesus is an spotless Mirror that the Image of Sun is Manifested in Him. And Just because the Image is in the Mirror does not mean the Sun came down. Likewise When it is said Jesus the Mirror of God, is the image of God, that does not mean 'incarnation'. Simple as that. Sorry if it bothers you if these are against your beliefs.
I completely reject this statement as being contrary to the Bible, the teachings of Jesus, and the faith of the Apostles and the early Christians. Were I to become Baha'i, I would accept it, but as a Christian (one who is of Christ), I cannot accept it.

In the passage you quote from St. Basil, it is we who are mirrors in whom the image of God is reflected. Putting that sentence of St. Basil's in context;

Now the Spirit is not brought into intimate association with the soul by local approximation. How indeed could there be a corporeal approach to the incorporeal? This association results from the withdrawal of the passions which, coming afterwards gradually on the soul from its friendship to the flesh, have alienated it from its close relationship with God. Only then after a man is purified from the shame whose stain he took through his wickedness, and has come back again to his natural beauty, and as it were cleaning the Royal Image and restoring its ancient form, only thus is it possible for him to draw near to the Paraclete.919 And He, like the sun, will by the aid of thy purified eye show thee in Himself the image of the invisible, and in the blessed spectacle of the image thou shalt behold the unspeakable beauty of the archetype.920 Through His aid hearts are lifted up, the weak are held by the hand, and they who are advancing are brought to perfection.921 Shining upon those that are cleansed from every spot, He makes them spiritual by fellowship with Himself. Just as when a sunbeam falls on bright and transparent bodies, they themselves become brilliant too, and shed forth a fresh brightness from themselves, so souls wherein the Spirit dwells, illuminated by the Spirit, themselves become spiritual, and send forth their grace to others.

We mere humans are what Baha'is claim to be mirrors of God--imperfect mirrors that we are, it is only we humans to whom the language of reflecting the sunlight is applicable. Jesus is more than that, as the Scriptures clearly teach.
 
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Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
True, the way Trinity Doctrine explains it makes no sense. But early Christians explained it with analogies like this:

There is a Sun in sky. If we place Two mirrors on earth in front of the Sun, we see Three Suns. One in sky, and two on the earth. But in reality there is only One Sun whose image is manifested in two other mirrors. Likewise Jesus is a Mirror showing the image of God, and Holy Spirit another Mirror or the Rays of the Sun. Both are reflections of the Perfections and attributes of God.
Now this can logically be accepted and reconcilable with Oneness of God originally taught in Judaism. The Bible also uses same analogies by referring to Jesus as Mirror and image of God.
I've already disagreed with and refuted this claim of yours repeatedly. Others can easily look and judge if what you claim is in line with what the early Christians believed and what the Bible taught.

But for some reason mainstream Christians have believed God is 'illogical', to justify Trinity doctrine.
God is unbound by logic.

But the fact is, there is no such a thing found in Bible that teaches God is illogical. On the contrary, according to Bible God is the Truth. How could the Truth be illogical?
There are paradoxes even in science and nature, especially in the realm of quantum physics. The fact is that not everything in the world makes logical sense to us.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
I can accept the latter sentence, but not the former. Jesus is not "the image of God manifested in a mirror." He is at once both the image of His Father, and a reflection of Him, mirroring Him in every way, being Himself one and the same God with the Father.

To clarify my position further, you said in your response to Muffled...

I completely reject this statement as being contrary to the Bible, the teachings of Jesus, and the faith of the Apostles and the early Christians. Were I to become Baha'i, I would accept it, but as a Christian (one who is of Christ), I cannot accept it.

In the passage you quote from St. Basil, it is we who are mirrors in whom the image of God is reflected. Putting that sentence of St. Basil's in context;

Now the Spirit is not brought into intimate association with the soul by local approximation. How indeed could there be a corporeal approach to the incorporeal? This association results from the withdrawal of the passions which, coming afterwards gradually on the soul from its friendship to the flesh, have alienated it from its close relationship with God. Only then after a man is purified from the shame whose stain he took through his wickedness, and has come back again to his natural beauty, and as it were cleaning the Royal Image and restoring its ancient form, only thus is it possible for him to draw near to the Paraclete.919 And He, like the sun, will by the aid of thy purified eye show thee in Himself the image of the invisible, and in the blessed spectacle of the image thou shalt behold the unspeakable beauty of the archetype.920 Through His aid hearts are lifted up, the weak are held by the hand, and they who are advancing are brought to perfection.921 Shining upon those that are cleansed from every spot, He makes them spiritual by fellowship with Himself. Just as when a sunbeam falls on bright and transparent bodies, they themselves become brilliant too, and shed forth a fresh brightness from themselves, so souls wherein the Spirit dwells, illuminated by the Spirit, themselves become spiritual, and send forth their grace to others.

We mere humans are what Baha'is claim to be mirrors of God--imperfect mirrors that we are, it is only we humans to whom the language of reflecting the sunlight is applicable. Jesus is more than that, as the Scriptures clearly teach.

Let's look and analyze fairly again:

" Only then after a man is purified from the shame whose stain he took through his wickedness, and has come back again to his natural beauty, and as it were cleaning the Royal Image and restoring its ancient form, only thus is it possible for him to draw near to the Paraclete.919 And He, like the sun, will by the aid of thy purified eye show thee in Himself the image of the invisible, and in the blessed spectacle of the image thou shalt behold the unspeakable beauty of the archetype.920 Through His aid hearts are lifted up, the weak are held by the hand, and they who are advancing are brought to perfection.921 Shining upon those that are cleansed from every spot, He makes them spiritual by fellowship with Himself. Just as when a sunbeam falls on bright and transparent bodies, they themselves become brilliant too, and shed forth a fresh brightness from themselves, so souls wherein the Spirit dwells, illuminated by the Spirit, themselves become spiritual, and send forth their grace to others."

The Key is 'show thee in Himself'.

1. Who is 'Himself' referred to here?
The answer is Christ.

2. Who is 'thee' referred to?
The answer is we human beings.

3. What does He show in Himself?
The Answer is 'Image of God, the invisible'

4. Therefore what is this 'Himself' that can show 'image in it'?
The answer is 'in Himself' means 'in Mirror'. He is like a Mirror showing the Sun.

This is in confirmation with another writings of Basil, calling Jesus Mirror:

"...Let us rather, in a sense befitting the Godhead, perceive a transmission of will, like the reflexion of an object in a mirror, passing without note of time from Father to Son."

Notice the corolation between the phrase "a transmission of will, like the reflexion of an object in a mirror" and "from the Father to Son".


Now as regards to the other part. Let's also analyze that:

"Shining upon those that are cleansed from every spot, He makes them spiritual by fellowship with Himself. Just as when a sunbeam falls on bright and transparent bodies, they themselves become brilliant too"


This seems to be explanation of this verse:

"This is why it is said: "Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you." Ephesians 5:24

This is the Resurrection of the Dead. Depending how clean we make our heart, the More Bright we become, when Manifestation of God shines the Light on us. Which is again explained in this verse:

"There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead...." 1 Cor. 15:42


The idea is that, since no reglar human has access directly to God or to receive Him directly, He has created a Mirror who acts as an intermediate. This intermediate in that Age was Jesus, who was the exact representation of God, just as how the image of the Sun in a Mirror is the exact 'representation' of the Sun. Then the light of God, reflected upon us, making all of us bright spiritually. Of course we are like mirrors too, therefore from the Mirror of Christ, the glory of God is reflected into our mirrors, and each of us to some degree show the glory of God...some more, and some less.
 
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InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
I've already disagreed with and refuted this claim of yours repeatedly. Others can easily look and judge if what you claim is in line with what the early Christians believed and what the Bible taught.
Sure, let them judge.


God is unbound by logic.

There are paradoxes even in science and nature, especially in the realm of quantum physics. The fact is that not everything in the world makes logical sense to us.

No one has access to God's knowledge to know Him directly and He is beyond our comprehension. But Jesus knew Him and He explained about Him according to the capacity of people. Moreover it is the Essence of God who is unknowable, not His attributes and Will that are Manifested in the Mirror for humanity. Therefore God does not reveal unless it can be logically understood, as He is not the Author of confusion. What Bible teaches is logical. Trinity is not in accordance with logic, because it is not Biblical. The analogy of the Sun and Mirror explains this logically, and is found in Bible and early Christians Writings. I leave it as this......
 

Triumphant_Loser

Libertarian Egalitarian
I don't believe Ba'hais are Christians. I don't even believe that Ba'hais respect the words of Jesus because they do their best to reinterpret them to mean what they wish it to mean. (I believe they do the same thing with their own scriptures and they aren't the only ones who do.)

Reinterpreting Jesus' message to fit their own agendas...hmm... I wonder what other religion does that?:sarcastic
 

icebuddy

Does the devil lift Jesus up?
Yes, I believe Jesus was created:
"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener" John 15:1

The Manifestations of God have access to the knowledge and Will of God and can reveal His Words and Attributes into the world and act as an 'intermediately' between God and mankind. The regular man cannot do this!

My thought is He made Himself humble and became an obedient servant.

Our beliefs are close and different at the same time... I dont see how the Eternal word talked about in 1John1:1-4 can be created. Eternal is Eternal... Also, Jesus is unique in the way he expresses God to us fully and exactly. I dont believe anyone but God could save creation from its sins and as i read in the bible that the Eternal Word was God and with God, had equality with God because he was God, yet loved us so much that he humbled himself to become man and die in our place.

What verses do you see that make you think Jesus is created and not a everlasting being that humbled himself for our sake? What religion are you or who do you fellowship with? I am a Friends Quaker that is attending a Evangelical Free Church (Same Belief)

In Love
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Let's look and analyze fairly again:

" Only then after a man is purified from the shame whose stain he took through his wickedness, and has come back again to his natural beauty, and as it were cleaning the Royal Image and restoring its ancient form, only thus is it possible for him to draw near to the Paraclete.919 And He, like the sun, will by the aid of thy purified eye show thee in Himself the image of the invisible, and in the blessed spectacle of the image thou shalt behold the unspeakable beauty of the archetype.920 Through His aid hearts are lifted up, the weak are held by the hand, and they who are advancing are brought to perfection.921 Shining upon those that are cleansed from every spot, He makes them spiritual by fellowship with Himself. Just as when a sunbeam falls on bright and transparent bodies, they themselves become brilliant too, and shed forth a fresh brightness from themselves, so souls wherein the Spirit dwells, illuminated by the Spirit, themselves become spiritual, and send forth their grace to others."

The Key is 'show thee in Himself'.

1. Who is 'Himself' referred to here?
The answer is Christ.
Err... No. Read the first part of the chapter again.

Now the Spirit is not brought into intimate association with the soul by local approximation. How indeed could there be a corporeal approach to the incorporeal? This association results from the withdrawal of the passions which, coming afterwards gradually on the soul from its friendship to the flesh, have alienated it from its close relationship with God. Only then after a man is purified from the shame whose stain he took through his wickedness, and has come back again to his natural beauty, and as it were cleaning the Royal Image and restoring its ancient form, only thus is it possible for him to draw near to the Paraclete.919 And He, like the sun, will by the aid of thy purified eye show thee in Himself the image of the invisible, and in the blessed spectacle of the image thou shalt behold the unspeakable beauty of the archetype

Who is the Paraclete, according to the Scriptures? The Holy Spirit--see John 14:16-17.

2. Who is 'thee' referred to?
The answer is we human beings.

3. What does He show in Himself?
The Answer is 'Image of God, the invisible'

4. Therefore what is this 'Himself' that can show 'image in it'?
The answer is 'in Himself' means 'in Mirror'. He is like a Mirror showing the Sun.
No, the Spirit is showing us, through His illumination, the image of God within ourselves. Read it again:

And He, like the sun, will by the aid of thy purified eye show thee in Himself the image of the invisible, and in the blessed spectacle of the image thou shalt behold the unspeakable beauty of the archetype.920 . . Shining upon those that are cleansed from every spot, He makes them spiritual by fellowship with Himself. Just as when a sunbeam falls on bright and transparent bodies, they themselves become brilliant too, and shed forth a fresh brightness from themselves, so souls wherein the Spirit dwells, illuminated by the Spirit, themselves become spiritual, and send forth their grace to others.

It is we who are mere mirrors of God, not the Spirit. The Spirit shines His light upon us, that we may see the image of God within us.

This is in confirmation with another writings of Basil, calling Jesus Mirror:

"...Let us rather, in a sense befitting the Godhead, perceive a transmission of will, like the reflexion of an object in a mirror, passing without note of time from Father to Son."

Notice the corolation between the phrase "a transmission of will, like the reflexion of an object in a mirror" and "from the Father to Son".
This is from chapter 20 of St. Basil's work "On the Holy Spirit." Here is that sentence within its context:

When then He says, “I have not spoken of myself,”894 and again, “As the Father said unto me, so I speak,”895 and “The word which ye hear is not mine, but [the Father’s] which sent me,”896 and in another place, “As the Father gave me commandment, even so I do,”897 it is not because He lacks deliberate purpose or power of initiation, nor yet because He has to wait for the preconcerted key-note, that he employs language of this kind. His object is to make it plain that His own will is connected in indissoluble union with the Father. Do not then let us understand by what is called a “commandment” a peremptory mandate delivered by organs of speech, and giving orders to the Son, as to a subordinate, concerning what He ought to do. Let us rather, in a sense befitting the Godhead, perceive a transmission of will, like the reflexion of an object in a mirror, passing without note of time from Father to Son. “For the Father loveth the Son and sheweth him all things,”898 so that “all things that the Father hath” belong to the Son, not gradually accruing to Him little by little, but with Him all together and at once. Among men, the workman who has been thoroughly taught his craft, and, through long training, has sure and established experience in it, is able, in accordance with the scientific methods which now he has in store, to work for the future by himself. And are we to suppose that the wisdom of God, the Maker of all creation, He who is eternally perfect, who is wise, without a teacher, the Power of God, “in whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge,”899 needs piecemeal instruction to mark out the manner and measure of His operations?

In other words, Jesus is like a mirror of the Father, in that they both have the same exact will. Two people who want the same thing and do the same actions are mirroring each other.

Now as regards to the other part. Let's also analyze that:

"Shining upon those that are cleansed from every spot, He makes them spiritual by fellowship with Himself. Just as when a sunbeam falls on bright and transparent bodies, they themselves become brilliant too"

This seems to be explanation of this verse:

"This is why it is said: "Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you." Ephesians 5:24

This is the Resurrection of the Dead. Depending how clean we make our heart, the More Bright we become, when Manifestation of God shines the Light on us. Which is again explained in this verse:

"There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead...." 1 Cor. 15:42
Yes. The process of the Holy Spirit cleaning us and making us more perfect is described in 2 Corinthians 3:18. We are commanded by Christ to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect.

The idea is that, since no reglar human has access directly to God or to receive Him directly, He has created a Mirror who acts as an intermediate. This intermediate in that Age was Jesus, who was the exact representation of God, just as how the image of the Sun in a Mirror is the exact 'representation' of the Sun. Then the light of God, reflected upon us, making all of us bright spiritually. Of course we are like mirrors too, therefore from the Mirror of Christ, the glory of God is reflected into our mirrors, and each of us to some degree show the glory of God...some more, and some less.
I agree with us showing the glory of God and reflecting His light as mirrors, yes. But, Christ is uncreated. St. John the Apostle teaches this, his student St. Ignatius of Antioch teaches this, St. Basil teaches this, the rest of the early Christians teach this, and the Bible makes this blatantly clear.
 
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