The Trinity

[Shiranui117]

There is no contradiction. I already explained 'the Word became Flesh' is not to be understood literally. If you believe in literal reading of the verse it is up to you.

What verse of the Bible don't the Baha'i understand figuratively?

You can interpret the Bible how you want. Just know that the Biblical authors understood their own texts in a way that is different from how you do, as did their students.

When you place a Mirror in front of the Sun, you see the Sun in it, and you say 'It is the Sun'. In another Words, the Mirror becomes Like the Sun. Just try placing a Mirror in front of the Sun and see how the mirror becomes Sun. This is an analogy, do not treat this analogy literally, and say 'the mirror does not become sun'.

I know it's an analogy, but it's a terrible analogy that just does not work and makes no sense. The analogy is fundamentally flawed in terms of the argument that it attempts to make, and it has major logical errors. You cannot present it as a coherent and/or rational argument, least of all as a way to explain the relationship of the Holy Spirit and Jesus AKA the Logos to the Father.

Please note the correct term is 'Baha'i Faith'.

Thanks for that. It looked weird the way I typed it, just couldn't put my finger on how...

A revelation is like a remedy for humanity. Each Age has its own problems, thus it requires a different remedy. Thus God, the All-knowing physician, formulates a set of teachings suitable for the Age people live in.
It is like yesterday a man had infection, doctor gave him Antibiotics. Another Day same man has stomach problem, the same Doctor prescribes a different medicine. Simple as that.

With moral guidelines, sure, I can conceive of that. But when God is giving us contradictory messages about Who He is and saying that previous revelations are basically wrong, that's an issue.

The Word was God, meaning that the Word signifies the Perfections of God. Later the Perfections of God became Manifest in Jesus, who was a Mirror showing the Image of God.

Jesus is that image, not a reflection of it. I have explained this to you numerous times, yet you continue to ignore and miss that fundamental point. This entire argument of yours has been disproven through the Scriptures and the writings of the early Christians, and now you just assert that the Bible doesn't mean what it says and doesn't say what it means in order to justify continued attempts to read your own ideas back into the text that just are not there, and you have tried to find support among the early Christians who clearly and demonstrably teach something different from what you do. The entire spectacle is an exercise in mental gymnastics and misreadings of the Biblical and Patristic texts.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Alright, so the creeds were created in the 4th century. So what? That doesn't mean that their contents were first invented in the Creed. Or are we to say that no one believed that God created the heavens and the earth, and all things visible and invisible before the Fathers laid it down in the Nicene Creed? Are we to say that no one believed in the Church, in the crucifixion and Resurrection and Ascension of Christ, that He would come again to judge the living and the dead, that His kingdom would have no end, that the Holy Spirit spoke through the prophets? Of course not

Well the matter of fact is, Trinity Doctrine is an 'interpretation' of Bible with regards to the station and relations between the Three. In another Words, the Trinity Doctrine is not like God came and said: "This is what I meant by Son, Father and Holy Spirit". No! There was disagreement among Christians as they had different interpretations. Eventually one of the group of Christians became dominant....

Everything that was put into the Nicene and Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creeds were things that had already been believed by the Church from the very beginning. And that includes belief in the Trinity, and Jesus' being truly God and truly man. The Creeds don't contain anything new, but were merely created to safeguard the Faith of the Apostles from heresy.

Just by comparing the creed and Bible we see there are differences. For example Jesus said 'the Father is greater than I' and 'the father sent Me', but the creed insists the Father and Jesus are equal. Now, off course, you would say the reason Jesus said 'the Father is greater' is because He made Himself Humble or because He is begotten. But that is an interpretation. It is not like Jesus said 'the reason i say the Father is greater than I is because He begot Me, otherwise I and Father are equal'. No! He did not say such a thing. One needs to be fair and free from bias to see this.

A revelation is the absolute Truth brought down to human understanding. God's Revelations cannot contradict one another.

once it is brought down to human understanding it is not that same absolute Truth anymore.

So, God teaches different things about Who He is each time a new revelation comes? The Truth changes in each "Age"? First God is One, then God reveals Himself as the Trinity and names Jesus His Son and truly God and Man, then He denies that He is Trinity and says that Jesus is not His Son and is merely human and not God, then He says that He reflects Himself on created beings and creates some farce of a Trinity, but that there are other Manifestations that He mirrors Himself upon, so that there appears not to be a Trinity, but something with far more mirrors and images of suns? Forgive me if I'm skeptical of Baha'i claims, but anyone who is familiar with the teachings of all the Abrahamic religions will tell you that, for example, Christianity and Islam are irreconciliable, and have always taught different things from each other right from the very beginning. The Qur'an contradicts the Bible in countless places.

The revelations of God are not contradicting. I am certain that if they are interpreted properly they won't contradict. Consider Christian Faith alone. There are so many denominations. Many of these denominations contradict with other denominations, because each have a different understanding about what the True Christian Faith is. It is obvious then, when God reveals in different Ages, people in each Age would have different understanding every time. But that apparent contradiction is related to misunderstandings of people, and not the Revelations.

You are connecting the Sun of Righteousness of Malachi 4:2, Who is Christ, with the sun that is to be darkened. Think about what you are saying. With this position, you are effectively denying that, either Christ is not a Mirror of God, or that God will be forced to cease shining His light. Because "the Sun shall be darkened" means that "the Sun will be made to be darkened." And can anything force God to act in a certain way, especially to stop doing something that is a part of His Nature--that is, to give light?

No, my intention was certainly not to connect Malachi 4:2 to say that Sun is darkened. My point was just to show how Sun, Moon and Stars can be used with different metaphorical meanings, rather than just the literal meaning.

Jesus is that image, not a reflection of it.....

Jesus is a Mirror with image of God manifested in Him....and a Mirror 'reflects' light. You cannot have a Mirror that does not reflect. Also the image of God does not appear in 'nothingness' or in 'air', it appears in a Mirror being the Christ.
For example He said 'I am in the Father, and the Father in Me', He also said to the disciples 'you are in Me and I am in you'. By these words is meant that same perfections that exists in the Father is in Christ, and same Perfections is in the disciples. Just as the Light of Sun that is reflected by the Mirror of Christ into other mirrors being the disciples. Thus same Light that exist in Sun (God), is in Christ and is in His disciples. The Light symbolises all the attributes of God. But the disciples did not receive the light directly from God, No, they received it through Christ, because He was the intermediate Mirror 'facing the Sun of Reality' directly. Other mirrors do not face directly toward the Sun of Reality, therefore they can only receive their Light from the intermediate Mirror, and this is due to difference in nature of Manifestations of God. They naturally are detached from the World of dust, and their holy reality is heavenly.

You are inferring a context that is not present there in that part of the work. St. Basil is not saying that the Spirit is merely "like" the Father. St. Basil is using an analogy to compare the Spirit to us; the Spirit is the Sun, and we are the mirrors.

That is also a correct and interesting interpretation. I only wanted to show Mirror and sun analogy was used in early Christian Writings and of course Bible.
Here is another One:

"For the LORD God is a sun and shield; the LORD bestows favor and honor; no good thing does he withhold from those whose walk is blameless." Psalm 84:11

And here is another One:

"There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light." Matt. 17:2

and

"When Moses came down from Mount Sinai with the two tablets of the covenant law in his hands, he was not aware that his face was radiant because he had spoken with the LORD." Exod. 34:29


Now Jesus was a Manifestation of Jehovah. So, God being the Sun of Truth, is hidden from the eyes of Mankind. He is the Invisible, and He does not change 'I the Lord do not change'. He also said: 'if you see me you die'. Thus every time He wishes to make Himself known and speak among people, He creates a Mirror facing His own self, and He Manifests Himself in this Mirror and the Sun of Truth rises at that time. Thus for example once the Sun rose through Moses, and another time through Jesus. In both case the scriptures uses symbolism "His face shone like the sun or became radiant".
Now since it is the same image of God that appears in Mirrors, therefore that same image 'returns' every time. Therefore in this sense Jesus was the return of Moses. By return is meant the Return of God's Perfections in a new Person, and Baha'is believe Baha'u'llah in this way fulfills the Prophecies regarding the return of Christ.

 

[kjw47]

The cross and the trinity are both sort of entwined to come up with the trinity doctrine, which is of course, is made up.

How could anyone actually think Jesus would start a religion with a pagan cross( table of demons) as its symbol---this world is so blind. The great apostasy chose the symbol.

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

How could anyone actually think Jesus would start a religion with a pagan cross( table of demons) as its symbol---this world is so blind. The great apostasy chose the symbol.

Umm...because, that was kind of the thing he died on. Crucifixion was a method of torture used by the Romans. Since their messiah was crucified on a cross, they use the cross as their symbol... It's quite simple really.

 

[Jensen]

I think I meant Rev 4:11 CJB

11 “You are worthy, Adonai Eloheinu,
to have glory, honor and power,
because you created all things —
yes, because of your will they were created
and came into being!”

 

[Jensen]

[FONT=&quot]God has no beginning (Psalm 90:2) - Jesus had a beginning (Matthew 1:18; Luke 1:31-35)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God cannot die (1 Timothy 1:17) - Jesus died (1 Corinthians 15:3-4)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God cannot be tempted (James 1:13) - Jesus was tempted (Hebrews 4:15)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]No man or woman has ever seen God (1 John 4:12) - Jesus was seen by both men and women (John 1:29)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God is not a man (Numbers 23:19) - Jesus was and is a man (1 Timothy 2:5)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God does not ever need to learn (Isaiah 40:28) - Jesus had to grow and learn (Hebrews 5:8-9)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God does not need to be saved (Isaiah 45:7; 43:11) - Jesus needed salvation (Hebrews 5:7)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God cannot grow weary (Isaiah 40:28) - Jesus grew weary (John 4:6)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God does not sleep (Psalm 121:2-4) - Jesus slept (Matthew 8:24)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God's power is unlimited (Isaiah 45:5-7) - Jesus was limited in his power (John 5:19)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God knows all (Isaiah 46:10) - Jesus had limited knowledge (Mark 13:32) [/FONT]

 

[Jensen]

I believe the things said of Jesus surpass that of just a messenger. The words said of Jesus are much more. The Eternal Word of Life, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, First and Last, Jehovah of Armies, Jehovah our Righteousness, God, Creator of all Things, Maker, Root of David, Immanuel, God with Us, Worthy is the Lamb, and some Im forgetting. There would be no reason for Jesus to be all of these if he where not God and just Gods messenger... Just as Jehovah Made it rain sulfur from Jehovah in heaven, I see that Jehovah sent Jehovah himself... (Hosea 1:7) Jehovah talking and he will send Jehovah. Then we read make ready they way of Jehovah, who then appears as Immanuel God with us, and named Jesus.

When reading these translations we see that it is referring to God and not Jesus. I will highlight what I mean.


Hosea 1:7
King James 2000 Bible
But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.

American Standard Version
But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by Jehovah their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.

Darby Bible Translation
But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by Jehovah their God; and I will not save them by bow, or by sword, or by battle, [or] by horses, or by horsemen.

World English Bible
But I will have mercy on the house of Judah, and will save them by Yahweh their God, and will not save them by bow, sword, battle, horses, or horsemen."

 

[Ouroboros]

Umm...because, that was kind of the thing he died on. Crucifixion was a method of torture used by the Romans. Since their messiah was crucified on a cross, they use the cross as their symbol... It's quite simple really.

No one knows if it was a crux immissa (T) or crux commissa (+) or crux simplex (I). It could also have been in X.

I think the first use of any crucifix was in the second or third century, so how can anyone be sure they knew for sure either. Maybe it was a combination of things that made them choose one out of four versions? Maybe the crux ansata was an inspiration to pick the commissa?

 

[Shiranui117]

How could anyone actually think Jesus would start a religion with a pagan cross( table of demons) as its symbol---this world is so blind. The great apostasy chose the symbol.

You call the cross of Christ pagan? You call the instrument through which man is reconciled to God and through which our sins are washed away, a table of demons?

Philippians 3:
17 Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us. 18 For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ, 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their [a]appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things.

Far be it from me to ever reject the weapon of Christ's victory over sin and death, the sword that has cut us loose from our bonds and even now acts as a ladder established by Christ back to Paradise.

 

[Jensen]

You call the cross of Christ pagan? You call the instrument through which man is reconciled to God and through which our sins are washed away, a table of demons?

Philippians 3:
17 Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us. 18 For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ, 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their [a]appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things.

Far be it from me to ever reject the weapon of Christ's victory over sin and death, the sword that has cut us loose from our bonds and even now acts as a ladder established by Christ back to Paradise.

It wasn't the weapon of Christ's death that is the victory over sin, and death....It was Christ himself and that he died for our sins so that we can have the hope in the New Kingdom. Regardless of what weapon had been used, it wasn't the weapon, it was Christ and his death that is important.

 

[CG Didymus]

Just by comparing the creed and Bible we see there are differences. For example Jesus said 'the Father is greater than I' and 'the father sent Me', but the creed insists the Father and Jesus are equal.

That a pretty important thing to consider. If we take what Jesus says as literal, then he is less than the Father. But a man, John, said the word became flesh? Jesus did things that supposedly only God was allowed to do, like forgive sins. Therefore, by his actions, he must be God? But then, like you say, it could all be figurative. But then you say:

The revelations of God are not contradicting. I am certain that if they are interpreted properly they won't contradict.

What do Hindu's believe? What do Buddhist's believe? Do they contradict Judaism? You say Noah and Abraham are manifestations of God the same Moses. But to Jews, there weren't like Moses. The differences between Judaism and Christianity are enormous. The Law and the Sabbath in their writings says they are forever. Most Christians don't follow them at all. Jews have one God that ordained animal sacrifices. Christians have a trinity and no sacrifices, plus they have a devil. Islam, should be a progression, but didn't they have animal sacrifices? If they did, then God changed his mind and added that "social" law back in?

But the biggest difference is the one time sacrifice by Jesus to save all that would believe in him. None of the other religions really honors that. Is he God? That is what it implies. Did the gospel writers misquote Jesus and misinterpret things he said? Very possible. But everything about what has become Christianity is either completely right or completely wrong. Do any of us believe we are doomed for hell unless we accept Jesus? Are we born with "original sin" or have a "sin nature"? These concepts are not changeable social laws. If we don't believe them, fine. But, these are basic doctrinal beliefs of many Christians. The only thing I can think of is perhaps there was a smudge on the mirror when it was reflecting the Sun?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

That a pretty important thing to consider. If we take what Jesus says as literal, then he is less than the Father. But a man, John, said the word became flesh? Jesus did things that supposedly only God was allowed to do, like forgive sins. Therefore, by his actions, he must be God? But then, like you say, it could all be figurative. But then you say:
What do Hindu's believe? What do Buddhist's believe? Do they contradict Judaism? You say Noah and Abraham are manifestations of God the same Moses. But to Jews, there weren't like Moses. The differences between Judaism and Christianity are enormous. The Law and the Sabbath in their writings says they are forever. Most Christians don't follow them at all. Jews have one God that ordained animal sacrifices. Christians have a trinity and no sacrifices, plus they have a devil. Islam, should be a progression, but didn't they have animal sacrifices? If they did, then God changed his mind and added that "social" law back in?

But the biggest difference is the one time sacrifice by Jesus to save all that would believe in him. None of the other religions really honors that. Is he God? That is what it implies. Did the gospel writers misquote Jesus and misinterpret things he said? Very possible. But everything about what has become Christianity is either completely right or completely wrong. Do any of us believe we are doomed for hell unless we accept Jesus? Are we born with "original sin" or have a "sin nature"? These concepts are not changeable social laws. If we don't believe them, fine. But, these are basic doctrinal beliefs of many Christians. The only thing I can think of is perhaps there was a smudge on the mirror when it was reflecting the Sun?

All great religions of the world were revealed by the One True God in their own age, and each has been a way to God. Each of these religions have a Promised One, who would come at the end of Age to renew the True Religion. To Christians, the return of Christ was promised, to Jews, the everlasting Father, to Hindus, the kalki Avatar, to Buddhist, the fifth Buddha,...and so forth. Baha'is believe all these religions indeed prophesied of the same Person, and Baha'u'llah is the fulfillment of that Person who came and taught the True Religion for this Age. Therefore, off course there are apparently differences between these Religions, but the differences are due to the fact that each religion was revealed according to the exigencies of their own time. In this Age Baha'u'llah repeatedly asked to pay our attention to the requirements of this Age.....But I don't see much connection with the OP which is Trinity, therefore I won't go any farther and I leave it as that.

 

[CG Didymus]

All great religions of the world were revealed by the One True God in their own age, and each has been a way to God. Each of these religions have a Promised One, who would come at the end of Age to renew the True Religion. To Christians, the return of Christ was promised, to Jews, the everlasting Father, to Hindus, the kalki Avatar, to Buddhist, the fifth Buddha,...and so forth. Baha'is believe all these religions indeed prophesied of the same Person, and Baha'u'llah is the fulfillment of that Person who came and taught the True Religion for this Age. Therefore, off course there are apparently differences between these Religions, but the differences are due to the fact that each religion was revealed according to the exigencies of their own time. In this Age Baha'u'llah repeatedly asked to pay our attention to the requirements of this Age.....But I don't see much connection with the OP which is Trinity, therefore I won't go any farther and I leave it as that.

The connection is: If you are right, there is no trinity. If trinitarian Christians are right, everybody else is not only wrong, but they are believing in a false religion. But the oneness or sameness of the religions is what I'm questioning. The Christian Bible implies that Jesus is God. He died to save sinners. They believe that there is a being called Satan that will be cast into a real place called hell. These are not social teachings. They were presented by Jesus and his disciples as the word of God. Not just for that time, at that place. What good did those teachings do for Judaism? Should all Jews have dropped practicing what they believed God told them to follow the new teachings of Jesus? I'm questioning your view of the progression of religion. How does karma and reincarnation and the many gods from Hinduism correspond with what God told the Jews? Now if you say every people and culture developed ideas of who and what is the truth, whether it be many gods, one god, or no god then I'd agree. If you said the Christians built a religion out of this legendary character Jesus that made him one and equal to the God of the Jews I'd say probably. But that's not what you're saying. You're saying, somehow, all religions are from the same God and all true, they just vary on social laws.

So I agree with the Christians. With the teachings the early church fathers accepted as "gospel", Jesus is God. But, I don't believe those teachings necessarily came from God. I think there's a good chance that the teachings had a lot of mystical and spiritual things added in by his followers. Did he raise the dead and walk on water? Did he himself rise from the dead? In their teachings it says that if he didn't, they are following a false hope. But they do believe he rose from the dead. Does Islam? Does the Baha'i Faith? Or, was it symbolic and figurative?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The connection is: If you are right, there is no trinity. If trinitarian Christians are right, everybody else is not only wrong, but they are believing in a false religion. But the oneness or sameness of the religions is what I'm questioning. The Christian Bible implies that Jesus is God. He died to save sinners. They believe that there is a being called Satan that will be cast into a real place called hell. These are not social teachings. They were presented by Jesus and his disciples as the word of God. Not just for that time, at that place. What good did those teachings do for Judaism? Should all Jews have dropped practicing what they believed God told them to follow the new teachings of Jesus? I'm questioning your view of the progression of religion. How does karma and reincarnation and the many gods from Hinduism correspond with what God told the Jews? Now if you say every people and culture developed ideas of who and what is the truth, whether it be many gods, one god, or no god then I'd agree. If you said the Christians built a religion out of this legendary character Jesus that made him one and equal to the God of the Jews I'd say probably. But that's not what you're saying. You're saying, somehow, all religions are from the same God and all true, they just vary on social laws.

So I agree with the Christians. With the teachings the early church fathers accepted as "gospel", Jesus is God. But, I don't believe those teachings necessarily came from God. I think there's a good chance that the teachings had a lot of mystical and spiritual things added in by his followers. Did he raise the dead and walk on water? Did he himself rise from the dead? In their teachings it says that if he didn't, they are following a false hope. But they do believe he rose from the dead. Does Islam? Does the Baha'i Faith? Or, was it symbolic and figurative?

In my previous posts I did establish some points from Bible itself. Please refer to them. But briefly I showed:

1. Jesus Himself said He was speaking Figuratively.
2. Bible and early Christians prior to Trinity describes Jesus as Mirror of God, not incarnation of God.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

"On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you." John 14:20

"...Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me." John 17:21


How did Christ perceive 'I', and 'you' in these verses?

A) Individuality (soul, body and mind)
B) The personality
C) The Qualities and Perfections of God
D) Other

'A' is not True, because it is meaningless that the persons of disciples were inside the body of Christ literally. Likewise the individuality of Christ was not inside the Father.

'B' is also not true. Because Jesus and the disciples of Jesus all had different personalities.

'C' is correct. Because same attributes and spiritual qualities and perfections that Jesus had, was reflected in His disciples. These were same Qualities that originated from God that was reflected by Christ, like a Mirror that reflects the Light of God.

 

[kjw47]

You call the cross of Christ pagan? You call the instrument through which man is reconciled to God and through which our sins are washed away, a table of demons?

Philippians 3:
17 Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us. 18 For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ, 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their [a]appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things.

Far be it from me to ever reject the weapon of Christ's victory over sin and death, the sword that has cut us loose from our bonds and even now acts as a ladder established by Christ back to Paradise.

A carved piece of wood or little metal object( icon) accomplished 0 for mankind---the perfect mortal Jesus accomplished it all. to the glory of his God and Father.( enemies of the cross of Christ-means enemies of his sacrifice. And as well--the greek word stauros-( stake or pole) was used in error as cross in trinity translations--along with many other misleading errors.

 

[CG Didymus]

In my previous posts I did establish some points from Bible itself. Please refer to them. But briefly I showed:

1. Jesus Himself said He was speaking Figuratively.
2. Bible and early Christians prior to Trinity describes Jesus as Mirror of God, not incarnation of God.

So when the NT writers said that Jesus rose from the dead, that was figurative? When the NT said that they saw him, ate with him and spoke with him after he had been killed, that was figurative? Please explain what the Baha'i Faith teaches, because Jesus rising from the dead to save us from our sins sounds to me the whole point of the NT, and is very much part of why they believe he is God in the flesh.

 

[Shiranui117]

A carved piece of wood or little metal object( icon) accomplished 0 for mankind---the perfect mortal Jesus accomplished it all. to the glory of his God and Father.( enemies of the cross of Christ-means enemies of his sacrifice. And as well--the greek word stauros-( stake or pole) was used in error as cross in trinity translations--along with many other misleading errors.

So you think Koine Greek-speaking Christians reading a Koine Greek Bible didn't know what Koine Greek words meant? Sorry, but that sounds incredibly unlikely to me, to put it lightly. The Greek-speaking Christians knew what they meant when they wrote the Greek New Testament Scriptures, and when they put Stavros, they meant "Cross". Otherwise you wouldn't see crosses all over Greece today. Christians were speaking of the CROSS of Christ long before the New Testament Scriptures were ever translated into a language that wasn't Greek. Don't believe me? Check Christian iconography from the first few centuries AD, and the graffiti the pagans used to mock Jesus.

You have to understand that our Trinitarian reading doesn't come from translations of the Bible. The Trinitarian understanding of the Bible used and still uses the original Greek manuscripts. We don't need to rely on translations; the text in its original language already supports us. Otherwise you would see a radically different form of Christianity in Greece and the Middle East than what we do today--that is, we see Orthodox Christianity.

 

[Shiranui117]

It wasn't the weapon of Christ's death that is the victory over sin, and death....It was Christ himself and that he died for our sins so that we can have the hope in the New Kingdom. Regardless of what weapon had been used, it wasn't the weapon, it was Christ and his death that is important.

All true, and all granted. But the fact is that no one who would attempt to call themselves Christian has any right to call the Cross of Christ "pagan" or a "table of demons". To do such a thing would be to insult what Christ did for us. I'm fine if unbelievers do that, but to see those who claim to believe insulting the means that Christ chose to redeem us, calling it pagan and demonic, now that is sad.

 

[kjw47]

So you think Koine Greek-speaking Christians reading a Koine Greek Bible didn't know what Koine Greek words meant? Sorry, but that sounds incredibly unlikely to me, to put it lightly. The Greek-speaking Christians knew what they meant when they wrote the Greek New Testament Scriptures, and when they put Stavros, they meant "Cross". Otherwise you wouldn't see crosses all over Greece today. Christians were speaking of the CROSS of Christ long before the New Testament Scriptures were ever translated into a language that wasn't Greek. Don't believe me? Check Christian iconography from the first few centuries AD, and the graffiti the pagans used to mock Jesus.

You have to understand that our Trinitarian reading doesn't come from translations of the Bible. The Trinitarian understanding of the Bible used and still uses the original Greek manuscripts. We don't need to rely on translations; the text in its original language already supports us. Otherwise you would see a radically different form of Christianity in Greece and the Middle East than what we do today--that is, we see Orthodox Christianity.

There are 0 original manuscripts in existence.
Then why did Abraham, Job, Moses, David, Elijah, Daniel Isaiah, Etc all serve a single being God named YHWH(Jehovah)-- every Israelite that served the true God served a single being God named YHWH(Jehovah)
This is the God served by Paul, Peter, Matthew, Mark, etc,etc even Jesus--Jesus was taught a single being God named YHWH(Jehovah) in the synagogues his first 30 years. The one Jesus calls God--John 20:17, rev 3:12

The facts of history and Jesus' own words contradict a trinity god.