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The Trinity

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Except, Jesus Himself is the Sun of Righteousness (Malachi 4:2). Plus, no creature could possibly perfectly reflect God's attributes, because God is so far above every creature, and His perfection is limitless. If Jesus COULD perfectly reflect all of God's attributes, then this must logically mean that He is above creation.

Except God is well capable of Creating such a Mirror that can perfectly manifest His own image, and in fact according to scriptures He did.

Also, God is Sun (Psalm 84:11). If Sun comes down to earth we all die. Interestingly, according to scriptures, God said if you see Me directly you die:
But,"

"you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live." Exodus 33:20

Therefore He created Mirrors on the earth, and He reveals His Will and Attributes through the Mirrors.
Yes, Jesus is the Sun of Righteousness, since the Sun's image was manifested in Him.



You're assuming that because the prophets were mere mortals, that Jesus is too. But the Bible says otherwise; it says that Jesus is uncreated.

None of the Prophets were mortal in terms of their Souls. Yes their physical body died just as Jesus did.



We Christians also speak of one God, not two gods or three gods. We speak of one God Who is three Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Saint Basil said: "We speak of One king and a king's image". and the scriptures also calls Jesus image of God.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Except God is well capable of Creating such a Mirror that can perfectly manifest His own image, and in fact according to scriptures He did.
What Scriptures are you talking about? Because I know you're not talking about the Bible.

Also, God is Sun (Psalm 84:11).
So is Jesus, the Sun of Righteousness. This means that Jesus is God. Glad you're catching on!

If Sun comes down to earth we all die. Interestingly, according to scriptures, God said if you see Me directly you die:
But,"

"you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live." Exodus 33:20

Therefore He created Mirrors on the earth, and He reveals His Will and Attributes through the Mirrors.
Jesus is God clothed in human flesh, so no one ever saw Jesus' Divine Nature or Divine Essence.

Yes, Jesus is the Sun of Righteousness, since the Sun's image was manifested in Him.
Except that doesn't logically work. You speak of how things in religion have to be logical. Your entire "analogy of the Sun and Mirror" is one big walking logical error.

None of the Prophets were mortal in terms of their Souls. Yes their physical body died just as Jesus did.
Define "mortal". I said "mere mortal", that is, nothing more than mortal, created humans. Jesus, however, is different from the Prophets. He is Uncreated, whereas the Prophets are all created.

Saint Basil said: "We speak of One king and a king's image". and the scriptures also calls Jesus image of God.
I thought we've been over the fact that St. Basil directly refutes your view of Who Jesus is. If you want to go over this again, then post the source of that quote.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Jesus is God clothed in human flesh, so no one ever saw Jesus' Divine Nature or Divine Essence.
Jesus said: "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father". Now you are saying God put a cloth on and they didn't really see Him. But if we say Jesus was a Mirror who showed the image of God, as the scriptures and early Christians said, there is no contradiction.


Except that doesn't logically work. You speak of how things in religion have to be logical. Your entire "analogy of the Sun and Mirror" is one big walking logical error.

You still haven't explained why you think it is illogical.


Define "mortal". I said "mere mortal", that is, nothing more than mortal, created humans. Jesus, however, is different from the Prophets. He is Uncreated, whereas the Prophets are all created.
There is no verse that says Jesus is uncreated. In fact this verse says, Jesus was part of Creation:

Colossians 1:15, in speaking of Jesus: “who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation”.

Note, it does not say, He is born before all creation, but it say the firstborn OF all creation. The key is 'OF', making Him part of creation.


I thought we've been over the fact that St. Basil directly refutes your view of Who Jesus is. If you want to go over this again, then post the source of that quote.

Yes we have. Feel free to find the quote. I already posted in this thread. But I am specifically referring to the part that Basil says: "We speak of one King and One image of King. We do not speak of two Kings". Now it is obvious He is differentiating between God and God's image.
 
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InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
I don't think it's fair to argue against the Trinity when Baha'i don't even believe in the Christian definition of the resurrection. Of course you don't believe he's God.

The Baha'i belief with regards to Jesus, is exactly what the Bible says.

Jesus is described with several verses in the Bible, and each one reveals a view.
However there has been different opinions with this regard, among the Christian scholars.

To further explain this the Baha'i scriptures, has used an analogy.
In the analogy, God is likened to the Sun, as the Source of Reality.
The Manifestations of God, who are prophets, are likened to Mirrors who perfectly reflect the light of the Sun of Reality.

From the scriptures, I place some quotes here:

"...the Reality of Christ was a clear and polished mirror of the greatest purity and fineness. The Sun of Reality, the Essence of Divinity, reflected itself in this mirror and manifested its light and heat in it; but from the exaltation of its holiness, and the heaven of its sanctity, the Sun did not descend to dwell and abide in the mirror. No, it continues to subsist in its exaltation and sublimity, while appearing and becoming manifest in the mirror in beauty and perfection.
Now if we say that we have seen the Sun in two mirrors—one the Christ and one the Holy Spirit—that is to say, that we have seen three Suns, one in heaven and the two others on the earth, we speak truly. And if we say that there is one Sun, and it is pure singleness, and has no partner and equal, we again speak truly.
The epitome of the discourse is that the Reality of Christ was a clear mirror, and the Sun of Reality—that is to say, the Essence of Oneness, with its infinite perfections and attributes—became visible in the mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, became divided and multiplied—for the Sun is one—but it appeared in the mirror. This is why Christ said, “The Father is in the Son,” meaning that the Sun is visible and manifest in this mirror.
The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which becomes visible and evident in the Reality of Christ. The Sonship station is the heart of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is the station of the spirit of Christ. Hence it has become certain and proved that the Essence of Divinity is absolutely unique and has no equal, no likeness, no equivalent.
This is the signification of the Three Persons of the Trinity. If it were otherwise, the foundations of the Religion of God would rest upon an illogical proposition which the mind could never conceive, and how can the mind be forced to believe a thing which it cannot conceive? A thing cannot be grasped by the intelligence except when it is clothed in an intelligible form; otherwise, it is but an effort of the imagination.
It has now become clear, from this explanation, what is the meaning of the Three Persons of the Trinity. The Oneness of God is also proved." Abdulbaha - Some Answered Questions
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
The Baha'i belief with regards to Jesus, is exactly what the Bible says.

Jesus is described with several verses in the Bible, and each one reveals a view.
No, the Baha'i belief is not what the Bible says. Otherwise it wouldn't have taken 1800 years and another religion's prophet to invent the interpretation.

Let me put it to you this way: The Apostles never interpreted the Bible as you did, nor did their personal students who learned from them for decades, whose writings we still have intact and in their original form. So if what you say is true, then the Biblical authors didn't even know how to understand their own writings, yet people of a different religion, different language, different culture and different time, far removed from those of the Biblical authors, could. Which means that Christians never had the truth to begin with, not even the Apostles of Jesus.

However there has been different opinions with this regard, among the Christian scholars.
And not a single one of them for 1800 years has come up with the Baha'i position. Not the Apostles, not their students, not anyone else.

Now if we say that we have seen the Sun in two mirrors—one the Christ and one the Holy Spirit—that is to say, that we have seen three Suns, one in heaven and the two others on the earth, we speak truly. And if we say that there is one Sun, and it is pure singleness, and has no partner and equal, we again speak truly.
The epitome of the discourse is that the Reality of Christ was a clear mirror, and the Sun of Reality—that is to say, the Essence of Oneness, with its infinite perfections and attributes—became visible in the mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, became divided and multiplied—for the Sun is one—but it appeared in the mirror.
Now hold on, I thought you said that the Divine Essence could never be made visible, and that's why Jesus could not possibly be God according to you? Yet here your own scriptures say that the Essence of God, with its infinite perfections and attributes, became visible in the mirror. So which is it?
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Except God is well capable of Creating such a Mirror that can perfectly manifest His own image, and in fact according to scriptures He did.

What Scriptures are you talking about? Because I know you're not talking about the Bible.

Yes, Bible teaches God is omnipotent.

He is omnipotent, yes. But His creations are not. Creatures cannot perfectly reflect God, because God is so far above creatures.

Except Jesus did not reflect the attributes of God on His own Will, that is why Jesus said:

"Jesus gave them this answer: "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does." John 5:19

"By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me. ; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me." John 5:30
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Now hold on, I thought you said that the Divine Essence could never be made visible, and that's why Jesus could not possibly be God according to you? Yet here your own scriptures say that the Essence of God, with its infinite perfections and attributes, became visible in the mirror. So which is it?

The Scriptures teach us God is invisible and He does not change.
What Trinity Doctrine teaches is, God took a new form; the invisible God, took the form of the visible flesh. This signifies a change in the Essence of God.
But that is not how God manifested Himself to us according to scriptures. The Holy Soul of Christ was like a perfect Mirror, manifesting the Will and Attributes of God, hence the image of God appeared in this Mirror. Now because Jesus had also the physical body of a man, then His words and actions was in reality the Manifestation of the Will of God, hence the Word became flesh.
 
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Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Except Jesus did not reflect the attributes of God on His own Will, that is why Jesus said:

"Jesus gave them this answer: "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does." John 5:19

"By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me. ; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me." John 5:30
Yes, because Jesus has the same Divine Will as the Father. What the Father wills, the Son wills also. They do not have two different wills, in that the Son's will is merely an imitation or copy of the Father's, but the Father and the Son share the one and the same Divine Will.

The Scriptures teach us God is invisible and He does not change.
What Trinity Doctrine teaches is, God took a new form; the invisible God, took the form of the visible flesh. This signifies a change in the Essence of God.
No, it doesn't. Every Sunday during the Orthodox Divine Liturgy, in a practice dating back centuries and centuries ago, we sing "O Only-Begotten Son and Word of God, Who being immortal, willed for our salvation, to become incarnate of the holy Birthgiver of God and Ever-Virgin Mary, and without change became man..." God the Son's becoming incarnate as Jesus Christ in no way changed His Divine Nature or His Divine Essence. That remained wholly untouched and unchanged. That is what we mean when we say "without change". He "became man" by being incarnate and taking on the human nature and human essence. So He preserved His Divine Essence without alteration, but also took on the fullness of our human nature. The two Essences were not mixed or confused or hybridized; each remained distinct and preserved the properties proper to each. God's Divine Essence did not change in the slightest when the Son became man.

Jesus' Divine Essence did not become visible when He became man. God became visible, but not His Essence; God became visible by becoming incarnate in human flesh. His assumed humanity made Him visible, because humanity is visible, but His Divine Essence remained invisible.

But that is not how God manifested Himself to us according to scriptures.
Maybe not in the Baha'i Scriptures, no.

The Holy Soul of Christ was like a perfect Mirror, manifesting the Will and Attributes of God, hence the image of God appeared in this Mirror. Now because Jesus had also the physical body of a man, then His words and actions was in reality the Manifestation of the Will of God, hence the Word became flesh.
Actually, in the Baha'i view, it would be far more accurate to say that "the Word was reflected in flesh." Which is not what John 1:14 says. John 1:14 is actually an error in the eyes of the Baha'i, hence this long-winded and exhausting effort on the part of the Baha'i to try and spin the passage to say something that it simply does not.
 
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InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
...............What the Father wills, the Son wills also.......

Well, the scriptures says 'The Son cannot do anything by Himself', but it never says 'the Father cannot do anything by Himself'.


"By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me. ; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me." John 5:30


It is reasonable to conclude Jesus follows the command of the Father and not Father the command of Christ. The fact that Jesus says "He sent Me", clearly shows they are Two distinct Persons. Like Bible and early Christians say, Jesus is a Mirror showing the image of God. That is the best and logically acceptable way to discribe the relation.

No, it doesn't. Every Sunday during the Orthodox Divine Liturgy, in a practice dating back centuries and centuries ago, we sing "O Only-Begotten Son and Word of God, Who being immortal, willed for our salvation, to become incarnate of the holy Birthgiver of God and Ever-Virgin Mary, and without change became man..." God the Son's becoming incarnate as Jesus Christ in no way changed His Divine Nature or His Divine Essence. That remained wholly untouched and unchanged. That is what we mean when we say "without change". He "became man" by being incarnate and taking on the human nature and human essence. So He preserved His Divine Essence without alteration, but also took on the fullness of our human nature. The two Essences were not mixed or confused or hybridized; each remained distinct and preserved the properties proper to each. God's Divine Essence did not change in the slightest when the Son became man.

Jesus' Divine Essence did not become visible when He became man. God became visible, but not His Essence; God became visible by becoming incarnate in human flesh. His assumed humanity made Him visible, because humanity is visible, but His Divine Essence remained invisible.

Maybe not in the Baha'i Scriptures, no.

Actually, in the Baha'i view, it would be far more accurate to say that "the Word was reflected in flesh." Which is not what John 1:14 says. John 1:14 is actually an error in the eyes of the Baha'i, hence this long-winded and exhausting effort on the part of the Baha'i to try and spin the passage to say something that it simply does not.

The Orthodox Divine Liturgy is not a revealed Scripture. It is a poem put together as a prayer. I don't know what that proves. Our reference is Bible as a common source that we can discuss as authoritative Text. In fact the Orthodox Divine Liturgy contradicts itself. Once they believe God literally became Flesh, that is a change like it or not. to say 'without change' doesn't make it correct. It is like I say, oh God who became dark, and you are light.
 
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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
No, the Baha'i belief is not what the Bible says...
Let me put it to you this way: The Apostles never interpreted the Bible as you did, nor did their personal students ... So if what you say is true, then the Biblical authors didn't even know how to understand their own writings... Which means that Christians never had the truth to begin with, not even the Apostles of Jesus.

And not a single one of them for 1800 years has come up with the Baha'i position. Not the Apostles, not their students, not anyone else.
You are right. The NT has Jesus forgiving sins and saying that "before Abraham was I am". Then Thomas, not touching a ghost but a real person, says "My Lord and my God". But, still, because Baha'i don't believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ, why would they even consider him being God in the flesh? They take the NT as authoritative metaphors and symbols maybe. But, like the NT says that if Christ really didn't rise from the dead, Christians are still in their sins. So forget him being God, he didn't even have the power to save anyone. Because, according to the Baha'i interpretation, the resurrection was figurative. Which makes your statement that if the Baha'is are right, then Christians never had the truth to begin with. I don't know what's worse, just flat out saying that the NT is a bunch of baloney or saying that it authoritative and true... but just symbolically.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Well, the scriptures says 'The Son cannot do anything by Himself', but it never says 'the Father cannot do anything by Himself'.

"By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me. ; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me." John 5:30
This is because the Father is the Source of the Trinity; Jesus (the Son and Logos) is begotten of Him, and the Holy Spirit proceeds from Him. We Orthodox speak of the Father as being the arche of the Trinity--that is, its source. We also order the Father as first among the Persons of the Trinity--not in terms of dignity or power or divinity, but in terms of the relationship that exists between the three Persons. The three Persons (Father, Son AKA Jesus the Word of God, and the Holy Spirit) are all coequal in majesty, divinity and power, and co-eternal, yet in terms of the relationship between the three Persons, the Father enjoys primacy of place--not supremacy, but primacy.

It is reasonable to conclude Jesus follows the command of the Father and not Father the command of Christ. The fact that Jesus says "He sent Me", clearly shows they are Two distinct Persons. Like Bible and early Christians say, Jesus is a Mirror showing the image of God. That is the best and logically acceptable way to discribe the relation.
If you like, you may continue to attempt and demonstrate this to be the case. All I ask is that you try not to repeat the same tagline over and over, and not re-use evidences and arguments that have already been discussed.

The Orthodox Divine Liturgy is not a revealed Scripture. It is a poem put together as a prayer. I don't know what that proves. Our reference is Bible as a common source that we can discuss as authoritative Text.
No, our reference is the entirety of the Apostolic Tradition, the teachings of the Apostles that have been handed down both in written form (the Bible), and oral form (the vast majority of the Apostles' teachings and actions that were never written down). If you want to properly understand the Bible, you need to put it in the context of the entirety of the Apostolic Tradition, otherwise you're never going to get it right. The reason Christianity has tens of thousands of denominations is because all the other denominations have rejected the Tradition and invented their own man-made teachings. Only the Church has fully preserved the Tradition without alteration, addition or subtraction.

In fact the Orthodox Divine Liturgy contradicts itself.
No it does not. The Liturgy is properly understood by those with an education in the Christian faith. Those without the proper context in the Faith are going to misunderstand it. Just like the Bible; without being properly instructed, you will misinterpret it.
Once they believe God literally became Flesh, that is a change like it or not.
It is not a change in God's Divine Essence.
to say 'without change' doesn't make it correct. It is like I say, oh God who became dark, and you are light.
Except, God never ceases to be God. Jesus never ceased to be divine when He became human; he took on our humanity, but didn't stop being God. Your analogy assumes that God ceases to be light when He becomes dark. To modify your analogy, though I would have chosen better terms, Jesus (AKA God the Son) is light, and He becomes incarnate as dark. He unites the nature of light with the nature of dark within His one Person. He is at once both 100% light and 100% dark, by virtue of having these two natures. They do not mix together, but the light and dark (divine and human) natures each retain what is proper to their own natures. Jesus is originally light only, and His becoming incarnate as dark did not change His being light. He remains the same, because Who He is as light (or rather, as God) has not changed.
 
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Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
You are right. The NT has Jesus forgiving sins and saying that "before Abraham was I am". Then Thomas, not touching a ghost but a real person, says "My Lord and my God". But, still, because Baha'i don't believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ, why would they even consider him being God in the flesh? They take the NT as authoritative metaphors and symbols maybe. But, like the NT says that if Christ really didn't rise from the dead, Christians are still in their sins. So forget him being God, he didn't even have the power to save anyone. Because, according to the Baha'i interpretation, the resurrection was figurative. Which makes your statement that if the Baha'is are right, then Christians never had the truth to begin with. I don't know what's worse, just flat out saying that the NT is a bunch of baloney or saying that it authoritative and true... but just symbolically.
I would agree with the lot of this, and great insights on your part.

In the former case of calling the NT a bunch of baloney, the Baha'i would be being honest about what they actually think of Biblical teachings. It would also save them the hassle of performing mental and semantical gymnastics to come up with an even partially plausible argument, but have it all be blown away like so much straw by even the slightest critical comparison of Baha'i teaching to the Biblical text itself. In this case, flat-out saying that the New Testament got it wrong and that Jesus really taught something different would give the Baha'i a better case.

But to say that the NT's right, and then go and reinterpret and rewrite every verse of it is both insulting to Christians and a bewildering effort. The Baha'i don't need to base their teachings on the Scriptures of earlier religions; all they needed to do is what the Muslims did and say that the Scriptures and teachings of previous religions had been corrupted, and God had sent the restoration of His message in the form of the Baha'i Faith.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
You are right. The NT has Jesus forgiving sins and saying that "before Abraham was I am". Then Thomas, not touching a ghost but a real person, says "My Lord and my God". But, still, because Baha'i don't believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ, why would they even consider him being God in the flesh? They take the NT as authoritative metaphors and symbols maybe. But, like the NT says that if Christ really didn't rise from the dead, Christians are still in their sins. So forget him being God, he didn't even have the power to save anyone. Because, according to the Baha'i interpretation, the resurrection was figurative. Which makes your statement that if the Baha'is are right, then Christians never had the truth to begin with. I don't know what's worse, just flat out saying that the NT is a bunch of baloney or saying that it authoritative and true... but just symbolically.

I actually wouldn't go that far and say All Christians never had the truth to begin with. What we see in the writings of the early Christians is a diverse view with regards to the nature of Christ. But some of the views became eventually dominant view, and formed the doctrine of trinity. Most of these mainstream Christian leaders tried to destroy any other view that was different from theirs, or at least declared them false or heretic, For example Clement although a knowledgeable saint, but His work did not become canonical, and even considered heretic by some of the mainstreams, and was called heretic on the basis that Clement described Jesus as a Created Person. Even in later centuries we see some of the Christian leaders were so cruel to those Christians who had a different belief with regards to nature of the Three person, to the point that they burned one as recorded in history. Christ said that "the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light", signifying the waywardness of religious leaders of Christian Faith. I quote from Baha'u'llah:

"Hence, it is clear and manifest that by the words “the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven” is intended the waywardness of the divines, and the annulment of laws firmly established by divine Revelation, all of which, in symbolic language, have been foreshadowed by the Manifestation of God. None except the righteous shall partake of this cup, none but the godly can share therein. “The righteous shall drink of a cup tempered at the camphor fountain.”†
It is unquestionable that in every succeeding Revelation the “sun” and “moon” of the teachings, laws, commandments, and prohibitions which have been established in the preceding Dispensation, and which have overshadowed the people of that age, become darkened, that is, are exhausted, and cease to exert their influence. Consider now, had the people of the Gospel recognized the meaning of the symbolic terms “sun” and “moon,” had they sought, unlike the froward and perverse, enlightenment from Him Who is the Revealer of divine knowledge, they would have surely comprehended the purpose of these terms, and would not have become afflicted and oppressed by the darkness of their selfish desires. Yea, but since they have failed to acquire true knowledge from its very Source, they have perished in the perilous vale of waywardness and misbelief. They still have not awakened to perceive that all the signs foretold have been made manifest, that the promised Sun hath risen above the horizon of divine Revelation, and that the “sun” and “moon” of the teachings, the laws, and learning of a former Dispensation have darkened and set." Book of Certitude, p.14
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
I actually wouldn't go that far and say All Christians never had the truth to begin with. What we see in the writings of the early Christians is a diverse view with regards to the nature of Christ. But some of the views became eventually dominant view, and formed the doctrine of trinity. Most of these mainstream Christian leaders tried to destroy any other view that was different from theirs, or at least declared them false or heretic, For example Clement although a knowledgeable saint, but His work did not become canonical, and even considered heretic by some of the mainstreams, and was called heretic on the basis that Clement described Jesus as a Created Person.
Wrong. You are conflating St. Clement of Rome with Clement of Alexandria, who lived in the 200's. In either case, neither Clement called Jesus a created person. Yes, Clement of Rome is a Saint in both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, and his Epistle to the Corinthians almost made it into the Bible and was even included in the Codex Sinaiticus, one of the oldest Biblical manuscripts we have. No one has called St. Clement of Rome a heretic that I can think of. Clement of Alexandria is sketchy, though.

Even in later centuries we see some of the Christian leaders were so cruel to those Christians who had a different belief with regards to nature of the Three person, to the point that they burned one as recorded in history. Christ said that "the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light", signifying the waywardness of religious leaders of Christian Faith.
And the heretics did the same thing to the Orthodox. Yes, it was a terrible sin and should never have happened to either side, but we Orthodox also suffered greatly under heretics.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Wrong. You are conflating St. Clement of Rome with Clement of Alexandria, who lived in the 200's. In either case, neither Clement called Jesus a created person. Yes, Clement of Rome is a Saint in both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, and his Epistle to the Corinthians almost made it into the Bible and was even included in the Codex Sinaiticus, one of the oldest Biblical manuscripts we have. No one has called St. Clement of Rome a heretic that I can think of. Clement of Alexandria is sketchy, though.

And the heretics did the same thing to the Orthodox. Yes, it was a terrible sin and should never have happened to either side, but we Orthodox also suffered greatly under heretics.


Ok. But you know, sometimes those who are called Heretics, may actually be on the Right side. Consider the days of Jesus when He and His disciples were few, and the Jews called them Heretics, simply because They believed different than the Jwish Leaders. We need to be carefull about these things. ....
Everytime when denominations fought each other, both were wrong. I'm not saying debated. I'm saying those who killed the other group for having a different Christian belief.
Nothing can justify it their action, when they burnt that Christian who didn't believe Jesus was equal to God.
 
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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I actually wouldn't go that far and say All Christians never had the truth to begin with. What we see in the writings of the early Christians is a diverse view...
From their NT, what was the truth that Jesus brought to them? I agree that there is and was a lot of diverse views on every aspect of Christianity. However, the dominant view of Jesus dying on the cross to save sinners is based on their NT. It wasn't and isn't meant in a symbolic way. They believe it happened and Jesus came back to life.
...“the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven” is intended the waywardness of the divines, and the annulment of laws firmly established by divine Revelation...
It is unquestionable that in every succeeding Revelation the “sun” and “moon” of the teachings, laws, commandments, and prohibitions which have been established in the preceding Dispensation...are exhausted, and cease to exert their influence..." Book of Certitude, p.14
The Baha'i view is not based on the NT and takes the main purpose of Jesus' ministry away. The whole "saved by faith, not of works" thing. Is that symbolic? Is that something that was temporary until the next manifestation comes? Which was Mohammad. So all things taught by Jesus were superseded by the teachings of Islam?

To argue against the Trinity is small potatoes compared to what the Baha'is really believe about Jesus. That, apparently, he died, got buried and his followers only imagined he was resurrected. So not only does he get booted out of the Godhead, he's gone. His body is dead and buried. And, everything he taught about hell, the devil and getting saved was what? It was the "truth" for a few hundred years until the next manifestation? Or, according to Baha'i beliefs were those things ever the truth? So, again, what was the purpose of Jesus? What things did he establish?
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Ok. But you know, sometimes those who are called Heretics, may actually be on the Right side.
This is true. The Iconoclasts called us Orthodox heretics and persecuted us something awful--destroyed our churches, destroyed our icons, tortured us, killed us, and all with the help of the Byzantine Emperors. Yet the iconoclast heresy was ultimately defeated after generations of hardship and struggle, and today the first Sunday of Great Lent is called the Sunday of Orthodoxy, where we celebrate the triumph of Orthodoxy (and the restoration of icons) over the iconoclasts.

Consider the days of Jesus when He and His disciples were few, and the Jews called them Heretics, simply because They believed different than the Jwish Leaders. We need to be carefull about these things. ....
Yes, we do need to be careful, but we can clearly tell who is a heretic and who is not by looking at whether or not the teachings of the person or group in question line up with the Apostolic Tradition and the Faith. If not, then they have deviated from what Christ handed down to us.

Everytime when denominations fought each other, both were wrong. I'm not saying debated. I'm saying those who killed the other group for having a different Christian belief.
Nothing can justify it their action, when they burnt that Christian who didn't believe Jesus was equal to God.
Absolutely. It's like the line in my sig from St. Nektarios of Aegina, "Love should never be sacrificed for the sake of some dogmatic differences." I have no doubt Christ is repulsed by those who even think of committing such acts.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
From their NT, what was the truth that Jesus brought to them? I agree that there is and was a lot of diverse views on every aspect of Christianity. However, the dominant view of Jesus dying on the cross to save sinners is based on their NT. It wasn't and isn't meant in a symbolic way. They believe it happened and Jesus came back to life.
The Baha'i view is not based on the NT and takes the main purpose of Jesus' ministry away. The whole "saved by faith, not of works" thing. Is that symbolic? Is that something that was temporary until the next manifestation comes? Which was Mohammad. So all things taught by Jesus were superseded by the teachings of Islam?

To argue against the Trinity is small potatoes compared to what the Baha'is really believe about Jesus. That, apparently, he died, got buried and his followers only imagined he was resurrected. So not only does he get booted out of the Godhead, he's gone. His body is dead and buried. And, everything he taught about hell, the devil and getting saved was what? It was the "truth" for a few hundred years until the next manifestation? Or, according to Baha'i beliefs were those things ever the truth? So, again, what was the purpose of Jesus? What things did he establish?

The Scriptures were never written literally. Consider the Hebrew Scriptures. Many parts of it have Figurative meanings and contain mysteries of God. Their meaning and correct interpretations however was not revealed until Christ came. Likewise the New Testament contains many Figurative verses and contain mysteries of God. Their meaning and correct interpretation however was not revealed untill Baha'u'llah revealed them. The new testament was written such that they could bear it. Now we live in the Age of reasoning and have developed the capacity to be told more. Baha'u'llah therefore told us More.
Baha'u'llah wrote that the Christians Leaders clung to literal interpretations of Gospels, have failed to recognize the Truth in them. The ignorants among the Christian community following these leaders have also remaind far from the Truth.
Now I have to tell you after researching and discussing the Trinity Doctrine, I am certain that this Doctrine is the result of clinging to literal interpretations of Bible. Specially 'the word became flesh' was understood literally. Another example is the Doctrine of original sin. That is also result of clinging to literal interpretations. In both case it contradicts with Hebrew Scriptures. Therefore it can be said the contradictions between Religions is due to different interpretations.
 
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