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The Trinity

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Sure, let them judge.

No one has access to God's knowledge to know Him directly and He is beyond our comprehension. But Jesus knew Him and He explained about Him according to the capacity of people. Moreover it is the Essence of God who is unknowable, not His attributes and Will
As an Orthodox Christian, I agree completely. This is a foundational tenet of Orthodox theology.

Therefore God does not reveal unless it can be logically understood, as He is not the Author of confusion.
There are plenty of things that we can understand that are independent of logic. Emotions, for instance, are completely independent of logical processes.

What Bible teaches is logical. Trinity is not in accordance with logic, because it is not Biblical.
The Bible does have some logical things, yes, but there is plenty in there that is beyond our logic or ability to comprehend. Such as, like I have been saying, God's eternality and His creating the world out of nothing. We cannot comprehend His might, power, glory, wisdom or perfection.

You seem to value logic over experience and revelation. That's fine. But don't expect everything about God to conform to puny human logic. The Bible itself is baby talk in the eyes of God. Logic can only get us so far. It is not the measuring stick of the truth of God. We don't have the Truth because we reasoned our way there, but because God gave us revelation. And what He reveals doesn't always make sense to us. Logic is not the be-all or end-all.

Consider the Scriptures:

1 Corinthians 1:20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 3:19: For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is written, “He is the one who catches the wise in their craftiness”;

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart
And do not lean on your own understanding.

We shouldn't check in our brain at the door. But before God, we should expect to not understand everything we learn of Him.

The analogy of the Sun and Mirror explains this logically, and is found in Bible and early Christians Writings. I leave it as this......
There is the language of mirror in the Bible, but it is not in the form of the analogy that the Baha'i use.
 

icebuddy

Does the devil lift Jesus up?
It is perfectly fine if Jesus referred to Himself as God, for it is repeatedly shown that through Him, the Word and Attributes of God was manifested into the World. Again, If we place a Mirror in front of the Sun, what do we see inside it? We see the Sun, so if we point at it and say that is the Sun it is correct, and if we point to Mirror and say that is just a Mirror and not the Sun that is also true. Likewise Jesus said 'whoever has seen Me, has seen the Father', and He also alluded to Himself as son of man.

But according to the scriptures there is only One God. When the Image of the Sun appears in Mirror, the Sun does not move down from sky into Mirror, but its image appears in the Mirror. Likewise when it is said Jesus is the Image of God, the meaning is not that God has moved down from Heaven into Jesus, but it means His attributes and Will is Manifested in the Mirror. But with Trinity such station is not described biblically. It seems to me, trinity is playing with words, one in three, and three in one. That is illogical to me.

How Many universes are there? Is it made up of Time, Space, and Matter? Can the universe exist without any one of them? You say 1 in 3 is illogical, but Gods creation, which he created have lots of examples. So it is clearly logical to have 3 in 1 in other parts of creation, you just dont believe in a Trinity when it comes to God. To say 3 in 1 is illogical makes you seem as if you are not looking around at creation as how there are 3 in ones around us... Or 2 in ones ....

The Father calls Jesus something special in Hebrews 1:10-12. So if I where to take your belief and make it into a Trinity, I would say God is the Invisible, The Visible, and the transition between the 2. To say God doesnt have an Image that is part of him is odd to me. You are thinking in human terms when you think Image and Mirrored image. however, the bible says Jesus is the Visible image of the invisible God. Not as like a mirror when a Visible person looks into a mirror showing what the visible image looks like. Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God. i consider that 100% God and would not look at the only visible image of God and say "Not Really God and Not really my worship". (Which many are doing in their hearts with this same belief)

I believe Thomas had this happen to him and said directly to Jesus, "My Lord and My God". (john 20:28) and then Jesus blesses Him. Nowhere do we see Jesus say "Dont Worship me or Call me God"... He always accepts it and blesses those for seeing...

Who do you believe Jesus to be before humbling himself as a man?
What religion are you or who do you fellowship with?

In Love
 
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kjw47

Well-Known Member
Jesus united Himself to us through experiencing the human experience by sharing in our pains, sorrows and death. He wants us to reciprocate that by dying not in the body, but to sin, and share in Christ's vanquishment over sin. As Christ was tempted by sin but never yielded, so He wants us also to do. As Christ rose to new life and opened the door to Paradise, He will also raise us up with Him and wants us to follow Him to paradise. We are saved through synergy with God--working together with Him. Relationships are two-way affairs.

No, there is nothing wrong with exercising free will. God gave us free will. To have free will, to be able to discern good and evil, and the gift of reason, is what it means to be made in God's image. Free will is not a bad thing--only how we use it can be bad. Having free will is not limited to good vs. evil. Free will can also be deciding between one good action and another--do I give a poor man some money, or do I buy him some food, or do I give him my spare coat, or do I open my home to him for a night?

Mankind's petty sins could not even possibly begin to dishonor the infinite God with infinite majesty. Nothing in Heaven or on earth could diminish God's honor and glory, anymore than anything could diminish His divinity, might and wisdom. God humbling Himself down to our level only adds to His glory, for it shows His lovingkindness and concern towards man, and His humility, and that He leaves nothing undone until He brings us His kingdom to come.




Jesus taught that God was in heaven while he was on earth---
False Christians( 32,999) disunified mass of confusion religionssssssssssssssssss have been dragging God and Jesus' names through the mud since the 3rd century.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
As an Orthodox Christian, I agree completely. This is a foundational tenet of Orthodox theology.

There are plenty of things that we can understand that are independent of logic. Emotions, for instance, are completely independent of logical processes.

The Bible does have some logical things, yes, but there is plenty in there that is beyond our logic or ability to comprehend. Such as, like I have been saying, God's eternality and His creating the world out of nothing. We cannot comprehend His might, power, glory, wisdom or perfection.

You seem to value logic over experience and revelation. That's fine. But don't expect everything about God to conform to puny human logic. The Bible itself is baby talk in the eyes of God. Logic can only get us so far. It is not the measuring stick of the truth of God. We don't have the Truth because we reasoned our way there, but because God gave us revelation. And what He reveals doesn't always make sense to us. Logic is not the be-all or end-all.

Consider the Scriptures:

1 Corinthians 1:20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 3:19: For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is written, “He is the one who catches the wise in their craftiness”;

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart
And do not lean on your own understanding.

We shouldn't check in our brain at the door. But before God, we should expect to not understand everything we learn of Him.

There is the language of mirror in the Bible, but it is not in the form of the analogy that the Baha'i use.
None of this means True Religion of God is illogical as you have claimed. When a Religion is illogical, it cannot be from One True God..and I am absolutly certain that Trinity doctrine is not from God. Simple as that! All Scholars agree that Trinity doctrine came to existence due to the debates and disagreements between early Christians regarding the station and relation between the Son, Father and Holy Spirit, and as you know, many of them disagreed that Jesus was equal to God or is pre-existent.

Moreover, remember what Christ prophesied:

"the Sun shall be darkened, the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall."

'The Sun, Moon and stars' signify the Christian Leaders that had been raised from their death and were resurrected through Christ Revelation and received the Light of Christ to different degrees. Jesus Prophesied they will be fallen and become darkened. Those who have invented and preached the false doctrines such as Trinity are of those. Sorry to say that my friend.
 
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InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Our beliefs are close and different at the same time... I dont see how the Eternal word talked about in 1John1:1-4 can be created. Eternal is Eternal...

The Word signifies the Perfections of God. Yes the Word is Eternal.
The Word does not represent the Body of Jesus, No, It represents the Divine Attributes and Perfections that became Manifested in Jesus. Jesus was like a spotless mirror, facing the Sun of Truth, and reflecting the Light of God into the World. The Sun representing God was and is eternal. The Mirror was not eternal, but He was created.

I have already quoted another verse from Bible, that God relative to Jesus, is like the Gardener to Vine Tree. The vine tree is dependent upon the Gardner and is planted by Him.




Also, Jesus is unique in the way he expresses God to us fully and exactly. I dont believe anyone but God could save creation from its sins and as i read in the bible that the Eternal Word was God and with God,
I agree up to this point.

had equality with God because he was God, yet loved us so much that he humbled himself to become man and die in our place.
The absolute Truth is confined to God Himself. However in every Age, He reveals a 'relative Truth' in accordance with the requirement of Age. The Word that was Manifested with Jesus, was in accordance with that Age.
For example Jesus said:
"....he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery." Luke 16:18

As you see, such words although revealed by God, it was meant for that Age. It is not applicable to our time. It was a perfect remedy and solution for the problems of that Age. That is the relative Truth.
Moses also revealed the word of God, but for example He revealed a different Law with regards to divorce than Jesus, because Moses came for a different Age.
Baha'is believe in this Age the Word is Manifested in Baha'u'llah.

What verses do you see that make you think Jesus is created and not a everlasting being that humbled himself for our sake? What religion are you or who do you fellowship with? I am a Friends Quaker that is attending a Evangelical Free Church (Same Belief)

In Love
The verses that shows Christ was a Mirror of God. In another words Christ was an exact representation of God, but not God Himself who has preexistence.
 
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InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
No, the Spirit is showing us, through His illumination, the image of God within ourselves. Read it again:

I have to disagree here. Please read the quote again. The Key to understand the verse is 'in Himself'.
Yes, This is about Holy Spirit, I agree with you on that. But this Holy Spirit is like a Mirror that shows the image of the Sun 'in Himself'. But also He reflects the Light of the Sun on others to illuminate them as well.

"And He, like the sun, will by the aid of thy purified eye show thee in Himself the image of the invisible, and in the blessed spectacle of the image thou shalt behold the unspeakable beauty of the archetype.920 . . Shining upon those that are cleansed from every spot, He makes them spiritual by fellowship with Himself. Just as when a sunbeam falls on bright and transparent bodies, they themselves become brilliant too, and shed forth a fresh brightness from themselves, so souls wherein the Spirit dwells, illuminated by the Spirit, themselves become spiritual, and send forth their grace to others."





Err... No. Read the first part of the chapter again.
And He, like the sun, will by the aid of thy purified eye show thee in Himself the image of the invisible, and in the blessed spectacle of the image thou shalt behold the unspeakable beauty of the archetype

Who is the Paraclete, according to the Scriptures? The Holy Spirit--see John 14:16-17.
Yes, I agree. He is talking about the Holy Spirit. There is One Sun, and Two images of it. One image is the Christ, and the Other image is Holy Spirit. There is One God, and two images of God. Not 1 in Three and Three in One!
But the point I was making was also regarding analogy of the Sun representing God.
 
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icebuddy

Does the devil lift Jesus up?
I am not in disagreement as to the meaning of firstborn…as being firstborn of God means being supreme over all creation. My issue wasn’t about what firstborn means, but about that Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature…shows that Jesus is the image of God, and not God. That was and is the topic here.

It is the Christian belief that we are Soul, Body, and Spirit (Three in One) (1 Thes 5:23) If this is true, as many believe, wouldnt it make sense that our Body is the Image of our Soul and Spirit? Does that mean our Soul and Spirit are not truly who we are??? Besides this, we have passages of the father and others pointing Jesus out as Jehovah of the Old Testament. So if the Father says his Image, Jesus, is Jehovah, then I believe him as well. You are Interpreting something with human thoughts that the Father has already answered in my opinion. Hebrews 1:10-12 Are we to think that Jehovah is not Really God?

Jesus expresses the Father fully because he represents the Father, God sent a representative, that representative would need to present God fully and completely; but this does not make the representative God himself. One isn’t an image of himself, nor needs to be.

I believe the things said of Jesus surpass that of just a messenger. The words said of Jesus are much more. The Eternal Word of Life, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, First and Last, Jehovah of Armies, Jehovah our Righteousness, God, Creator of all Things, Maker, Root of David, Immanuel, God with Us, Worthy is the Lamb, and some Im forgetting. There would be no reason for Jesus to be all of these if he where not God and just Gods messenger... Just as Jehovah Made it rain sulfur from Jehovah in heaven, I see that Jehovah sent Jehovah himself... (Hosea 1:7) Jehovah talking and he will send Jehovah. Then we read make ready they way of Jehovah, who then appears as Immanuel God with us, and named Jesus.

And never do we see a verse saying that I am not God, but that doesn’t mean that I am God, now does it. In your efforts to use verses that support Jesus as God, you use verses that mostly say that Jesus is the image of God. And that is not the same thing.

The Father Calls Jesus Jehovah as do the New Testament writers. Is Jehovah God? Isaiah 9:6 clearly calls Jesus God or Mighty God as Jehovah calls himself Mighty God... John 1:1 calls the Word God and with God. Thomas calls Jesus God and Lord. The book Titus calls Jesus God and Savior as well as John. It is my belief that these are translated correctly, do you not believe that I believe this?

I don’t think I’ve ever seen anywhere in the bible a verse saying to not under value Jesus. And if we lift Jesus up to what he isn’t, that is God, then we are lifting him to high, to being God, instead of the image of God. Image is not the real thing.

The Greek word for Honor means to value or fix a value to. John 5:23 clearly says to honor Jesus as you honor the Father. I see this as God, Worship, as seen in Revelation 5:12 & Hebrews 1:3. You say you honor Jesus as Jesus and the Father as the Father. That you See the Father as God and Jesus as his messanger (not equal) In Rev we See Jesus being honored with the Father with Worship...

All through the Bible, people are carving Images of their many gods out of wood, gold, silver.. They worship these images and God is not happy with them. In revelation, the Devil has an Image that people worship (Trying to be like God). So when i am told that Jesus is the Image of the invisible God, to be honored as the Father, and I worship Jesus. Do you think God is upset in any way with this? That I look to the image of God and say, "My Lord and my God", you are worthy of my worship...?

In Love
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
None of this means True Religion of God is illogical as you have claimed. When a Religion is illogical, it cannot be from One True God..and I am absolutly certain that Trinity doctrine is not from God. Simple as that! All Scholars agree that Trinity doctrine came to existence due to the debates and disagreements between early Christians regarding the station and relation between the Son, Father and Holy Spirit, and as you know, many of them disagreed that Jesus was equal to God or is pre-existent.
"All scholars" is a rather bold claim, and I doubt you can back it up. The basis of what would later be clarified as the dogma of the Trinity was there right from the start; any honest scholar will admit at least that much. It was just a matter of pondering, refining and clarifying what was already believed.

The True Religion of God is going to have at least parts that supercede human logic. If any religion is 100% logical, then this shows its origin as being from human logic, and not from God. If God Himself is beyond human comprehension and human logic, then the revelation of Who He is will likewise be beyond human logical understanding.

Moreover, remember what Christ prophesied:

"the Sun shall be darkened, the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall."

'The Sun, Moon and stars' signify the Christian Leaders that had been raised from their death and were resurrected through Christ Revelation and received the Light of Christ to different degrees. Jesus Prophesied they will be fallen and become darkened. Those who have invented and preached the false doctrines such as Trinity are of those. Sorry to say that my friend.
You can make of Revelation whatever you want. Millions of people have manipulated it to support whatever they want.

But, Jesus promises that the gates of Hades will never prevail against His Church. Moreover, as St. Paul says, the Church is "the pillar and ground of the truth." 1 Timothy 3:15. The Church will never teach error, nor will it ever cease to exist or disappear from the earth.

Now of course, you as a Baha'i would claim that we Christians don't understand our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ, and that we don't understand our own teachers, the Apostles and their students. But in all the times when I looked most skeptically at Christianity, I still never found any evidence that the early Christians taught differently than what Christ or the Apostles did. There is a steady, constant witness of Orthodox Christianity going from the year 2014 back to Pentecost in 33 AD. The belief in the Trinity has always existed, and is evident in the Bible and the writings of the Apostles and their students and the rest of the early Christians, even if they couldn't quite put their finger on how to verbally put it in words in a succinct and organized manner like at the Councils of Nicaea and Constantinople.

The Church did have ways to ferret out who taught error and who taught the true Faith: The Tradition of the Apostles, which was passed down orally, from Apostle to bishop and priest, from bishop and priest to congregation, and was soon disseminated throughout the Christian community and the Church at large, being handed down from parent to child, teacher to student. Whoever went against this Tradition was known to be deviating from what the Apostles taught. The Tradition was safeguarded from change through cross-referencing various students from the same teacher, and by comparing the teachers who had been taught by the same person, and by the various churches keeping in touch with each other. And of course, we have always had the Holy Spirit, Who leads us into all truth.

I have to disagree here. Please read the quote again. The Key to understand the verse is 'in Himself'.
Yes, This is about Holy Spirit, I agree with you on that. But this Holy Spirit is like a Mirror that shows the image of the Sun 'in Himself'. But also He reflects the Light of the Sun on others to illuminate them as well.
Wrong. The context is about us being mirrors, and the Holy Spirit is described in the previous chapter as the light that illumines the mind. And in chapter 23, the Holy Spirit is compared to the sun, not compared to the mirror reflecting the sun, but compared to the sun--that is, shining His light upon us, who are the mirrors.

First of all we ask, who on hearing the titles of the Spirit is not lifted up in soul, who does not raise his conception to the supreme nature? It is called “Spirit of God,”911 “Spirit of truth which proceedeth from the Father,”912 “right Spirit,”913 “a leading Spirit.”914 Its915 proper and peculiar title is “Holy Spirit;” which is a name specially appropriate to everything that is incorporeal, purely immaterial, and indivisible. So our Lord, when teaching the woman who thought God to be an object of local worship that the incorporeal is incomprehensible, said “God is a spirit.”916 On our hearing, then, of a spirit, it is impossible to form the idea of a nature circumscribed, subject to change and variation, or at all like the creature. We are compelled to advance in our conceptions to the highest, and to think of an intelligent essence, in power infinite, in magnitude unlimited, unmeasured by times or ages, generous of Its good gifts, to whom turn all things needing sanctification, after whom reach all things that live in virtue, as being watered by Its inspiration and helped on toward their natural and proper end; perfecting all other things, but Itself in nothing lacking; living not as needing restoration, but as Supplier of life; not growing by additions; but straightway full, self-established, omnipresent, origin of sanctification, light perceptible to the mind, supplying, as it were, through Itself, illumination to every faculty in the search for truth; by nature unapproachable, apprehended by reason of goodness, filling all things with Its power,917 but communicated only to the worthy; not shared in one measure, but distributing Its energy according to “the proportion of faith;”918 in essence simple, in powers various, wholly present in each and being wholly everywhere; impassively divided, shared without loss of ceasing to be entire, after the likeness of the sunbeam, whose kindly light falls on him who enjoys it as though it shone for him alone, yet illumines land and sea and mingles with the air. So, too, is the Spirit to every one who receives it, as though given to him alone, and yet It sends forth grace sufficient and full for all mankind, and is enjoyed by all who share It, according to the capacity, not of Its power, but of their nature.

23. Now the Spirit is not brought into intimate association with the soul by local approximation. How indeed could there be a corporeal approach to the incorporeal? This association results from the withdrawal of the passions which, coming afterwards gradually on the soul from its friendship to the flesh, have alienated it from its close relationship with God. Only then after a man is purified from the shame whose stain he took through his wickedness, and has come back again to his natural beauty, and as it were cleaning the Royal Image and restoring its ancient form, only thus is it possible for him to draw near to the Paraclete.919 And He, like the sun, will by the aid of thy purified eye show thee in Himself the image of the invisible, and in the blessed spectacle of the image thou shalt behold the unspeakable beauty of the archetype.920 Through His aid hearts are lifted up, the weak are held by the hand, and they who are advancing are brought to perfection.921 Shining upon those that are cleansed from every spot, He makes them spiritual by fellowship with Himself. Just as when a sunbeam falls on bright and transparent bodies, they themselves become brilliant too, and shed forth a fresh brightness from themselves, so souls wherein the Spirit dwells, illuminated by the Spirit, themselves become spiritual, and send forth their grace to others.

^This shows clearly that it is the Spirit Who is the Sun that shines upon us (not a mirror reflecting the Sun, but the Spirit Himself is the Sun), and that it is we who are the mirrors. St. Basil does not say what you want him to say, no matter how badly you want him to.
 
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InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
"All scholars" is a rather bold claim, and I doubt you can back it up. The basis of what would later be clarified as the dogma of the Trinity was there right from the start; any honest scholar will admit at least that much. It was just a matter of pondering, refining and clarifying what was already believed.

Well, that is what the Wikipedia says:

"...all scholars recognize that the Creeds themselves were created in reaction to disagreements over the nature of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. These controversies, however, were great and many, and took some centuries to be resolved."
Trinity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The True Religion of God is going to have at least parts that supercede human logic. If any religion is 100% logical, then this shows its origin as being from human logic, and not from God. If God Himself is beyond human comprehension and human logic, then the revelation of Who He is will likewise be beyond human logical understanding.

Except that a Revelation is not the absolute Truth. The absolute Truth is confined to God Himself, and He never literally came into this World.
God reveals truth gradually and progressively in accordance with the Age that people live. A Revelation comes in the measure of the capacity of intelligence of Mankind so it is logically understandable and so they can 'Bear it', as Jesus put it.




But, Jesus promises that the gates of Hades will never prevail against His Church. Moreover, as St. Paul says, the Church is "the pillar and ground of the truth." 1 Timothy 3:15. The Church will never teach error, nor will it ever cease to exist or disappear from the earth.
The Church of God, in this verse is the symbolic Representation of the Religion of God. It means whenever the human beings corrupted and distorted the Religion of God, He again Reveals the Truth, so that always that Truth remains on earth for those who want to seek it. In this Age, Baha'is Believe the Religion is Renewed through the Revelation of Baha'u'llah. Moreover, that the Religious Leaders fall, does not mean the Religion itself has fallen or the gates of Hades prevailed against it.

That He said "the Sun shall be darkened", is symbolic, as for example in 'sun of righteousness', shall be darkened (see Malachi 4:2), or for example the stars are not pure (fallen stars) and moon is dark in His site... see Job 25:5


Now of course, you as a Baha'i would claim that we Christians don't understand our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ, and that we don't understand our own teachers, the Apostles and their students. But in all the times when I looked most skeptically at Christianity, I still never found any evidence that the early Christians taught differently than what Christ or the Apostles did. There is a steady, constant witness of Orthodox Christianity going from the year 2014 back to Pentecost in 33 AD. The belief in the Trinity has always existed, and is evident in the Bible and the writings of the Apostles and their students and the rest of the early Christians, even if they couldn't quite put their finger on how to verbally put it in words in a succinct and organized manner like at the Councils of Nicaea and Constantinople.

The Church did have ways to ferret out who taught error and who taught the true Faith: The Tradition of the Apostles, which was passed down orally, from Apostle to bishop and priest, from bishop and priest to congregation, and was soon disseminated throughout the Christian community and the Church at large, being handed down from parent to child, teacher to student. Whoever went against this Tradition was known to be deviating from what the Apostles taught. The Tradition was safeguarded from change through cross-referencing various students from the same teacher, and by comparing the teachers who had been taught by the same person, and by the various churches keeping in touch with each other. And of course, we have always had the Holy Spirit, Who leads us into all truth

I never claimed that Christians don't understand the message of Christ entirely, God forbid! I am specifically discussing about the doctrine of Trinity, and how in my view it is not in the original Christian Faith and is illogical. Now, off course there is some truth in the doctrine of Trinity. But there is also additional misinterpretations and ideas.


This shows clearly that it is the Spirit Who is the Sun that shines upon us (not a mirror reflecting the Sun, but the Spirit Himself is the Sun), and that it is we who are the mirrors. St. Basil does not say what you want him to say, no matter how badly you want him to.

He refers to spirit as 'image of the invisible' or 'the image of God', and not God Himself. Also He says 'like sun', not 'the Sun'. That is to say, the Spirit is in likeness of God, and not God Himself.
 
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icebuddy

Does the devil lift Jesus up?
It is not demeaning to be a created being. It seems that you think this. Jesus himself called God the only true God. I'll take his word for it above all others.

i dont believe anywhere in the bible does it say Jesus is Created. However, we do read that he is the Eternal Word of Life... As for Jesus calling the Father True God, he also added Himself by saying "AND" Jesus. If he would have said "True God and Savior" would you of said that God isnt the Savior because of the word "And" is stuck between God AND Savior? 1 John 5:20 says that the True God is both Father and Son and being in them both. Hosea 13:4 says we are to not acknowledge any other god or savior than Jehovah. You keep saying Jesus is separate yet the bible says Jesus is God and Savior. Do you look at Jesus as just a tool of God? Is that Honoring them the same? I acknowledge Jesus as God and Savior who I do not separate from Jehovah, but as i cannot separate my Body from Soul and Spirit, I do not separate God from his Image.

Jesus is everything that God is because he is the image of God. He represents God fully, as you said yourself, but this doesn't make Jesus God. God choice Jesus to die for us as the bible says that He had to be like us in everyway to save us from our sins, not that he had to be God to do this. Jesus will come again as God's representative and so we will see God thru him as he is the image of God. This still will not make him God.

The Bible calls Jesus God in some parts, the Father calls Jesus Jehovah in Parts. What I see going on is that Jesus says the Father is God and the Father says Jesus is God. Its a love fest... Father is worthy, the son is worthy... honor the Father, honor the Son as you honor the Father... If the Image of God was before you, would you have a problem calling Him God and Worshiping? ...

I believe that Jesus died for us, not just the body, as if only his body died then he didn't actually die at all and we are all still in our sins and not redeemed.

Thats your understanding of death. It is the Christian belief that our God experienced death in the flesh as we all will, yet his spirit and soul still existed. Jesus tells us of a story in Luke 16 of how this works. You die and your spirit/soul is carried off. You keep defining things with your understanding of them. For example: Death is non-existent. God is single unit only. However, it is not the Christian belief that at death one becomes non-existent. Death is the sting of the separation of Body from Soul/Spirit. Do you now understand that Trinitarians do not believe in the non-existent at death? We believe exactly as Jesus says in Luke 16...

And Jesus wasn't resurrected for real if it was only the body that was raised. I believe that the bible says that Jesus died,and was resurrected, not just the body leaving Jesus alive through it all. It was his breath that went back to God, meaning that he did truly die.

We believe Jesus was resurrected in Body/Soul/Spirit. You believe something totaly different as me when it comes to death. Another can of worms...

It is the bible that says no one can see God. In an earlier post you said that 70 persons saw God in the OT, and a sentence later said that no one can see God. A slight contradiction, as I see it.

we both are looking at the same problem. You have to explain what they saw or I have to explain what is meant by seeing God. i believe God can be seen as he so chooses. When i read no one has ever seen God, i explain that we cannot behold him. What ever the case, we know that all the People that saw God, really believed that they saw God and God never said anything different. So we must believe they saw God in the form God chose to show himself. However, if you have a direct question...

Also, I don't know what KIT is.
Its a Greek to English JW bible...

And no, I have not converted.
Very close to their belief you are

The reason why the Jews missed who Jesus was is because they did not accept him as their messiah, not because they failed to see him as God. And not because they do not hold to the trinity.

Over and over they said Jesus was claiming either to be God or have equality with God and therefore they could not believe. They also thought their savior would be more majestic and not a uneducated person from where nothing comes out of... Jesus also said he was the Son of God, which they also concluded that the Son of God would be God as Jews birth Jews and cows cows... Thomas saw Jesus after and said to him, My Lord and My God...

Can one lift up Jesus to high? Yes, if they are claiming that he is God when he is the Son of God as the bible teaches, and making him out to be what he is not. It feels to me that when claiming that the Son of God is God, that is to under estimate Yahweh God, and that is what is truly serious.

Explain to me when Jesus became the Son of God?
Also, wasn't Jesus the "Son of Man"? So he wasn't Man using your same thinking.

I hope that I have rattled your brain also, in a good way of course. :) God bless...

Anyone who thinks like a JW always rattles my brain. Also, be careful saying one can lift Jesus too high by calling him God. Jesus is called Mighty God, God, and Jehovah in the bible. You can explain it away, but its true...

In Love
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
All manifestations of God such as Noah, Abraham, Buddha, and most recently Baha'u'llah had unique role in the ever-advancing civilization
In what universe is Noah and Abraham considered "manifestations"? Or, even prophets, or anything close to what was claimed about Jesus?
 

Jensen

Active Member
[FONT=&quot]Jensen,
When i read the old Testament we read that Jehovah is God and Savior. The same word "and" is used and doesnt separate. If you look up the Greek word for and, you will see it includes not separates. But we can look to Isaiah 44:6 where we read That Jehovah and Repurchaser of him (Jehovah of armies) speaking as one God. Clearly separate, but speaking as one God. How do you read Isaiah 44:6?
Also in Titus 2:13 (also 2 Peter 1:1) i read that Paul & Peter has no problem calling Jesus God and Savior, which ties in nicely with Is 44:6 and Is 45:21

[/FONT]i disagree with you. Paul went as far to telling the Jews that the one they knew as God who followed and protected them as their Redeemer was Jesus Christ (1 Cor 10:1-4) You keep saying that this shows 2 different individuals and as a Trinitarian I Agree with you on that. I am not a Oneness Pentecostal... i believe God has revealed himself in 3 persons and that is why i have no problem with your statement that the Father and Son are 2 different persons. The Old Testament Ties the Trinity together. For example: God says only he is the Rock, creator, savior, maker, ect... Yet we read Jesus is Rock, savior, maker... God says that he will not share his glory with another, yet we read Jesus is his Glory and has it. We read that Gods says there is no one like him, yet we read Jesus is exactly like God in every way. Just as the Universe is revealed to us as Time, Space, and Matter. i believe God is revealed to us as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Hosea 1:7 even says Jehovah will be sent to deliver his people. On and On it goes... prepare the way for Jehovah (Mat 3:3) That is why when we read that the "Eternal Word" (1John1:1-6) was God and with God (John 1:1) although equal to God (phil 2:5-7) didnt consider that something to hold on to, humbled himself to become a man even to die in our place. Showing the Greatest love one can express.

Is 9:6 is calling Jesus Mighty God the same as Jehovah at Isaiah 10:21 ...
it also calls Jesus Everlasting Father in the sense that he is Father of Eternity or uncreated as shown also in 1John1:1-5 where the Eternal Word is the Everlasting Life. Isaiah isnt Calling Jesus the Father, but rather the Master over Eternity. Just as satan is the Father of Lies (john 8:44)
Satan is the Originator of Falsehoods where Jesus is the Originator of Eternity. To say these things of a created being would be odd and absurd...

You are getting focused on Jesus as a humbled man. If I called Jesus the one True Lord, would you expect people to say the Father isnt Lord or True? Jesus is Called Mighty God and God are we to think he is not True? Jesus is part of the True God with the Father and Holy Spirit. Read the next verse at John 17:5... What was Jesus's Glory before the world began? God and with God, creator, Eternal word of Life, Father of eternity, the Root of David, and many many more...

1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

Jesus is included in the True God and Eternal Life for he is the Eternal Life and True God with the Father and Holy Spirit.

Not sure about Rev 2:11(maybe miss type)... but Read Revelation 22:12-16 and who do you see Speaking? There is no reason to say it is anyone else than Jesus.

The New Testament quotes passages of LORD Jehovah and applies them directly to Jesus. Hebrews 1:10-12 is a great example of the Father calling Jesus Jehovah of psalms 102:25-27... Look at Hebrews 10:13 for another example. Verse 9 clearly says we are to confess Jesus as Lord. verse 12 says the same lord (Jesus) is lord of all. Verse 13 says "Everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord be saved". The JW bible NWT changed Lord to Jehovah although the clear intention is to call upon the Name Jesus (Acts 4:10-12 clearly states this) Also continue to read verses 14-15 where is says How beautiful the feet who teach upon the one whom we are to call upon. So is it Jesus or Jehovah? The Direct quote is more proof to me that Jesus is Jehovah and the Lord that they preached day and night was Jesus (acts 5:42 and Acts 16:30-31)

Jesus is the "Real Thing"!! The Eternal word who was God and with God had to humble himself and become a man so that we could see this Image. You are focusing upon the Humbled Jesus and saying his image is not the Real Thing? Yet he is both the Real Thing and the Image... Only God could express Gods Glory to us exactly and correctly. God even says he will not share his glory with another and will not give his praises to Idols(Images) (Isa 42:8) We also read that Jehovah will be the Stone that causes many to stumble (Isa 8:13-14) and at Isa 8:8 Jehovah is called "Immanuel". That is why we read all of these quotes of Jehovah of the OT and they are "ALL" applied to Jesus.

The term "Son of God" carries less value today, then it did 2000 years ago... The Jews saw this as claiming equality with God... Do you worship Jesus? How do you see Rev 5:12-14 ... Do you see Jesus as being worshiped here or do you see differently?

Im assuming your answer to Rev 5:14 will be interesting... However, I love that you Love God and Jesus. I am just trying to open your eyes to my belief. Being a Quaker you should know that it all starts like the Thief on the cross next to Jesus. He was saved and knew very little, more than most people today however... I am here to tell you that The Father gave us an Image for us to worship in his son Jesus. You cannot worship Jesus and go wrong. One should not look to the Image of God and say "Not God, not my worship". (Not that you say that, but you may be doing it in your heart) As they say at Revelation 5:12 "Worthy is the Lamb"!

Yes, God loves us! Gods word is like a sword to all of us. I dont see you attacking me or anything like that either... Read 1 John 5:20 and see that Jesus is part of the True God and Eternal life, not apart... Then Read 1 John 1:1-5 and see that the Word was Eternal and is the Everlasting Life... This will help you understand Trinitarians beliefs in a positive lite..

Always in Love

Ice, We will never see this the same. I feel that being that Jesus is the image of God and the Son of God, and represents God, that he can be referred to by all the things that God is except Almighty God the Father. Jesus is the Son. He is the Christ, who God sent to redeem man from his sins. I do not think that being the image of another makes him the other, but a representation of the other. Jesus' message was from God the Father, and therefore originally the Fathers message, being brought to us by God's Son Jesus. Bringing this message does not make him God.

I understand why you believe as a trinitarian, and I understand it as much as anyone can understand something that seems a "mystery" according to most trinitarians. What I need is for you to see how and why there are some like myself that do not believe the trinity and why. It doesn't mean that you must accept my belief if you do understand it, anymore than I have to accept yours, and it does feel that you are moving heaven and earth to get those that believe differently to accept your belief. This may not be your intention but it is how it seems to be.

I can not and do not have time to reply to every point that you have made, sadly, so have to reply generally. If I missed answering some of your posts, it is because it is nearly impossible for me to take the time to go through all of them, this including all the verses you list, or to keep track of what I have or haven't replied to.

As for whether I believe nearly the same as JW, what I do believe has changed some over the years, and it is more different than you would think. But this isn't the message board for that.

Anyway, you believe that God is of three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and I believe that God is the Father, God of Jesus and us, that Jesus is his Son, and the Christ, not a trinity, and that isn't going to change, That is just how it is.

When I have a few minutes from time to time I will post what I believe backs the unitarian point of view on why we think the trinity is incorrect.

God bless...

Jensen:flower2:
 

Jensen

Active Member
[COLOR=Navy said:


All through the Bible, people are carving Images of their many gods out of wood, gold, silver.. They worship these images and God is not happy with them. In revelation, the Devil has an Image that people worship (Trying to be like God). So when i am told that Jesus is the Image of the invisible God, to be honored as the Father, and I worship Jesus. Do you think God is upset in any way with this? That I look to the image of God and say, "My Lord and my God", you are worthy of my worship...?

In Love
[/COLOR]

I do not think that we should be worship images, whether they be made of wood gold or silver, or anything, or anyone else, that is not God, as God.

Why not worship God the Father.

Our Father which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name....

with love, Jensen
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Through Them the Will and Attributes of God was revealed to the World of Humanity. That is well explained in Book of Certitude.
So what was the will and attributes of God that humanity learned through Noah? How to tread water? If you're going to include those two from the Jewish religion why not also Enoch, David, and Jeremiah, or Israel or Joseph? We learned something about God from all of them.

But the claims made about Jesus are not in the same league. If you'd tell me they are probably mostly fictional, I'd agree. But to say they are the word of God but figurative? Then God is the author of confusion. He has people coming to the conclusion, by what is written about Jesus, that he is God. A few hundred years later "God" tells Mohammad a different message. Progressive? Or spinning around in circles so much that people can't tell what the truth is? Did Jesus rise from the dead? I don't think Islam or the Baha'i Faith says he did. Did he walk and water and heal the sick? Is he the only way to get "saved" from your sins? Jesus talks about Satan the devil and hell. Do Bahai's? There is not a progression in the spiritual teachings of the different religions. There are major wholesale changes. And mirrors? Maybe mirrors and a lot of smoke, but not a progression. The new religion pretty much negates the previous one.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Well, that is what the Wikipedia says:

"...all scholars recognize that the Creeds themselves were created in reaction to disagreements over the nature of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. These controversies, however, were great and many, and took some centuries to be resolved."
Trinity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Alright, so the creeds were created in the 4th century. So what? That doesn't mean that their contents were first invented in the Creed. Or are we to say that no one believed that God created the heavens and the earth, and all things visible and invisible before the Fathers laid it down in the Nicene Creed? Are we to say that no one believed in the Church, in the crucifixion and Resurrection and Ascension of Christ, that He would come again to judge the living and the dead, that His kingdom would have no end, that the Holy Spirit spoke through the prophets? Of course not.

Everything that was put into the Nicene and Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creeds were things that had already been believed by the Church from the very beginning. And that includes belief in the Trinity, and Jesus' being truly God and truly man. The Creeds don't contain anything new, but were merely created to safeguard the Faith of the Apostles from heresy.

Except that a Revelation is not the absolute Truth. The absolute Truth is confined to God Himself, and He never literally came into this World.
God reveals truth gradually and progressively in accordance with the Age that people live. A Revelation comes in the measure of the capacity of intelligence of Mankind so it is logically understandable and so they can 'Bear it', as Jesus put it.
A revelation is the absolute Truth brought down to human understanding. God's Revelations cannot contradict one another.

The Church of God, in this verse is the symbolic Representation of the Religion of God. It means whenever the human beings corrupted and distorted the Religion of God, He again Reveals the Truth, so that always that Truth remains on earth for those who want to seek it. In this Age, Baha'is Believe the Religion is Renewed through the Revelation of Baha'u'llah. Moreover, that the Religious Leaders fall, does not mean the Religion itself has fallen or the gates of Hades prevailed against it.
So, God teaches different things about Who He is each time a new revelation comes? The Truth changes in each "Age"? First God is One, then God reveals Himself as the Trinity and names Jesus His Son and truly God and Man, then He denies that He is Trinity and says that Jesus is not His Son and is merely human and not God, then He says that He reflects Himself on created beings and creates some farce of a Trinity, but that there are other Manifestations that He mirrors Himself upon, so that there appears not to be a Trinity, but something with far more mirrors and images of suns? Forgive me if I'm skeptical of Baha'i claims, but anyone who is familiar with the teachings of all the Abrahamic religions will tell you that, for example, Christianity and Islam are irreconciliable, and have always taught different things from each other right from the very beginning. The Qur'an contradicts the Bible in countless places.

That He said "the Sun shall be darkened", is symbolic, as for example in 'sun of righteousness', shall be darkened (see Malachi 4:2), or for example the stars are not pure (fallen stars) and moon is dark in His site... see Job 25:5
You are connecting the Sun of Righteousness of Malachi 4:2, Who is Christ, with the sun that is to be darkened. Think about what you are saying. With this position, you are effectively denying that, either Christ is not a Mirror of God, or that God will be forced to cease shining His light. Because "the Sun shall be darkened" means that "the Sun will be made to be darkened." And can anything force God to act in a certain way, especially to stop doing something that is a part of His Nature--that is, to give light?

I never claimed that Christians don't understand the message of Christ entirely, God forbid! I am specifically discussing about the doctrine of Trinity, and how in my view it is not in the original Christian Faith and is illogical. Now, off course there is some truth in the doctrine of Trinity. But there is also additional misinterpretations and ideas.
If the Trinity is not the original Christian Faith, then the writings of the Apostles and their personal students, and their students, etc... don't show it.

He refers to spirit as 'image of the invisible' or 'the image of God', and not God Himself. Also He says 'like sun', not 'the Sun'. That is to say, the Spirit is in likeness of God, and not God Himself.
You are inferring a context that is not present there in that part of the work. St. Basil is not saying that the Spirit is merely "like" the Father. St. Basil is using an analogy to compare the Spirit to us; the Spirit is the Sun, and we are the mirrors. This is absolutely clear if you read the two chapters I posted. Likewise, according even to the Scriptures, Christ is the Sun of Righteousness, as per Malachi 4:2--not "Mirror of the Sun of Righteousness", but "Sun of Righteousness."

I'm going to post some other citations from St. Basil's work "On the Holy Spirit" that show St. Basil's teaching of Who the Holy Spirit is, and a few bonus things about Who the Son is.

14. Let us first ask them this question: In what sense do they say that the Son is “after the Father;” later in time, or in order, or in dignity? But in time no one is so devoid of sense as to assert that the Maker of the ages789 holds a second place, when no interval intervenes in the natural conjunction of the Father with the Son.790 And indeed so far as our conception of human relations goes,791 it is impossible to think of the Son as being later than the Father, not only from the fact that Father and Son are mutually conceived of in accordance with the relationship subsisting between them, but because posteriority in time is predicated of subjects separated by a less interval from the present, and priority of subjects farther off. For instance, what happened in Noah’s time is prior to what happened to the men of Sodom, inasmuch as Noah is more remote from our own day; and, again, the events of the history of the men of Sodom are posterior, because they seem in a sense to approach nearer to our own day. But, in addition to its being a breach of true religion, is it not really the extremest folly to measure the existence of the life which transcends all time and all the ages by its distance from the present? Is it not as though God the Father could be compared with, and be made superior to, God the Son, who exists before the ages, precisely in the same way in which things liable to beginning and corruption are described as prior to one another?
The superior remoteness of the Father is really inconceivable, in that thought and intelligence are wholly impotent to go beyond the generation of the Lord; and St. John has admirably confined the conception within circumscribed boundaries by two words, “In the beginning was the Word.” For thought cannot travel outside “was,” nor imagination792 beyond “beginning.” Let 9your thought travel ever so far backward you cannot get beyond the “was,” and however you may strain and strive to see what is beyond the Son, you will find it impossible to get further than the “beginningTrue religion, therefore, thus teaches us to think of the Son together with the Father.
15. If they really conceive of a kind of degradation of the Son in relation to the Father, as though He were in a lower place, so that the Father sits above, and the Son is thrust off to the next seat below, let them confess what they mean. We shall have no more to say. A plain statement of the view will at once expose its absurdity.

(cont)
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
(cont)
37. Let us then revert to the point raised from the outset, that in all things the Holy Spirit is inseparable and wholly incapable of being parted from the Father and the Son. St. Paul, in the passage about the gift of tongues, writes to the Corinthians, “If ye all prophesy and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all; and thus are the secrets of the heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God and report that God is in you of a truth.”1030 If then God is known to be in the prophets by the prophesying that is acting according to the distribution of the gifts of the Spirit, let our adversaries consider what kind of place they will attribute to the Holy Spirit. Let them say whether it is more proper to rank Him with God or to thrust Him forth to the place of the creature. Peter’s words to Sapphira, “How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? Ye have not lied unto men, but unto God,”1031 show that sins against the Holy Spirit and against God are the same; and thus you might learn that in every operation the Spirit is closely conjoined with, and inseparable from, the Father and the Son. God works the differences of operations, and the Lord the diversities of administrations, but all the while the Holy Spirit is present too of His own will, dispensing distribution of the gifts according to each recipient’s worth. For, it is said, “there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit; and differences of administrations, but the same Lord; and there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.”1032

38. . . . And in the creation bethink thee first, I pray thee, of the original cause of all things that are made, the Father; of the creative cause, the Son; of the perfecting cause, the Spirit; so that the ministering spirits subsist by the will of the Father, are brought into being by the operation of the Son, and perfected by the presence of the Spirit. Moreover, the perfection of angels is sanctification and continuance in it. And let no one imagine me either to affirm that there are three original hypostases1035 or to allege the operation of the Son to be imperfect. For the first principle of existing things is One, creating through the Son and perfecting through the Spirit.1036 The operation of the Father who worketh all in all is not imperfect, neither is the creating work of the Son incomplete if not perfected by the Spirit. The Father, who creates by His sole will, could not stand in any need of the Son, but nevertheless He wills through the Son; nor could the Son, who works according to the likeness of the Father, need co-operation, but the Son too wills to make perfect through the Spirit. “For by the word of the Lord were the 24heavens made, and all the host of them by the breath [the Spirit] of His mouth.”1037 The Word then is not a mere significant impression on the air, borne by the organs of speech; nor is the Spirit of His mouth a vapour, emitted by the organs of respiration; but the Word is He who “was with God in the beginning” and “was God,”1038 and the Spirit of the mouth of God is “the Spirit of truth which proceedeth from the Father.”1039 You are therefore to perceive three, the Lord who gives the order, the Word who creates, and the Spirit who confirms.

53. Moreover the surpassing excellence of the nature of the Spirit is to be learned not only from His having the same title as the Father and the Son, and sharing in their operations, but also from His being, like the Father and the Son, unapproachable in thought. For what our Lord says of the Father as being above and beyond human conception, and what He says of the Son, this same language He uses also of the Holy Ghost. “O righteous Father,” He says, “the world hath not known Thee,”1168 meaning here by the world not the complex whole compounded of heaven and earth, but this life of ours subject to death,1169 and exposed to innumerable vicissitudes. And when discoursing of Himself He says, “Yet a little while and the world seeth me no more, but ye see me;”1170 again in this passage, applying the word world to those who being bound down by this material and carnal life, and beholding1171 the truth by material sight alone,1172 were ordained, through their unbelief in the resurrection, to see our Lord no more with the eyes of the heart. And He said the same concerning the Spirit. “The Spirit of truth,” He says, “whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him, for He dwelleth with you.”1173 For the carnal man, who has never trained his mind to contemplation,1174 but rather keeps it buried deep in lust of the flesh,1175 as in mud, is powerless to look up to the spiritual light of the truth. And so the world, that is life enslaved by the affections of the flesh, can no more receive the grace of the Spirit than a weak eye the light of a sunbeam. But the Lord, who by His teaching bore witness to purity of life, gives to His disciples the power of now both beholding and contemplating the Spirit. For “now,” He says, “Ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you,”1176 wherefore “the world cannot receive Him, because it seeth Him not,…but ye know Him; for he dwelleth with you.”1177 And so says Isaiah;—“He that spread forth the earth and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and Spirit to them that trample on it”1178; for they that trample down earthly things and rise above them are borne witness to as worthy of the gift of the Holy Ghost. What then ought to be thought of Him whom the world cannot receive, and Whom saints alone can contemplate through pureness of heart? What kind of honours can be deemed adequate to Him?

^So you can see clearly, St. Basil can never be made to support the Baha'i position. He is solidly Orthodox in his interpretation, and would have immediately deemed the Baha'i position as heresy. The Baha'i assert that Jesus is a created being, which St. Basil casts off as merely a revival of the Arian heresy, which he doesn't even waste time on because he's already refuted it so many times. The Baha'i assert that the Son and the Spirit are neither equal to the Father, nor one in being with Him, which St. Basil refutes and calls blasphemy and madness.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
The Word signifies the Perfections of God. Yes the Word is Eternal.
The Word does not represent the Body of Jesus, No, It represents the Divine Attributes and Perfections that became Manifested in Jesus. Jesus was like a spotless mirror, facing the Sun of Truth, and reflecting the Light of God into the World. The Sun representing God was and is eternal. The Mirror was not eternal, but He was created.
You keep ignoring and contradicting John 1:14, which states that the Word became flesh. You cannot get around this verse. It will obstruct your argument and hinder you in every way you try to go.

I have already quoted another verse from Bible, that God relative to Jesus, is like the Gardener to Vine Tree. The vine tree is dependent upon the Gardner and is planted by Him.
You are extrapolating on the parable things that Jesus did not use that parable for. Jesus was explaining how He is the Vine, and we who cling to Him are like the grapes; if we don't bear fruit, then the Father will cut us off from the Church, which is the Vine and the Body of Christ.

The absolute Truth is confined to God Himself. However in every Age, He reveals a 'relative Truth' in accordance with the requirement of Age. The Word that was Manifested with Jesus, was in accordance with that Age.
For example Jesus said:
"....he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery." Luke 16:18

As you see, such words although revealed by God, it was meant for that Age. It is not applicable to our time. It was a perfect remedy and solution for the problems of that Age. That is the relative Truth.
Moses also revealed the word of God, but for example He revealed a different Law with regards to divorce than Jesus, because Moses came for a different Age.
So because Jesus made the laws of divorce more difficult than Moses and raised the moral bar, this must mean that God changes His story each time? God never really gives us the Truth, but gives us changeable half-truths? This makes God the author of confusion. If He established Christianity, and then Islam, and then Baha'ism, then this means that He is profoundly changing His story each time, founding fundamentally different religions that teach fundamentally different things. As you yourself said, God is not the author of confusion. Yet such a belief has God confusing mankind at every turn, saying one thing to one people in one time, and saying a different thing to another people at another time.

Baha'is believe in this Age the Word is Manifested in Baha'u'llah.
You're free to believe that. We Christians hold fast to Jesus and what He taught us.

The verses that shows Christ was a Mirror of God. In another words Christ was an exact representation of God, but not God Himself who has preexistence.
Then the verse that says "The Word was God" is a lie. John 1:1 is another verse that continually stands in your way.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
You keep ignoring and contradicting John 1:14, which states that the Word became flesh. You cannot get around this verse. It will obstruct your argument and hinder you in every way you try to go.
There is no contradiction. I already explained 'the Word became Flesh' is not to be understood literally. If you believe in literal reading of the verse it is up to you. When you place a Mirror in front of the Sun, you see the Sun in it, and you say 'It is the Sun'. In another Words, the Mirror becomes Like the Sun. Just try placing a Mirror in front of the Sun and see how the mirror becomes Sun. This is an analogy, do not treat this analogy literally, and say 'the mirror does not become sun'.




So because Jesus made the laws of divorce more difficult than Moses and raised the moral bar, this must mean that God changes His story each time? God never really gives us the Truth, but gives us changeable half-truths? This makes God the author of confusion. If He established Christianity, and then Islam, and then Baha'ism, then this means that He is profoundly changing His story each time, founding fundamentally different religions that teach fundamentally different things. As you yourself said, God is not the author of confusion. Yet such a belief has God confusing mankind at every turn, saying one thing to one people in one time, and saying a different thing to another people at another time.
Please note the correct term is 'Baha'i Faith'.
A revelation is like a remedy for humanity. Each Age has its own problems, thus it requires a different remedy. Thus God, the All-knowing physician, formulates a set of teachings suitable for the Age people live in.
It is like yesterday a man had infection, doctor gave him Antibiotics. Another Day same man has stomach problem, the same Doctor prescribes a different medicine. Simple as that.


Then the verse that says "The Word was God" is a lie. John 1:1 is another verse that continually stands in your way.

The Word was God, meaning that the Word signifies the Perfections of God. Later the Perfections of God became Manifest in Jesus, who was a Mirror showing the Image of God.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
You keep ignoring and contradicting John 1:14, which states that the Word became flesh.
Then the verse that says "The Word was God" is a lie. John 1:1 is another verse that continually stands in your way.
I've been, to the best of my ability to believe, both a Baha'i and a Christian. The Baha'i Faith has more practical teachings for creating a more peaceful, cooperative world civilization. It gets to the essence of all religions, like love thy neighbor as thy self sort of things, and then presents rules and regulations for a spiritual world community. I bought in. But, then when a Christian friend showed me verses in the Bible in context, I saw that Christianity was talking about something totally different. Jesus, through the Holy Spirit comes to dwell inside. He said that when he, the Holy Spirit comes, he will lead you into all truth. Baha'is told that verse was talking about Baha'u'llah. In context, it was obviously talking about the Holy Spirit which did come at Pentecost.

So Christianity was teaching me that Jesus was the word made flesh and the word was God. And, then the Holy Spirit also was essentially God. Christians now and Christians then can't explain it very well, but it's implied all over the NT. Great, they are all part of God. They are some sort of Trinity, fine. But the NT also adds in Satan. Who is he? An evil spirit being? Baha'is don't believe in him. To them evil is the absence of light or something, maybe like turning our mirrors away from the light so it doesn't reflect the goodness. That kind of makes sense.

So it comes down to: If the Baha'is are right, every religion is right, or was right for its time. If Christianity is right. It's the only one that is right. Not even its predecessor, Judaism, is right any longer. Which one makes more sense? Which religion is more practical? Which religion is telling the truth? Is God a trinity? Is that the absolute truth? Or, Is God one, and Jesus, and all other prophets mirrors? Because religions can't agree, many people gravitate toward the other option and check the box that says, "none of the above". Unfortunately, God appears to be the author of confusion. It's all words and imply different things to different people and can be interpreted a hundred different ways, nothing is written in stone. And the things, supposedly, written in stone got lost and broken.
 
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